Doctor Rip Off.

[Dazinoz]

I have posted on here before regarding having my Thai born son (Myanmar mother) made Australian Citizen by Descent so as he can obtain his passport. As part of the process the Australian Embassy required the 3 of us to travel to Bangkok to have DNA samples of me and my son to be taken under supervision by an Embassy staff member at a particular doctors clinic. The actual DNA testing is required to be done in a NATA approved laboratory in Australia. We were scheduled to go on the 18th August. I had booked flights, hotel and transport at a cost of around 15,000 baht. The babies mother has a Non Thai ID (pink) restricted to Chiang Mai. She requires a letter from the Myanmar Consulate if she requires to travel outside Chiang Mai. This is especially important when flying. We flew once before to Phuket and the letter was obtained and no problems. This time at check in the airline refused to let her fly because the letter was wrong. We lost the 15,000 baht. I notified the embassy and they were to reschedule another appointment. It appeared our only option was to take the train to and from Bangkok. A week later the baby was admitted to hospital in Chiang Mai with pneumonia. Hospital cost plus suction pump was 95,000 baht. At that point I pleaded with the Embassy to conduct the sampling to be done here in Chiang Mai. They finally agreed to that and was conducted today.

 

Now to the point of my topic. Chiang Mai RAM Hospital charged a very fair 800 baht for sampling. The doctors that are used by the Australian Embassy (won't say name in case not allowed) wanted 4500 baht each for me and my son to take samples. 9000 baht. How can they justify that? Sampling is simple 2 mouth swabs from each person.

[lopburi3]

Are we to understand that the doctor (or doctors - both terms seem to be used) had to travel from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to Bangkok in order to preform this procedure?  Expect that might have something to do with the cost if that were the case.

 

But may the future hold better luck for you and your family.

[worgeordie]

" How can they justify that? Sampling is simple 2 mouth swabs from each person.",why did you not ask Them?,
so you had samples taken at two hospitals ?

 

regards Worgeordie

[Dazinoz]

25 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Are we to understand that the doctor (or doctors - both terms seem to be used) had to travel from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to Bangkok in order to preform this procedure?  Expect that might have something to do with the cost if that were the case.

 

But may the future hold better luck for you and your family.

No, the doctor was from CM RAM and charged 800. The original scenario was to goto the Embassy selected doctor in Bangkok. They didn't have to go any where but wanted 9000,

Edited September 26, 2017 by Dazinoz

[Dazinoz]

16 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

" How can they justify that? Sampling is simple 2 mouth swabs from each person.",why did you not ask Them?,
so you had samples taken at two hospitals ?

 

regards Worgeordie

When first quoted the price I asked via email to the embassy as to why so expensive. They just said that was the fee. I had no contact with the doctor in Bangkok it was all arranged by the Australian Embassy. After sampling today I emailed the embassy and suggested that they revise the selection of doctor they use and told them the price comparison.

 

 I only had sample taken at CM RAM. I thought I had explained that but obviously not good enough.

[impulse]

My guess would be that the fee was something like 1,000 for taking the samples, 2,500 for the formalities required to stay on the Embassy approved list, and 1,000 for the documents and handling required by the Embassy to maintain chain of custody and the integrity of the samples.

 

For something that could possibly cost the citizens of Aus so much, I'd hate to think they'd allow a cut rate sampler that could easily be enticed with a few baht to do something nefarious.   And it probably protects a lot of "fathers" from false paternity claims as much as the citizens of Aus.  Not that anything like that ever happens in Thailand... 

 

[Dazinoz]

My guess would be that the fee was something like 1,000 for taking the samples, 2,500 for the formalities required to stay on the Embassy approved list, and 1,000 for the documents and handling required by the Embassy to maintain chain of custody and the integrity of the samples.
 
 

In these situations there is a lot of paperwork. This and the bringing of the test kits and supervision of the sampling and then taking all the paperwork and samples all handled by Australian Embassy staff at no cost other than the original application fee. This wAs done at RAM and in fact there were 2 representatives. All the doctor does is sign one form and takes the sample under supervision. The process here was the same as would be in Bangkok. Except for the costs.

