SURVEY: Brexit -- Good or Bad Idea?

[taipeir]

I'd also like to point two things I learnt from these Brexit threads.

 

1) nobody is going to change their existing opinion just dig in more strongly

 

2) British people especially pensioners have absolutely no empathy for each other.

 

100,000s of Brit pensioners live in Spain and Southern Europe and yet not even mentioned here that a no deal Brexit would hit them very hard.

 

1.2 million Brits live in Europe, many retired people who are more of a drain on health resources.

 

Many of them are getting FREE HEALTHCARE but health care statistics say people over 50 visit the ER five times more than younger people.

 

Austerity mad UK will have no welcome for them

 

 

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[citybiker]

I’ll just leave this here:

 

Brexit:

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41657248

 

RAL, clarification & scrutiny & it’s interesting that the EU still refuse to provide a figure or breakdown.

 

IIRC even the EU’s own legal team admitted they’ve no legal basis other than what is legally outstanding.

 

Overseas Brits within the EU & beyond are being prioritised, DD has repeatedly highlighted this point.

Lastly, nobody wants a no-deal as it’s not beneficial to anyone.

 

 

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[aright]

57 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The EU do not wish to punish us. There is no evidence of that. They don't want us to leave and they can see the idiocy of it.

 

 

Of course the EU want to punish us; to stop other countries leaving the Union. The EU want to make us leaving such a catastrophe no other country would consider the process. It's self serving.

[taipeir]

They've no interest to make it easy but that's not punishment, that's just the reality.

 

You can have an amicable divorce or a bitter divorce but it's very rarely an easy divorce because finances need to be sorted out.

 

And it's certainly not easy to disentangle decades of agreements and also future obligations

 

Remember it was the UK government that

 

A) launched the referendum

 

called an election before Brexit itself

 

C) is pushing for an extreme Brexit and has ruled out easier arrangements like single market membership (I recall during the referendum campaign most assumed UK would maintain single market membership either way..afterwards they swung very much to extreme brexit)

 

D) started playing pawns with the EU migrants already in Britain and also ignoring the big issue of the border in Northern Ireland almost completely

 

E) activated article 50 before having any internal consensus and therefore not giving itslef enough time to prepare for Brexit

 

F) not working with parliament but rushing through reform bills

 

 

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[Grouse]

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21730415-author-english-constitution-was-no-europhile-nor-would-he-have-backed

 

Splendid stuff for our more literary interlocutors ?

[nauseus]

24 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21730415-author-english-constitution-was-no-europhile-nor-would-he-have-backed

 

Splendid stuff for our more literary interlocutors ?

150 years is a long time and it seems he despised the French.

 

But 'he had doubts about extending the franchise to the uneducated masses, let alone giving power to the people in the form of a referendum' explains why you like the philosophy so much.  

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, taipeir said:

 

And it's certainly not easy to disentangle decades of agreements and also future obligations

of course, whoever said it would be easy, really?

 

Remember it was the UK government that

 

A) launched the referendum well past time - it should have been done before Masstricht. Blair promised one before Lisbon but then reneged - shocking surprise there!

called an election before Brexit itself  fouled up by a suicidal manifesto.

C) is pushing for an extreme Brexit and has ruled out easier arrangements like single market membership (I recall during the referendum campaign most assumed UK would maintain single market membership either way..afterwards they swung very much to extreme brexit) 

this is incorrect, read the history, speeches, statements and position papers.

D) started playing pawns with the EU migrants already in Britain and also ignoring the big issue of the border in Northern Ireland almost completely the Uk Gov asked for agreement about citizens on both sides very early on and were knocked back by the EU. NI solutions offered also rejected. The EU have taken no initiative to sort out any issues. They just want a load of cash! Typical EU. 

E) activated article 50 before having any internal consensus and therefore not giving itslef enough time to prepare for Brexit when the referendum was announced then planning for this possibility should have started straight away. Cameron called it and he is responsible.

F) not working with parliament but rushing through reform bills ??

[adammike]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And it's certainly not easy to disentangle decades of agreements and also future obligations

of course, whoever said it would be easy, really?

 

Remember it was the UK government that

 

A) launched the referendum well past time - it should have been done before Masstricht. Blair promised one before Lisbon but then reneged - shocking surprise there!

called an election before Brexit itself  fouled up by a suicidal manifesto.

C) is pushing for an extreme Brexit and has ruled out easier arrangements like single market membership (I recall during the referendum campaign most assumed UK would maintain single market membership either way..afterwards they swung very much to extreme brexit) 

this is incorrect, read the history, speeches, statements and position papers.

