Sharp tax hike on alcohol and tobacco effective immediately

[xylophone]

[dick dasterdly]

Makro today - the price of a montclair wine box has increased by around 100 bht.

[Dumbastheycome]

11 hours ago, xylophone said:

A product labelled "wine" has to be from the fermented juice of grapes, I can't see anywhere where it states that it has to be "direct fermentation of fresh fruit". However if you have some info in this, I'm always keen to learn, so please post.

 

Interesting point you make with regard to reconstituted grape juice however I think that the finished product is still regarded as wine?

 

It does become confusing as you can see by the text below because different countries apply different standards/interpretations, however there is a general nature running through them and that is that any wine which is produced from anything other than grapes has to be labelled as such, see examples below.

 

Within the European Union, the term "wine" in English and in translation is reserved exclusively for the fermented juice of grapes.^[4]

Within the United States, wine may include the fermented juice of any fruit^[5] or agricultural product, provided that it is between 7% and 24%alcohol by volume and intended for non-industrial use.^[6] With the exceptions of cider, perry, and sake, such non-grape wines are to label themselves by the word "wine" qualified by a truthful description of the originating product: "honey wine", "dandelion wine", (blended) "fruit wine", etc.^[7]

Other jurisdictions have similar rules dictating the range of products qualifying as "wine".^[8]

Tap  water  can be  detected  ( method  unknown to  myself ) in   grape  wine  products made   from  reconstituted grape  juice  concentrates. In  that   case   some  large   wineries  have  been snapped  attempting  to  fill   orders  for  "wine"  in excess  of   their  capacity  for  the  original genuine product  promoted via  acclaimations  in  Wine   Competitions 

Fruit    wines   generally  attract  less   excise  duties which  explains the  addition  of   fruit   juices  to  many   wines  imported  into  Thailand because   that minor  contamination alters  the  "purest"  definition despite   not  altering  the  alcohol  content.

The  probability  of  the   distinction  is  the attempt  for  protectionism  of European  grape  wine  products  which  have  incrementally  been  faced  with   declining   quality  versus  "New  World " wines  of  increasing   quality.

 

[xylophone]

10 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Tap  water  can be  detected  ( method  unknown to  myself ) in   grape  wine  products made   from  reconstituted grape  juice  concentrates.

Thank you for that information, of which I wasn't aware, however it does strengthen my original theory that what these companies do is to import the grape juice, not the concentrate which needs the addition of water.

 

Once they've got this they can then add whatever fruit juice/Roselle they want and get on with the fermentation, or at least that's the way I think it works here, but no one can be sure because it seems to be a closely guarded secret.

 

Certainly a lot of the practices in the "old world" wine production have been forbidden for some time now and stricter rules and regulations ensure that a lot of the stuff that used to happen just doesn't these days, although I'm sure there is the exception!

 

Having said that, there is still some leeway in the New World wines and in Australia, for example, some white wines are allowed to have the addition of other grapes, without this being notified on the label. For example a bottle labelled "sauvignon blanc" can have the addition of some semillon grapes (up to 20% I think) without this being mentioned on the label. Other wines can be blended with juice from Thompson's seedless grapes (yes the ones that make sultanas) for example, and so on, not aimed at deceiving the general public, but apparently to assist the wine producers/grape growers.

 

"Fruit    wines   generally  attract  less   excise  duties which  explains the  addition  of   fruit   juices  to  many   wines  imported  into  Thailand because   that minor  contamination alters  the  "purest"  definition despite   not  altering  the  alcohol  content"

 

Not too sure of the amount of fruit juice needed to enable the product to pass the excise duty regulations with regard to lower duties, but seem to remember it being more than minor contamination........again, I think it was covered in the Montclair thread.

 

[LatPhrao]

23 hours ago, xylophone said:

There were a couple of articles written on the subject when Montclair first hit the market and links to those are available in the Montclair wine thread. It stated categorically, from inside info by the looks of things, that the Roselle fruit (Hibiscus) was added to the wine and this particular "fruit" is well known as a colouring for drinks as well as being healthy!

 

What has never been clearly explained or discovered is exactly what is imported, whether it be bulk wine or grape juice. However trying to follow some sort of logic, it would be easier and cheaper to import grape juice and then add the fruit content to it in Thailand and ferment it here. Whereas importing bulk wine means that the addition of fruit juice could be quite problematic because the product is already fermented and finished – – so bulk grape juice would appear to be the cheapest and easiest route. However due to the secrecy surrounding the company and the product, perhaps we will never know.