So as you suggest it should only be sampling fee.

[sinbin]

2 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

Australian Citizen by Descent

Why a DNA test? A certificate of legitimisation obtained from you local Amphur signed by the mother should suffice. I don't see where it says  anything about DNA in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Australian Passports – Applications for Minors

This information sheet should be read in conjunction with the Australian passport application form. Please complete and print the appropriate form from the website www.passports.gov.au

Overseas Passport Application (PC8) One parent must be interviewed. Your child does not need to attend.

The lodging parent must bring the following original documents and a photocopy of each to the passport interview:

• Completed Overseas Application Form available at www.passports.gov.au including a completed Guarantor section (see attached list of guarantor categories)

• Current Australian passport (if the child has one)

•  If the child was born in Australia - original Australian birth certificate

•  If the child was born overseas - original birth certificate plus original translation showing the translation office’s stamp plus original Australian Citizenship Certificate

• Original Parents’ passports, in their current name and showing their signature (Examples: Australian or overseas passport)

• Marriage Certificate plus original translation (if any).

•  If the spelling or entire name of a parent on the child’s birth certificate differs from the parent’s ID – a name change document plus original translation (Examples: Name change certificate, marriage certificate).

• If the child’s Australian passport has been lost/stolen - original Thai police report.

• Three passport photos (guidelines regarding size, colour, etc are listed on the website).

If your child’s Australian passport has been lost or stolen you must also present a Thai police report.

Our processing office in Canberra may request additional documents after the application has been assessed by them. We will contact you if any additional documentation is needed.

Your child’s new passport will take 3 weeks (15 working days) to process. If your child needs to travel on their current passport while the new one is processed, please advise staff at the interview. If you choose this option you will need to present the child’s current passport to us for cancellation before the new one can be released to you.

If you choose to have your child’s current passport cancelled at the interview, the new document can be mailed to you in Thailand or collected in person from the Australian Embassy Bangkok.

 

 

 

Sorry I should have stated that to prove 'legitimacy' if the child is age under 7 it must be done via a court. Not a big deal.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by sinbin

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, Dazinoz said:

No, the doctor was from CM RAM and charged 800. The original scenario was to goto the Embassy selected doctor in Bangkok. They didn't have to go any where but wanted 9000,

But you said the doctors made that 9000 baht charge in your original post.

Quote

The doctors that are used by the Australian Embassy (won't say name in case not allowed) wanted 4500 baht each for me and my son to take samples. 9000 baht

 

27 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

 

In these situations there is a lot of paperwork. This and the bringing of the test kits and supervision of the sampling and then taking all the paperwork and samples all handled by Australian Embassy staff at no cost other than the original application fee. This wAs done at RAM and in fact there were 2 representatives. All the doctor does is sign one form and takes the sample under supervision. The process here was the same as would be in Bangkok. Except for the costs.

So as you suggest it should only be sampling fee.

 

Are you saying there were two officials from Australia?  They seem to only have an Honorary Consul in Chiang Mai so this may not have been something he could do without an official Consul from Bangkok.  Still suspect the high cost is due to procedure being done in Chiang Mai and that it is not a normal function of that Consulate.

[Sheryl]

I believe the high cost was for the procedure being done in Bangkok. The CM procedure cost him only 800 baht.

[Dazinoz]

I believe the high cost was for the procedure being done in Bangkok. The CM procedure cost him only 800 baht.

Why should it cost 9000 baht in bangkok and only 800 in CM? Bangkok not that special.

[lopburi3]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I believe the high cost was for the procedure being done in Bangkok. The CM procedure cost him only 800 baht.

Testing done in OZ per OP.,  So would expect there was a dollar fee for that which may have been converted into Baht for local payment?

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, sinbin said:

Why a DNA test? A certificate of legitimisation obtained from you local Amphur signed by the mother should suffice. I don't see where it says  anything about DNA in this thread.

