British expats face 'cliff edge' in pensions and insurance after Brexit

[webfact]

British expats face 'cliff edge' in pensions and insurance after Brexit

 

Minister calls for urgent action to ensure British pensioners in EU do not find payments stopped after Brexit

 

Julia Kollewe

 

LONDON: -- The chair of an influential parliamentary committee is calling for urgent action to ensure that British pensioners living in Spain or other EU countries do not find their payments stopped after Britain leaves the EU in 2019.

 

UK firms may not be legally able to pay out personal pension or insurance contracts to UK expats and other citizens living in the EU after Brexit, Nicky Morgan, chair of the Treasury select committee, wrote in a letter to the chancellor, Philip Hammond. She asked whether the problem would be discussed during the first phase of Britain’s exit negotiations with the EU.

 

At the moment, so-called passporting rights are used by many insurers in the UK and the rest of the EU to sell pensions, insurance and savings products across borders. Unless an agreement is struck between the UK government and the EU, passporting will end on Brexit day, and insurers would face the stark choice of either breaking the contract or the law.

 

Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/18/british-expats-face-cliff-edge-in-pensions-and-insurance-after-brexit

 

-- The Guardian 2017-09-19

[puck2]

There are Brexeteers who endlessly complained about EU bureaucracy .

 

EU laws made it possible that --->

<....> Currently a UK business are able to provide a range of financial services anywhere in the EU, and in the wider European Economic Area (EEA), while being based in the UK and regulated by UK authorities. This is because businesses offering financial services have ‘passporting’ rights which allow them to offer financial services to the rest of the EEA (28 EU members plus Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein) while only having to follow one set of regulations.<....>

 

<…...> Though financial services are likely, after the initial shock of uncertainty, to continue to grow and be a significant part of the UK economy, the reduced access, and the moving of some services will mean that compared to remaining in the EEA (whether or not we stay in the EU) to contribution of financial services to the UK economy will be smaller.

A report by PwC estimated that cost of relocating services alone could have a -0.4 per cent impact on UK GDP by 2030 and the barriers to trade cause by the loss of passporting rights could reduce the contribution of financial services by between 0.6 and 2.2 percent. This is turn could mean between 70,000 and 100,000 less jobs in the short run, and 10,000 to 30,000 less jobs by 2030.<....>

 

from:

http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by-topic/will-uk-financial-services-suffer-from-losing-passporting-rights-after-brexit/

 

 

 

[hansnl]

Wonder where this article originates?

Also, it is the companies getting the lid on their noses.

Well, feel free to open an office somewhere in Europe to continue selling your products.

I guess the British expats can go on getting the money, by British bank, by ATM, by European bank.

Wouldn't be a problem I think.

[Airbagwill]

Pensioners seem to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

Firstly the dive in the value of the pound and the increase in value of the Euro will squeeze 10 to 20% off the real value of their pensions.

 

Secondly the UK will have to renegotiate pensions with either the EU or even individual countries...in some countries they get the various increase in govt pensions, but in other countries - like Oz the pensions are frozen at one level.

 

I also don't think the govt has as yet figured out the numbers of pensioners who will be migrating back to the UK in the next few years as their pension funds become increasingly worthless.

[Laughing Gravy]

55 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I also don't think the govt has as yet figured out the numbers of pensioners who will be migrating back to the UK in the next few years as their pension funds become increasingly worthless

I imagine it would be a similar amount that the Spanish would be leaving the UK employment market. Or they could say what we do for your citizens, you do for us.

 

As someone who lives in Thailand I can't have much sympathy for those in Spain as pensioners here from the UK get nothing extra.

 

It seems a week of project fear. Sadly some people buy into it far to easily.

 

 

[joebrown]

42 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I imagine it would be a similar amount that the Spanish would be leaving the UK employment market. Or they could say what we do for your citizens, you do for us.

 

As someone who lives in Thailand I can't have much sympathy for those in Spain as pensioners here from the UK get nothing extra.

 

It seems a week of project fear. Sadly some people buy into it far to easily.