 

I did notice on a box of Mar Y Sol that it described the contents as "a Chilean red wine" so it does pay homage to the origin of the product! Also on the back of all of the Montclair products you will notice the words "Fruit Wine" and if I recall correctly by international law those words have to be added to any wine which has an addition of 20% of fruit juice, however I find it extremely difficult to think that they would add 20% Roselle juice to this mix??

 

Maybe as you allude to, this is just a ruse to get round the taxes and duty payable, however they may have been "hoist by their own petard" by adding something to the wine to get round the taxes, but found that they have to disclose it!

 

There are many links and articles on this whole subject on the Montclair thread and it may be worth you spending some time scouting through it – – there is a lot of it, so happy reading.

 

 

Roselle (hibiscus)

 

Hibiscus or Roselle juice in Thai is…….กระเจี๊ยบแดง krajiab daeng, The red calyces of the plant are increasingly exported to the United States and Europe, particularly Germany, where they are used as food colourings.

 

Red roselle calyx has been reported to be rich in anthocyanins and it contains a mixture of organic acids such as citric, malic and tartaric acids18,25. Karppa et al.14 reported that anthocyanins vary in colour from pink to blue and violet. These characteristics suggest that roselle calyx extract may be a suitable raw material for the production of coloured wines. The objective of this study was to evaluate the quality attributes of wine produced from roselle calyx extract.

 

Good research and I look forward to checking the Montclair thread.   Regards the Roselle extract addition (I doubt there's really a 'juice' but more likely an extracted elixir), I guess a winemaker dealing with light, poorly colored red wine might resort to it but there is so much wine out there in the market with good color and character it's a stretch that a winemaker would tie himself and the product on the shelf to something that needed color.

I will stick with my ruse for taxation purposes and paying a flat, at the time, 84 baht per bottles.  This new tax scheme may of removed the incentive all together if Mar y Sol price on the shelf has actually dropped. Maybe Siam Winery et al got what they wanted because they'll be treated like domestic production and the rest of the wines coming in labelled 'fruit wine' will fade away and they'll get consideration as they're under 1,000 baht per bottle.  Time and the wine shelves will tell the story.

To the other point about the type of juice  or wine imported:  fresh juice is a once a year opportunity, must be done at the harvest and is highly unstable (easy to start fermenting on its own).  For a business it then comes down to importing concentrated grape juice (now it can be high quality), or bulk wine.  Advantages to both methods.  If a winemaker wanted to add "fruit juice" which would have a % of residual sugar to an imported bulk wine then they would simply add and then sterile filter it into the bottle which would make it stable.  Not a big deal to do in a modern winery.

[LatPhrao]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

Thank you for that information, of which I wasn't aware, however it does strengthen my original theory that what these companies do is to import the grape juice, not the concentrate which needs the addition of water.

 

Once they've got this they can then add whatever fruit juice/Roselle they want and get on with the fermentation, or at least that's the way I think it works here, but no one can be sure because it seems to be a closely guarded secret.

 

Certainly a lot of the practices in the "old world" wine production have been forbidden for some time now and stricter rules and regulations ensure that a lot of the stuff that used to happen just doesn't these days, although I'm sure there is the exception!

 

Having said that, there is still some leeway in the New World wines and in Australia, for example, some white wines are allowed to have the addition of other grapes, without this being notified on the label. For example a bottle labelled "sauvignon blanc" can have the addition of some semillon grapes (up to 20% I think) without this being mentioned on the label. Other wines can be blended with juice from Thompson's seedless grapes (yes the ones that make sultanas) for example, and so on, not aimed at deceiving the general public, but apparently to assist the wine producers/grape growers.

 

"Fruit    wines   generally  attract  less   excise  duties which  explains the  addition  of   fruit   juices  to  many   wines  imported  into  Thailand because   that minor  contamination alters  the  "purest"  definition despite   not  altering  the  alcohol  content"

 

Not too sure of the amount of fruit juice needed to enable the product to pass the excise duty regulations with regard to lower duties, but seem to remember it being more than minor contamination........again, I think it was covered in the Montclair thread.