D) started playing pawns with the EU migrants already in Britain and also ignoring the big issue of the border in Northern Ireland almost completely the Uk Gov asked for agreement about citizens on both sides very early on and were knocked back by the EU. NI solutions offered also rejected. The EU have taken no initiative to sort out any issues. They just want a load of cash! Typical EU. 

E) activated article 50 before having any internal consensus and therefore not giving itslef enough time to prepare for Brexit when the referendum was announced then planning for this possibility should have started straight away. Cameron called it and he is responsible.

F) not working with parliament but rushing through reform bills ??

Some members of the government said that the EU citizens in the UK were a bargaining chip,it did not go down well in the EU .It was parliament who voted to make the referendum binding.Its not going to end well for the Tories deal or no deal that might be a reason for me to start drinking again to celebrate. 

[adammike]

2 hours ago, taipeir said:

I'd also like to point two things I learnt from these Brexit threads.

 

1) nobody is going to change their existing opinion just dig in more strongly

 

2) British people especially pensioners have absolutely no empathy for each other.

 

100,000s of Brit pensioners live in Spain and Southern Europe and yet not even mentioned here that a no deal Brexit would hit them very hard.

 

1.2 million Brits live in Europe, many retired people who are more of a drain on health resources.

 

Many of them are getting FREE HEALTHCARE but health care statistics say people over 50 visit the ER five times more than younger people.

 

Austerity mad UK will have no welcome for them

 

 

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We don't get free health care here in the Netherlands, health insurance is compulsory, it costs just over €100 a month minimum plus we have to pay for the first €385, according to your income you can get a rebate of €90 a month.Compulsory health insurance is coming to a NHS near you if the Tories have anything to do with it.

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, adammike said:

Some members of the government said that the EU citizens in the UK were a bargaining chip,it did not go down well in the EU .It was parliament who voted to make the referendum binding.Its not going to end well for the Tories deal or no deal that might be a reason for me to start drinking again to celebrate. 

Which members and when? And references please.

[aright]

7 minutes ago, adammike said:

We don't get free health care here in the Netherlands, health insurance is compulsory, it costs just over €100 a month minimum plus we have to pay for the first €385, according to your income you can get a rebate of €90 a month.Compulsory health insurance is coming to a NHS near you if the Tories have anything to do with it.

I doubt it. The day a British Government gets  rid of free at the point of delivery National Health care is the day they write themselves out of power for the next 50 years.

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

I doubt it. The day a British Government gets  rid of free at the point of delivery National Health care is the day they write themselves out of power for the next 50 years.

 

I think the present government will be in the sin bin for about that long anyway.  That's the only good thing that will come out of Brexit.

 

Seriously: first there was NHS dental charges, and now sick, old people are having to sell assets as NHS will not cover expenses, whereas the same people would be in hospices thirty years ago, so I could well see further charges.

Edited October 19, 2017 by mommysboy

[aright]

Corbyn's going to do a lot better is he?  

[SheungWan]

39 minutes ago, adammike said:

Some members of the government said that the EU citizens in the UK were a bargaining chip,it did not go down well in the EU .It was parliament who voted to make the referendum binding.Its not going to end well for the Tories deal or no deal that might be a reason for me to start drinking again to celebrate. 

 

26 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Which members and when? And references please.

Liam Fox. At Conservative Party Conference fringe event.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/liam-fox-refuses-to-guarantee-right-of-eu-citizens-to-remain-in-uk

and just in case you don't like the Guardian:

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-nationals-in-uk-one-of-our-main-cards-in-brexit-deal-liam-fox-10605533

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Liam Fox. At Conservative Party Conference fringe event.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/liam-fox-refuses-to-guarantee-right-of-eu-citizens-to-remain-in-uk

and just in case you don't like the Guardian:

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-nationals-in-uk-one-of-our-main-cards-in-brexit-deal-liam-fox-10605533

OK I remember this. Just Fox and before the Lancaster House speech and pre A50 - not formal policy nor a formal negotiating position. Of course the EU would grab it and use it but it was not policy. When May offered an early solution for citizens of both sides, the EU did even try to negotiate this and get it sorted out early. They need to secure their precious pensions first. 

[taipeir]

OK I remember this. Just Fox and before the Lancaster House speech and pre A50 - not formal policy nor a formal negotiating position. Of course the EU would grab it and use it but it was not policy. When May offered an early solution for citizens of both sides, the EU did even try to negotiate this and get it sorted out early. They need to secure their precious pensions first. 