 

 

I'm in Thailand and have had a 'frozen' pension for the past 6 years, due to the UK government's discrimination against those pensioners not residing in the EU and designated territories. With Brexit looming I wonder whether pensioners currently residing in the EU will still qualify for increases? Also, if they still qualify for increases, then surely they cannot justify any further discrimination against pensioners in Thailand.

[peterpop]

6 minutes ago, joebrown said:

I'm in Thailand and have had a 'frozen' pension for the past 6 years, due to the UK government's discrimination against those pensioners not residing in the EU and designated territories. With Brexit looming I wonder whether pensioners currently residing in the EU will still qualify for increases? Also, if they still qualify for increases, then surely they cannot justify any further discrimination against pensioners in Thailand.

The Government has confirmed that British Pensioners in EU countries will get all the usual benefits including the routine upgrading of pensions after BREXIT.  People like us, resident and retired in Thailand remain frozen

[RichardColeman]

If it's good enough to freeze the pensions of people living here, it's fair to do the same to Euro ex-pats ! You are afterall living abroad. (It's wrong to freeze any pension, in my opinion though and the process should be stopped)

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I imagine it would be a similar amount that the Spanish would be leaving the UK employment market. Or they could say what we do for your citizens, you do for us.

 

As someone who lives in Thailand I can't have much sympathy for those in Spain as pensioners here from the UK get nothing extra.

 

It seems a week of project fear. Sadly some people buy into it far to easily.

 

 

The article is about personal pensions and insurance, not the state pension

[baansgr]

18 minutes ago, joebrown said:

I'm in Thailand and have had a 'frozen' pension for the past 6 years, due to the UK government's discrimination against those pensioners not residing in the EU and designated territories. With Brexit looming I wonder whether pensioners currently residing in the EU will still qualify for increases? Also, if they still qualify for increases, then surely they cannot justify any further discrimination against pensioners in Thailand.

If there isn't a  reciprocal agreement you wont get an increase, its not discrimination...but this is just more scare nonsense from some nobody.

[manchega]

ah, I thought it was going to be a post about how british expats have been jumping from high places.

[R123]

I wonder how long it will be, if at all, when those who voted for Brexit will come to realize that their vote is the same as turkeys voting for Xmas.....

[manchega]

Well, I disagree, since in principal it 9brexit)could be very good. 

However, I just know based on history of UK government what could be very good and advantageous will end up being a disaster steered by the most incompetent, who are more incompetent than someone attempting to be incompetent.

 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I imagine it would be a similar amount that the Spanish would be leaving the UK employment market. Or they could say what we do for your citizens, you do for us.

 

As someone who lives in Thailand I can't have much sympathy for those in Spain as pensioners here from the UK get nothing extra.

 

It seems a week of project fear. Sadly some people buy into it far to easily.

 

 

And there you hit the nail on the head!  Many working EU citizens living in the UK now will have to leave, robbing the UK of the taxes they pay.  In their place back come the pensioners who don't pay tax but are a serious drain on the NHS.  And let's not forget that many of those EU citizens work in the NHS.

 

I am sure that living in Thailand you don't care about ex-pats living in Spain and clearly you are not concerned about the state of the UK after Brexit either.  It is predicted that if no deal is done and Britain leaves without one then the pound will drop to near parity with the US dollar.  Maybe then the reality will hit home.

[champers]

35 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

If it's good enough to freeze the pensions of people living here, it's fair to do the same to Euro ex-pats ! You are afterall living abroad. (It's wrong to freeze any pension, in my opinion though and the process should be stopped)

The Labour Party manifesto in June stated that they would end the freeze on expat state pensions.

[bkk_mike]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I imagine it would be a similar amount that the Spanish would be leaving the UK employment market. Or they could say what we do for your citizens, you do for us.

 

As someone who lives in Thailand I can't have much sympathy for those in Spain as pensioners here from the UK get nothing extra.

 

It seems a week of project fear. Sadly some people buy into it far to easily.