 

By definition a wine made from reconstituted grape juice concentrate has a huge amount of water added to it before fermentation.  The water would be analyzed to be pure and would be sterile filtered before adding to the concentrate.  This is the way it's done, common practice.

 

[LatPhrao]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:05 AM, xylophone said:

A product labelled "wine" has to be from the fermented juice of grapes, I can't see anywhere where it states that it has to be "direct fermentation of fresh fruit". However if you have some info in this, I'm always keen to learn, so please post.

 

Interesting point you make with regard to reconstituted grape juice however I think that the finished product is still regarded as wine?

 

It does become confusing as you can see by the text below because different countries apply different standards/interpretations, however there is a general nature running through them and that is that any wine which is produced from anything other than grapes has to be labelled as such, see examples below.

 

Within the European Union, the term "wine" in English and in translation is reserved exclusively for the fermented juice of grapes.^[4]

Within the United States, wine may include the fermented juice of any fruit^[5] or agricultural product, provided that it is between 7% and 24%alcohol by volume and intended for non-industrial use.^[6] With the exceptions of cider, perry, and sake, such non-grape wines are to label themselves by the word "wine" qualified by a truthful description of the originating product: "honey wine", "dandelion wine", (blended) "fruit wine", etc.^[7]

Other jurisdictions have similar rules dictating the range of products qualifying as "wine".^[8]

Wine made from grape juice concentrate has the same distinction as wine made from freshly crushed grape juice.

[xylophone]

24 minutes ago, LatPhrao said:

To the other point about the type of juice  or wine imported:  fresh juice is a once a year opportunity, must be done at the harvest and is highly unstable (easy to start fermenting on its own).  

Actually, it's not that hard because the juice can be pasteurised to make it stable and also chilled to stop any fermentation.

 

So there are a couple of theories posted so far, one that if water is added to reconstitute concentrated grape juice, it can be detected and therefore not allowed OR concentrated grape juice is imported and reconstituted with filtered water, for example.

 

I really don't believe that they import the bulk wine because the addition of fruit juice to a finished product would be easily detectable and quite probably unstable as well. However having said that I could well be wrong, but it would seem to be an easy way to lower the cost of the product by bringing in grape juice in whatever form and then fermenting it here along with whatever is added (Roselle, for example).

 

As has been mentioned, Roselle doesn't actually have a fruit, but a Calyx and it is this which is used in drinks and not only is it very healthy (and can be a laxative!) It does give a nice red colour to the drink, so it would be most likely that a whole bunch of these calyx are added to finish the product and whether they are fermented with it or not, who knows? And what about the white wine??

 

I do know that some of the red wine which is produced in Vietnam and sold in the Wine Connection stores is a mixture of grapes and some strawberry juice, whereas the white wine has grapes and some grapefruit juice. Previously passionfruit juice was added to the white wines and juice of "dark fruits" to the red wine.

 

Fascinating subject, this especially when we really don't know what this "Fruit Wine" consists of or how it is made!

 

 

[LatPhrao]

On 9/21/2017 at 11:50 AM, xylophone said:

Actually, it's not that hard because the juice can be pasteurised to make it stable and also chilled to stop any fermentation.

 

So there are a couple of theories posted so far, one that if water is added to reconstitute concentrated grape juice, it can be detected and therefore not allowed OR concentrated grape juice is imported and reconstituted with filtered water, for example.

 

I really don't believe that they import the bulk wine because the addition of fruit juice to a finished product would be easily detectable and quite probably unstable as well. However having said that I could well be wrong, but it would seem to be an easy way to lower the cost of the product by bringing in grape juice in whatever form and then fermenting it here along with whatever is added (Roselle, for example).

 

As has been mentioned, Roselle doesn't actually have a fruit, but a Calyx and it is this which is used in drinks and not only is it very healthy (and can be a laxative!) It does give a nice red colour to the drink, so it would be most likely that a whole bunch of these calyx are added to finish the product and whether they are fermented with it or not, who knows? And what about the white wine??

 

I do know that some of the red wine which is produced in Vietnam and sold in the Wine Connection stores is a mixture of grapes and some strawberry juice, whereas the white wine has grapes and some grapefruit juice. Previously passionfruit juice was added to the white wines and juice of "dark fruits" to the red wine.

 

Fascinating subject, this especially when we really don't know what this "Fruit Wine" consists of or how it is made!