 

 

Not my call. This was REQUIRED by the Australian Embassy.

 

1 hour ago, sinbin said:

 

[Dazinoz]

30 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Testing done in OZ per OP.,  So would expect there was a dollar fee for that which may have been converted into Baht for local payment?

 

Testing paid for separately to the testing company in Australia. $1200. Fees here purely for sample collection.

 

30 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

 

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

But you said the doctors made that 9000 baht charge in your original post.

 

No I said they wanted to charge 9000 baht. How could they have charged me if we did not get to Bangkok as per my post. I said they wanted if they did the sampling.

 

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

Are you saying there were two officials from Australia?  They seem to only have an Honorary Consul in Chiang Mai so this may not have been something he could do without an official Consul from Bangkok.  Still suspect the high cost is due to procedure being done in Chiang Mai and that it is not a normal function of that Consulate.

 

If you read what I said i said embassy staff would supervise the sampling. As it turned out the Embassy used the Honorary Consule to supervise the sampling here in CM. Plus there was another embassy rep who was Thai. Not sure what his position was but wore and Australian Embassy T-Shirt.

 

The high cost is if I went to Bangkok (9000). It was cheap here (800).

[lopburi3]

OK get it now - sorry -  you did not get ripped off.  Others that do in Bangkok you feel get ripped off.

 

Suppose you could also look at it as you were very lucky to have obtained a deep discount on the basis perhaps of your earlier bad luck and loss.

 

Quote

Testing paid for separately to the testing company in Australia. $1200

Now that is a lot of baht.  

[Dazinoz]

Just now, lopburi3 said:

OK get it now - sorry -  you did not get ripped off.  Others that do in Bangkok you feel get ripped off.

 

Suppose you could also look at it as you were very lucky to have obtained a deep discount on the basis perhaps of your earlier bad luck and loss.

 

 Nope I did not get ripped off but would have if had gone to Bangkok. Fellow Australians get ripped off if have to use their service. Probably the same for other Embassies that use those doctors. Just trying to highlight the difference.

 

1 minute ago, lopburi3 said:

Now that is a lot of baht.  

The embassy listed 7 approved labs in Australia all of which were nearly the same price.

 

For a "Peace of Mind" DNA test was $300.

 

For a "legal" test that could be used in a court of law was $600.

 

But for an "Immigration" test was $1200.

 

[sinbin]

13 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

I have posted on here before regarding having my Thai born son (Myanmar mother) made Australian Citizen by Descent so as he can obtain his passport

Can you post the link ? I've looked and can't find it.

[impulse]

10 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

Why should it cost 9000 baht in bangkok and only 800 in CM? Bangkok not that special.

 

 

You were given special permission to use a provider that wasn't on the Embassy approved list, and therefore, hasn't gone through the approval formalities, with all the sunshine and rainbows that entails.

 

Companies I worked for over the years have done a lot of government business and it's not unusual to do a $100,000 audit to get on their approved vendor list, and provide $200 worth of paperwork to sell them a $20 product.  That's how they end up paying $600 for a $10 hammer and $1,500 for $75 toilet seats. 

 

You can go down to Ace Hardware and buy a $10 hammer, but it won't be accepted by the government unless Ace has paid a zillion $$ to get (and stay) on the approved vendor list, and the hammer is accompanied by a ream of documents tracing the hammer back to the mine where they dug up the ore, and the forest where they cut down the hickory tree for the handle.

 

Be grateful they let you go down to Ace for your hammer, and let it go.

 

Edit:  Just as an example, if it costs the clinic $10,000 each year to fill out the documents and go through whatever hoops (audits?, site visits?, etc.) are required to stay on the approved vendor list, and they expect to do 50 DNA tests each year, they have added $200 to their cost of each test.  Someone's got to pay that.

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by impulse

[worgeordie]

12 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

When first quoted the price I asked via email to the embassy as to why so expensive. They just said that was the fee. I had no contact with the doctor in Bangkok it was all arranged by the Australian Embassy. After sampling today I emailed the embassy and suggested that they revise the selection of doctor they use and told them the price comparison.