May has never said she would give unconditional residence rights to EU citizens in the UK. In fact the home office was sending deportation letters to people who have lived in the UK most of their lives! 

It was only this week that she started making noises about making it easier and less costly for EU residents to get settled status

 

By the way it was May who made it extremely difficult for Brits to bring in their Thai spouses to the UK! Turned it into rich versus the rest situation

 

She has got a nasty streak under the prim and proper hood.

 

Don't think that this didn't lose a lot of support from Europe especually Eastern Europe countries!

 

Also their lack of specifics on the NI Ireland border and alliance with the hated and backwards DUP has turned Ireland into neutral at best now. Remember NI actually voted to stay in the EU but the UK is insisting on hard brexit which goes against the good Friday agrement.

 

 Time to ditch the Davis and Johnson comedy routine and get some serious people involved.

 

 

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[aright]

This is what the Government said in July 2016

 

There has been no change to the right of EU nationals to reside in the UK and therefore no change to the circumstances in which someone could be removed from the UK.

As was the case before the referendum, EU nationals can only be removed from the UK if they are considered to pose a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to the public, if they are not lawfully resident or are abusing their free movement rights.

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, taipeir said:

May has never said she would give unconditional residence rights to EU citizens in the UK. In fact the home office was sending deportation letters to people who have lived in the UK most of their lives!

It was only this week that she started making noises about making it easier and less costly for EU residents to get settled status

By the way it was May who made it extremely difficult for Brits to bring in their Thai spouses to the UK! Turned it into rich versus the rest situation

She has got a nasty streak under the prim and proper hood.


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She has to protect the UK people in the EU too. Is that nasty? This is supposed to be a negotiation!  

 

Settled status application ease, protocol and routine is another matter. The main point is that they are able to stay. Visas for Thai spouses issue sucks but not directly to do with the topic here.

 

[aright]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

She has to protect the UK people in the EU too. Is that nasty? This is supposed to be a negotiation!  

 

You can't negotiate with people who don't want to negotiate. 

Its time to end the attempts at humiliation, leave the table and leave the tab behind. 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 18/10/2017 at 4:57 AM, Grouse said:

That's a completely facile argument. Are you saying there has been no repeat of the dreadful European conflicts of the twentieth century because the USA has been the world's policeman? What nonsense. The European powers have lived comfortably together, by and large, for the last 70 years. At 63 years old, I for one am grateful for that. Long may it continue ?

The EU has not stopped the conflicts in Europe since the wall came down and the USSR collapsed, it was the UN. And it had nothing to do with peace in Europe since the end of WWII. The Common Market or EEC was just a trade area, unless you read the fine print...

There have been some very bloody conflicts too if you care to look it up.

 

It is a fallacy to think that the EU is anything other than bureaucratic expansionist idealism which is desperately trying finance itself to further the insane intention of a total domination of Europe, with scant regard to democracy.

Does that sound familiar, it has been going on in Europe for many hundreds of years.

The Russians are not impressed. If you think North Korea is pushing the envelope towards WW3 then what the EU is up to is just a stealth version of the same thing.

 

Look beyond the smoke screen, or the bottom of a cheap glass of Scotch.

 

?

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 18/10/2017 at 5:54 AM, SheungWan said:

Not that you have checked any of the spreads in UK General Elections. Better make it up and soldier ahead regardless.

Ah Bill, I have and it is completely correct. I'm retired and have time to do just that.

Check it out.

1st past the post system is worth having a look at if you are not conversant as to how it works.

[adammike]

28 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The EU has not stopped the conflicts in Europe since the wall came down and the USSR collapsed, it was the UN. And it had nothing to do with peace in Europe since the end of WWII. The Common Market or EEC was just a trade area, unless you read the fine print...

There have been some very bloody conflicts too if you care to look it up.

 

It is a fallacy to think that the EU is anything other than bureaucratic expansionist idealism which is desperately trying finance itself to further the insane intention of a total domination of Europe, with scant regard to democracy.

Does that sound familiar, it has been going on in Europe for many hundreds of years.

The Russians are not impressed. If you think North Korea is pushing the envelope towards WW3 then what the EU is up to is just a stealth version of the same thing.

 

Look beyond the smoke screen, or the bottom of a cheap glass of Scotch.

 

?