 

 

There's significantly more UK nationals living in Spain than Spanish nationals living in the UK. Something over a third of a million. It's Poles that you're thinking of where there's significantly more Poles living in the UK than British people living in Poland.

 

Add in that Spain (unlike Cyprus and Malta, for instance), never signed a reciprocal agreement with the UK, so, in theory, pensions in Spain will get frozen in the same way as it already is for pensioners who've emigrated to Canada, Australia, New Zealand or Thailand, for example. (Unless the deal to continue uprating pensions made last week passes the UK and EU parliaments - and Westminster keeps it's word after the quarter of a million British pensioners in Australia take them to court over the double standard - it's a large number of people to get in the way of a UK-Australia free trade agreement for instance).

 

But the bigger issue isn't actually any of that. It's if EHIC stops, and UK pensioners in Spain stop being covered by the Spanish equivalent of the NHS. Private healthcare isn't cheap if you stop being covered under the government scheme and a lot of UK pensioners went to Spain because it was cheaper than being retired in the UK because of the lower cost of living, and lower energy costs (i.e. less money spent on heating).

 

You chose to move to a country where you knew the pension would be frozen (or you didn't realise, and stayed here anyway). They didn't. They moved to a country where, under EU law, they still had free healthcare, and still got the cost of living pension increases each year.

[gamini]

27 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

And there you hit the nail on the head!  Many working EU citizens living in the UK now will have to leave, robbing the UK of the taxes they pay.  In their place back come the pensioners who don't pay tax but are a serious drain on the NHS.  And let's not forget that many of those EU citizens work in the NHS.

 

I am sure that living in Thailand you don't care about ex-pats living in Spain and clearly you are not concerned about the state of the UK after Brexit either.  It is predicted that if no deal is done and Britain leaves without one then the pound will drop to near parity with the US dollar.  Maybe then the reality will hit home.

Most of us who live here like me have made Thailand our home. I have no interest in the UK and I have no investments or property. But many others seem to be living here and in the UK at the same time. That is the big problem for them. I wisely sold all my UK investments when I left the UK for good and got BT76 for the GBP. I invested in some good Thai shares like Bumrungrad and a few others and I am far better off financially than I would have been in the UK.

[maxcorrigan]

2 hours ago, baansgr said:

If there isn't a  reciprocal agreement you wont get an increase, its not discrimination...but this is just more scare nonsense from some nobody.

What is this "reciprocal agreement" i heard that they get the increases in Philippines, but not Australia, expats in the USA get the increase, but not Thailand! 

[david555]

2 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

If it's good enough to freeze the pensions of people living here, it's fair to do the same to Euro ex-pats ! You are afterall living abroad. (It's wrong to freeze any pension, in my opinion though and the process should be stopped)

My pension is already 8 years updated with the rise of living costs while living in Thailand officially....it is  called "index" in my country ..... but it is a E.U country pension .... from that   " bad    bad"   E.U. .....    I think many Brit  shall regret to leave the E.U rules ...

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

Most of us who live here like me have made Thailand our home. I have no interest in the UK and I have no investments or property. But many others seem to be living here and in the UK at the same time. That is the big problem for them. I wisely sold all my UK investments when I left the UK for good and got BT76 for the GBP. I invested in some good Thai shares like Bumrungrad and a few others and I am far better off financially than I would have been in the UK.

It seems you did the right thing for you and good luck to you.  I lived in Thailand for nearly 14 years and in South East Asia for over twenty.  Like you I didn't pay too much attention to the politics in the UK when I wasn't living there.  But of course then there was no threat to the stability of the country as there is now.  We now live in the UK after needing a proper education for our son and being disillusioned by the decline in Thailand in general.  But even if we were not living in the UK I would still care about what is happening to my country.  I have relatives and friends in the UK, all with children growing up it is their future that is in jeopardy.

 

Maybe one day you may wish to return too and then it would matter. 

[lungbing]

2 hours ago, champers said:

The Labour Party manifesto in June stated that they would end the freeze on expat state pensions.

They will say anything to get your vote.  Then when they are power they will change their minds.

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, champers said:

The Labour Party manifesto in June stated that they would end the freeze on expat state pensions.