 

 I only had sample taken at CM RAM. I thought I had explained that but obviously not good enough.

" I had no contact with the doctor in Bangkok" so a Doctor came from Bangkok ?,to CM RAM,?,

that would surely account for the the cost ,?, yes your post is a bit confusing ,but pleased 

it all worked out for you. 

regards Worgeordie

[Dazinoz]

57 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

" I had no contact with the doctor in Bangkok" so a Doctor came from Bangkok ?,to CM RAM,?,

that would surely account for the the cost ,?, yes your post is a bit confusing ,but pleased 

it all worked out for you. 

regards Worgeordie

Doctor did not come from Bangkok. Chiang Mai Ram used their own doctor and charged 800 baht. If I had have gone to Bangkok the door there would have charged 9000 Baht. I have emails to prove this.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

You were given special permission to use a provider that wasn't on the Embassy approved list, and therefore, hasn't gone through the approval formalities, with all the sunshine and rainbows that entails.

 

Companies I worked for over the years have done a lot of government business and it's not unusual to do a $100,000 audit to get on their approved vendor list, and provide $200 worth of paperwork to sell them a $20 product.  That's how they end up paying $600 for a $10 hammer and $1,500 for $75 toilet seats. 

 

You can go down to Ace Hardware and buy a $10 hammer, but it won't be accepted by the government unless Ace has paid a zillion $$ to get (and stay) on the approved vendor list, and the hammer is accompanied by a ream of documents tracing the hammer back to the mine where they dug up the ore, and the forest where they cut down the hickory tree for the handle.

 

Be grateful they let you go down to Ace for your hammer, and let it go.

 

Edit:  Just as an example, if it costs the clinic $10,000 each year to fill out the documents and go through whatever hoops (audits?, site visits?, etc.) are required to stay on the approved vendor list, and they expect to do 50 DNA tests each year, they have added $200 to their cost of each test.  Someone's got to pay that.

 

Yes I understand it costs money to run a business and those costs have to be passed on.

 

What I don't understand is the amount of that cost considering that the DNA test kits are mailed from the Australian Lab to the Australian Embassy in Bangkok. Embassy staff then take the kits and all the paperwork to the doctors and fill the forms in with the "patients", supervise the sampling and then take everything back to the Embassy to take the necessary actions. All the doctor has to do is sign one of the forms and physically take the samples. They can't go through much of an approval process if they need to have everything supplied and need to be supervised.

 

Yes I am grateful what happened happened and I saved heaps of money. But after 4 years here I still have not switched to the "Me Me Me" mentality  and still care about others getting ripped off. If everyone just "let it go" nothing would happen against this type of things happening.

[Dazinoz]

2 hours ago, sinbin said:

Can you post the link ? I've looked and can't find it.

Actually I am wrong. The post had more to do with the babies mum not allowed to fly hence the ultimate reason why the sampling was done in Chiang Mai.

 

But if you are interested in reading that the link is below.

 

 

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

All the doctor has to do is sign one of the forms and physically take the samples. They can't go through much of an approval process if they need to have everything supplied and need to be supervised.

 

Yes I am grateful what happened happened and I saved heaps of money. But after 4 years here I still have not switched to the "Me Me Me" mentality  and still care about others getting ripped off. If everyone just "let it go" nothing would happen against this type of things happening.

 

My point is that it may not be the doctor ripping them off.  It may be the burden the Embassy imposes that's costing them out the wazoo.  And depending on the numbers, the cost for an Ozzie may be different than the cost for a Yank or a Brit for what looks like the exact same procedure.

[Dazinoz]

12 hours ago, sinbin said:

Why a DNA test? A certificate of legitimisation obtained from you local Amphur signed by the mother should suffice. I don't see where it says  anything about DNA in this thread.

We are not married so the baby is not legitimate. His birth certificate lists him as "Person who lives in Thailand illegally or on a temporary basis". Under the Nationality  section 1.3 it states "Not acquire Thai nationality".