 

 

I leave this dialogue with just a couple of comments.  One, the Thailand 'fruit wine' category is a hoax and an insult to international standards of wine labelling / product information for the consumer perpetrated by Thai government officials and participated in by some foreign wine producers and wine distributors in order to get a low cost wine on the shelves and move volume to an unwitting public.   Two, you pasteurize grape juice and you destroy the quality of the future wine, both aromas and flavors.  Transporting anything in a refrigerated container raises the shipping cost considerably.  So you lower the quality and you raise the costs.    Three, importing grape juice concentrate and reconstituting with sterile filtered tap water free of chlorine or other contaminants is the lowest cost method. Standard method.   If bulk wine (which is not a finished product until it's prepared for bottling and put in a bottle) was imported and fruit juice was added the wine would have to be sterile filtered, a very common practice in winemaking, before bottling to guarantee stability.  A higher cost of product but you don't need to have a wine operation capable of performing fermentation, and post fermentation aging.  Expensive capital outlay and also labor costs.   

Who in the world do you think would be detecting it, in any case?  Whatever is done, it's done in the dark cellar and sent to the retail shelf. As long as the wine isn't fermenting in the bottle or dropping sediment you don't know anything.  A sophisticated laboratory might be able to detect some compound unique to a particular type of fruit and if the wine resulted in being sweeter that too.  But nobody is looking, nobody knows outside the Thai wineries and nobody is telling.

Have  a glass of one of Belleville's red or white wine blends from France, bottled in Vietnam (no fruit added) and slipped across the border into Thailand.  Buy at 295 baht per bottle and enjoy.   Cheers.

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, LatPhrao said:

I leave this dialogue with just a couple of comments.  One, the Thailand 'fruit wine' category is a hoax and an insult to international standards of wine labelling / product information for the consumer perpetrated by Thai government officials and participated in by some foreign wine producers and wine distributors in order to get a low cost wine on the shelves and move volume to an unwitting public.   Two, you pasteurize grape juice and you destroy the quality of the future wine, both aromas and flavors.  Transporting anything in a refrigerated container raises the shipping cost considerably.  So you lower the quality and you raise the costs.    Three, importing grape juice concentrate and reconstituting with sterile filtered tap water free of chlorine or other contaminants is the lowest cost method. Standard method.   If bulk wine (which is not a finished product until it's prepared for bottling and put in a bottle) was imported and fruit juice was added the wine would have to be sterile filtered, a very common practice in winemaking, before bottling to guarantee stability.  A higher cost of product but you don't need to have a wine operation capable of performing fermentation, and post fermentation aging.  Expensive capital outlay and also labor costs.   

Who in the world do you think would be detecting it, in any case?  Whatever is done, it's done in the dark cellar and sent to the retail shelf. As long as the wine isn't fermenting in the bottle or dropping sediment you don't know anything.  A sophisticated laboratory might be able to detect some compound unique to a particular type of fruit and if the wine resulted in being sweeter that too.  But nobody is looking, nobody knows outside the Thai wineries and nobody is telling.

Have  a glass of one of Belleville's red or white wine blends from France, bottled in Vietnam (no fruit added) and slipped across the border into Thailand.  Buy at 295 baht per bottle and enjoy.   Cheers.

You make some interesting points and unfortunately neither of us know exactly what is going on although I would not put it past the Thai government to pull something like this or the major wine producer to do it in cohorts with them. Having said that similar products are now on the shelves of UK supermarkets, so the Thai connection probably doesn't come into it.

 

I believe it is grape juice which is imported whether it be concentrated or in another form and then "doctored" here.

 

Of course then you have the Australian, French and South African exports of wine which already have the fruit juice added and which is clearly stated on the box/cask.

 

Pasteurisation doesn't necessarily damage the wine because there are French wines which are pasteurised when finished (or have been in the past) and sold on the shelves of retailers. True, low quality wine, but wine all the same, but there again so is Mont Clair so nothing is spoilt

 

As I said I guess we'll never know, although I think you'll find that Bellville has fruit juice added and if you look carefully on the back label you will see the words "Fruit Wine"........ having said that, I have tasted it, and it is an okay swigger.

 

Luckily, through some contacts here I am able to buy some very good Australian, Italian and occasionally French wines which would normally retail for around 1500 baht, for around the 500 baht mark, although when that supply runs out (hopefully never) I need to look at alternatives, and that could be a problem!!