Yes I am afraid that none of the pledges from any of the parties can be believed anymore.  It really is just about saying anything that they think will get them votes.  Slowly people are waking up to the reality that politicians promise everything but deliver virtually nothing.

[The manic]

Utter rubbish. Just a people receive their pensions paid into Thai Banks so they can into European banks. Or the pensions can be paid to  UK bank then transferred. 

[Laughing Gravy]

14 hours ago, bkk_mike said:

You chose to move to a country where you knew the pension would be frozen (or you didn't realise, and stayed here anyway). They didn't. They moved to a country where, under EU law, they still had free healthcare, and still got the cost of living pension increases each year.

Yes I did and I personally am not going to rely on the state pension. But like the change in retirement age you can't rely on any government. When you move to a country you have to expect change. for instance if I lose my job I have a week to go. Using the argument of I expect everything to stay the same is weak IMHO. Besides that the outcome is not decided yet of what will happen. Still lots of if's, could be, maybe. I will stick by my, we will do the same to your citizens and you do the same for ours.

 

14 hours ago, bkk_mike said:

There's significantly more UK nationals living in Spain than Spanish nationals living in the UK. Something over a third of a million

I was referring to workers than those retired.

[Laughing Gravy]

16 hours ago, joebrown said:

I'm in Thailand and have had a 'frozen' pension for the past 6 years, due to the UK government's discrimination against those pensioners not residing in the EU and designated territories. With Brexit looming I wonder whether pensioners currently residing in the EU will still qualify for increases? Also, if they still qualify for increases, then surely they cannot justify any further discrimination against pensioners in Thailand.

I understand and have sympathy for you. It is not just Thailand but expats in other countries.

 

The EU court ruled on that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8568970.stm

 

With the amount of expats overseas now it would be a good vote winner for a political party to remove that but I wont hold my breath. A bit like relying on the state pension.

[rockingrobin]

17 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I understand and have sympathy for you. It is not just Thailand but expats in other countries.

 

The EU court ruled on that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8568970.stm

 

With the amount of expats overseas now it would be a good vote winner for a political party to remove that but I wont hold my breath. A bit like relying on the state pension.

A couple of points

The  ECHR ruling was in line with the three UK courts decision on the same case, therefore I dont understand why you would only highlight ECHR but fail to acknowledge that the UK domesic courts also ruled that the frozen pensions are lawfull

 

The unfreezing of pensions was part of Labours election manifesto, so you can stop holding your breadth now

[Laughing Gravy]

25 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

A couple of points

The  ECHR ruling was in line with the three UK courts decision on the same case, therefore I dont understand why you would only highlight ECHR but fail to acknowledge that the UK domesic courts also ruled that the frozen pensions are lawfull

Well the UK people can vote for a party that supports the unfreezing of pensions once we leave the ECHR. We don't get the option when in the EU.

 

27 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The unfreezing of pensions was part of Labours election manifesto, so you can stop holding your breadth now

The Labour party promised a lot didn't they like supporting brexit. U turned on that so hardly credible.

[baansgr]

14 hours ago, maxcorrigan said:

What is this "reciprocal agreement" i heard that they get the increases in Philippines, but not Australia, expats in the USA get the increase, but not Thailand! 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

Its all outlined clearly here.

[maxcorrigan]

6 minutes ago, baansgr said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

Its all outlined clearly here.

Thank you very much for your details still does'nt seem fair though!

[rockingrobin]

21 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Well the UK people can vote for a party that supports the unfreezing of pensions once we leave the ECHR. We don't get the option when in the EU.

 

The Labour party promised a lot didn't they like supporting brexit. U turned on that so hardly credible.

The ECHR and the EU are 2 independant entities. Leaving the ECHR is not going to change the UK domestic courts judgements, what it will do is leave its citizens nowhere to go to challenge such decisions.

 

I do not inderstand the comment ' we dont get the option when in the EU ' It is not the EU preventing the uprating of pensions, but the UK government enacting secondary legislation to keep the regulation in place