 

Therefore he has no nationality and would never be able to obtain passport. He may never leave Thailand but I am trying to get him an Australian passport hence the need for Australian Citizenship.

 

On the application form is states a DNA test maybe required. I had previously had one done for "peace of mind" but was not acceptable to the Australian Government as it was not conducted at an approved Lab. They requested one to be done and basically said if not done he will not get citizenship.

[Dazinoz]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

My point is that it may not be the doctor ripping them off.  It may be the burden the Embassy imposes that's costing them out the wazoo.  And depending on the numbers, the cost for an Ozzie may be different than the cost for a Yank or a Brit for what looks like the exact same procedure.

I fully understand your point. It would be interesting to see what they charge for another nationality.

 

 

[sinbin]

1 minute ago, Dazinoz said:

We are not married so the baby is not legitimate. His birth certificate lists him as "Person who lives in Thailand illegally or on a temporary basis". Under the Nationality  section 1.3 it states "Not acquire Thai nationality".

But he has a Thai birth certificate and it must registered with the Amphur. He lives in Thailand and comes under the Thai legal system. On another forum there is a long thread regarding a very similar story to you. Sorry not allowed to tell you its name but it's initials are TD. 

 

6 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

Therefore he has no nationality

Yes he has he's Australian by right, being as you're the father. To obtain 'Parental Rights' all you have to do is go to your Amphur and 'Legitimise' the boy if aged over 7. If under it has to be done in a court. Not being married doesn't make any difference 

 

10 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

On the application form is states a DNA test maybe required.

It say's 'maybe' but have you not asked why it's compulsory in your case? Or are you just assuming it's got to be shown?

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

We are not married so the baby is not legitimate. His birth certificate lists him as "Person who lives in Thailand illegally or on a temporary basis". Under the Nationality  section 1.3 it states "Not acquire Thai nationality".

 

Therefore he has no nationality and would never be able to obtain passport. He may never leave Thailand but I am trying to get him an Australian passport hence the need for Australian Citizenship.

 

.

You seem a bit confused .

The Pink paper gives them the legal right to remain in Thailand (albeit only in certain areas) , although it doesnt give then Thai Citizenship or Thai Nationality .

    The Thai Government are currently planning to give all School Children in Thailand that do not have Thai I.D. (Those that were born in Thailand and have been in Thailand all their lives and have been through the School system) , they plan on giving all School kids Thai I.D at a certain age (16?) 

   One of the conditions of non Thai kids getting Thai I.D. is that they do not have I.D from any other country , so, getting your kid an Aussie PP could jeopardise his/her chances of getting Thai I.D .

    You also stated that you went to the Myanmar Consulate to get permission to travel to BKK for the mum . 

    Are you sure about that ?

Are you sure that you didnt go to the local Ampor?

[sinbin]

17 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

We are not married so the baby is not legitimate.

That is nothing to do with 'legitimising' the boy.  'Legitimising' him , because you are unmarried to the mother give you 'parental right'. One of those rights is to obtain an Australian passport as long as the mother consents to it as well. Being as she''s stateless she'll probably never be able to leave Thailand so in the event of you taking the boy to Aus her written permission will be required. That is my understanding.

[Dazinoz]

6 minutes ago, sinbin said:

But he has a Thai birth certificate and it must registered with the Amphur. He lives in Thailand and comes under the Thai legal system. On another forum there is a long thread regarding a very similar story to you. Sorry not allowed to tell you its name but it's initials are TD. 

 

Yes he has he's Australian by right, being as you're the father. To obtain 'Parental Rights' all you have to do is go to your Amphur and 'Legitimise' the boy if aged over 7. If under it has to be done in a court. Not being married doesn't make any difference 

 

It say's 'maybe' but have you not asked why it's compulsory in your case? Or are you just assuming it's got to be shown?

I have already stated that has been requested by the Australian Embassy. Do you think I would throw away 25,000 + baht to fly to Bangkok and have the sample done on an assumption?