Edited September 22, 2017 by xylophone

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Checked my tracking beer lists again tonight with the online stores for Tops, Tesco and Villa markets.

 

Still no retail pricing changes for those outlets vs their prices before the new tax rates went into effect.

 

[Pib]

I just wonder if they had so much stock in the warehouse under the old excise rate that they are still selling that stock so price have not changed.

 

Not until they deplete that stock and start selling new stock procured under the new excise rate that the price would possibly change.

 

In an earlier post I said a case of Leo beer big bottles at the Lotus I use was Bt588 before the new rate and a few days after the new rate the price was Bt584...went down 4 baht.  However I noticed a few days later that their stock of beer on the store shelves was really low or Leo and Chang cases....I mean like I had never seen it this low....almost out of stock...no normal at all for this Lotus store....but the price was still Bt584 for a Leo case. 

 

Now I haven't been back to since to see if they have restocked and check the latest prices....maybe I'll go tomorrow out of curiosity .

 

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Pib

[chowny77]

Not sure if this has been covered already but since the tax increase my cigs have gone down in price per pack. So for over the last year I was paying more than I am now. Got to love the logic in Thailand!

[AloisAmrein]

Thai wine? Not drinkable, any cheap wine in Italy for 1 € / liter is a deliquacy compared with it.

Edited September 22, 2017 by AloisAmrein

[Bastos60]

1 hour ago, chowny77 said:

Not sure if this has been covered already but since the tax increase my cigs have gone down in price per pack. So for over the last year I was paying more than I am now. Got to love the logic in Thailand!

What brand were you smoking?

[TheLobster]

6 hours ago, Pib said:

I just wonder if they had so much stock in the warehouse under the old excise rate that they are still selling that stock so price have not changed.

 

Not until they deplete that stock and start selling new stock procured under the new excise rate that the price would possibly change.

 

In an earlier post I said a case of Leo beer big bottles at the Lotus I use was Bt588 before the new rate and a few days after the new rate the price was Bt584...went down 4 baht.  However I noticed a few days later that their stock of beer on the store shelves was really low or Leo and Chang cases....I mean like I had never seen it this low....almost out of stock...no normal at all for this Lotus store....but the price was still Bt584 for a Leo case. 

 

Now I haven't been back to since to see if they have restocked and check the latest prices....maybe I'll go tomorrow out of curiosity .

 

 

Leo large bottles have gone up to 650THB/box in our local Tesco Lotus Express.

[Pib]

What was the price before?  And isn't their Express stores prices normally higher than their big stores?

 

[tomacht8]

Next the VAT goes up from 7%  to  8%.

 

[chowny77]

22 hours ago, Bastos60 said:

What brand were you smoking?

Wonder. Before they were 63 baht but now down to 60

[xylophone]

LatPhrao said.......Have  a glass of one of Belleville's red or white wine blends from France, bottled in Vietnam

 

Some more info on Belleville wines, which I have tasted and they are a cut above the likes of Montclair, and would be my fall-back position should the wines here become even more expensive and my current supply dries up.

 

Belleville…………….

A unique collection of fruit wines designed for the SE Asian market which are perfect compliments to the SE Asian lifestyle offering affordable an easy to drink collection of wines blended with fresh fruits.

From our modern winemaking facility in Dalat Vietnam Belleville Wines are shipped to Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar as well as enjoyed in Vietnam.

Look for scents of blackberry and mulberry in our blended red wines and passion fruit and pineapple in our whites.

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by xylophone

[Pib]

On 9/22/2017 at 8:16 PM, Pib said:

I just wonder if they had so much stock in the warehouse under the old excise rate that they are still selling that stock so price have not changed.

 

Not until they deplete that stock and start selling new stock procured under the new excise rate that the price would possibly change.

 

In an earlier post I said a case of Leo beer big bottles at the Lotus I use was Bt588 before the new rate and a few days after the new rate the price was Bt584...went down 4 baht.  However I noticed a few days later that their stock of beer on the store shelves was really low or Leo and Chang cases....I mean like I had never seen it this low....almost out of stock...no normal at all for this Lotus store....but the price was still Bt584 for a Leo case. 

 

Now I haven't been back to since to see if they have restocked and check the latest prices....maybe I'll go tomorrow out of curiosity .