 

 

I think NATO might have something to do with it ,Greece and Turkey would have come to blows if they had not both been members,NATO has had to bang their heads together over some rocks now and then.The EU has kept Spain out of Gibraltar and kept the tax dodgers there safe Brexit might change that.Most of the EU are members of NATO the French have kept their own finger on their nuclear button.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

4 minutes ago, adammike said:

I think NATO might have something to do with it ,Greece and Turkey would have come to blows if they had not both been members,NATO has had to bang their heads together over some rocks now and then.The EU has kept Spain out of Gibraltar and kept the tax dodgers there safe Brexit might change that.Most of the EU are members of NATO the French have kept their own finger on their nuclear button.

Yes thanks, NATO maybe more than the UN.

I don't believe EU had made any effort over Spain and Gib as they know Spain has their own little bits of land they want to hang on to.

Tax havens are two a penny.

French have nukes as you say.

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The EU has not stopped the conflicts in Europe since the wall came down and the USSR collapsed, it was the UN. And it had nothing to do with peace in Europe since the end of WWII. The Common Market or EEC was just a trade area, unless you read the fine print...

There have been some very bloody conflicts too if you care to look it up.

 

It is a fallacy to think that the EU is anything other than bureaucratic expansionist idealism which is desperately trying finance itself to further the insane intention of a total domination of Europe, with scant regard to democracy.

Does that sound familiar, it has been going on in Europe for many hundreds of years.

The Russians are not impressed. If you think North Korea is pushing the envelope towards WW3 then what the EU is up to is just a stealth version of the same thing.

 

Look beyond the smoke screen, or the bottom of a cheap glass of Scotch.

 

?

 

 

Oh, and NATO of course...

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 18/10/2017 at 4:57 AM, Grouse said:

That's a completely facile argument. Are you saying there has been no repeat of the dreadful European conflicts of the twentieth century because the USA has been the world's policeman? What nonsense. The European powers have lived comfortably together, by and large, for the last 70 years. At 63 years old, I for one am grateful for that. Long may it continue ?

And NATO, as I was rightly reminded.

 

 

[adammike]

24 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Yes thanks, NATO maybe more than the UN.

I don't believe EU had made any effort over Spain and Gib as they know Spain has their own little bits of land they want to hang on to.

Tax havens are two a penny.

French have nukes as you say.

 

 

The EU doesn't have to make an effort, for Spain to enter Gibraltar would be against the rules and the spirit of the EU and they know it, as Catalonia is finding out that they can expect zero support from any member of the EU. 

[adammike]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

OK I remember this. Just Fox and before the Lancaster House speech and pre A50 - not formal policy nor a formal negotiating position. Of course the EU would grab it and use it but it was not policy. When May offered an early solution for citizens of both sides, the EU did even try to negotiate this and get it sorted out early. They need to secure their precious pensions first. 

I remember IDS implying the same,there is no deal to be made over EU citizens their right should not even be up for discussion. Any body who has legally moved to any EU country has the rights that were in place when they moved there forever.end of. 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

And NATO, as I was rightly reminded.

 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/05/how-valid-claim-eu-has-delivered-peace-europe

[taipeir]

You can't negotiate with people who don't want to negotiate.  Its time to end the attempts at humiliation, leave the table and leave the tab behind.  

 

The UK will be totally screwed in that case.I've outlined the ramifications, government tax income collapse as finance industry leaves, further pound drop, rapid interest rate hike, financial busts including government needing bailout from IMF as they won't be able to borrow on open markets, many jobs lost. 

Unless you understand that you are not qualified to agitate for no deal.

 

 

Its obvious in Britain the establishment and educated folks have recently realised that they are being driven to a cliff by incompetents , they are going to take back control of this mess.

 

 Tip of the iceberg if Brexit is bad.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41655915

 

Rising costs

 

The Financial Lives research, the first of its kind by the regulator, revealed a range of concerns among consumers at a time of weak wage growth, but also low-cost credit.

 

It concluded that 15 million people had low levels of resilience to a bill shock, that eight million were struggling with debt, and 100,000 had used an illegal money lender in the last 12 months.

 

One in six (17%) of those with a mortgage or who are paying rent, an estimated five million people, said that they would struggle if monthly payments rose by less than £50.

 

A rise in interest rates, heavily hinted by policymakers at the Bank of England, could affect many of these people - especially if the Bank rate rose rapidly.

 

 

 

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[aright]

6 minutes ago, taipeir said:

I've outlined the ramifications, government tax income collapse as finance industry leaves, further pound drop, rapid interest rate hike, financial busts including government needing bailout from IMF as they won't be able to borrow on open markets, many jobs lost.

Thanks for that.  We appreciate it.