Yesterday I checked the price of a case of Leo bottles in the Lotus I always use.   They have fully restocked with Leo...price is still Bt584...4 baht lower than when the new excise rate when into effect.    But I still wonder if the new excise rate is went fully into effect for beer...guess time will tell.

 

Now without a doubt, at least in the Lotus store, based on stock they keep on display Leo is the most popular beer sold because approx 40% of the store's display stock is Leo.  Then approx 30% Chang (we are now up to 70% total) and the remaining 30% spread across all the other beer brands like Singha, Heineken, etc.    Yesterday the store had no Chang stock and they just put Leo beer there instead.  Guess there must a shortage of Chang beer right now since it one of the lower cost beers---but not that much lower than Leo...only a few baht lower.

[NanLaew]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yesterday I checked the price of a case of Leo bottles in the Lotus I always use.   They have fully restocked with Leo...price is still Bt584...4 baht lower than when the new excise rate when into effect.    But I still wonder if the new excise rate is went fully into effect for beer...guess time will tell.

 

Now without a doubt, at least in the Lotus store, based on stock they keep on display Leo is the most popular beer sold because approx 40% of the store's display stock is Leo.  Then approx 30% Chang (we are now up to 70% total) and the remaining 30% spread across all the other beer brands like Singha, Heineken, etc.    Yesterday the store had no Chang stock and they just put Leo beer there instead.  Guess there must a shortage of Chang beer right now since it one of the lower cost beers---but not that much lower than Leo...only a few baht lower.

Why doesn't the TV news team change the rather click-batish deceptive title to this thread as it patently obvious that after 10 days and 44 pages, beyond the opportunistic mom & pop shops, there's been absolutely NO immediate OR significant tax hike.

[Pib]

I asked the same question to news outlets like CNN, FoxNews, BBC, Bangkok Post, The Nation, etc., and they all said if they didn't bait the headline a lot less people would visit/watch them meaning less ad revenue.  Summary: money.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Pib

[anto]

My already cheap local man now sells Large Chang for B52 ,a B2  increase .Boxed wine 4 lt i buy at Rimping seems around the same B900 .

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Why doesn't the TV news team change the rather click-batish deceptive title to this thread as it patently obvious that after 10 days and 44 pages, beyond the opportunistic mom & pop shops, there's been absolutely NO immediate OR significant tax hike.

I'm assuming that most retailers stocked up on fags and alcoholic drinks as soon as they heard about the proposed tax increases?

 

Had to laugh though when noticing a few days ago that my local Makro had increased the Montclair wine box price by approx. 100 bht - whereas yesterday it was back to the old price as the local 'family stores' were still charging the old price !

[sturdyd]

Just today I bought a pack of L&M Blue and was stunned to see the price had gone up 25 baht. At the risk of inviting lots of anti-smoking posts, I'd like to ask what brands others are smoking. On my first visit to Thailand many years ago there was a brand I liked named "More". I don't know if they're still available since the cigarette displays are all obscured. What I'm asking is what are some good brands of cigarette available here?

[BangkokNicky]

2 minutes ago, sturdyd said:

Just today I bought a pack of L&M Blue and was stunned to see the price had gone up 25 baht. At the risk of inviting lots of anti-smoking posts, I'd like to ask what brands others are smoking. On my first visit to Thailand many years ago there was a brand I liked named "More". I don't know if they're still available since the cigarette displays are all obscured. What I'm asking is what are some good brands of cigarette available here?

iscore here as it doesn't give me heartburn like other brands these days with the shit they put in them but i should really stop but it's hard for a smoker who has been smoking for the last 24 years .. but back in the uk benson and hedges gold

[Jack Mountain]

Wonder(red)

[Techno Viking]

1 hour ago, sturdyd said:

Just today I bought a pack of L&M Blue and was stunned to see the price had gone up 25 baht. At the risk of inviting lots of anti-smoking posts, I'd like to ask what brands others are smoking. On my first visit to Thailand many years ago there was a brand I liked named "More". I don't know if they're still available since the cigarette displays are all obscured. What I'm asking is what are some good brands of cigarette available here?

interesting, I dropped in my local mom and pop store today to buy a sleeve of L&M blue and price was the same. I asked when price is going up and she said maybe next year.

[tomta]

LM Daeng up from 87 to 99 baht at the 7 today. 5 litre Mont Clair unchanged as of a few days ago at Tesco at 969 baht. Old stock I guess