Wood chips, have you tried them here?

[islandguy]

I have access to my friends chipper/shredder and will be doing pruning later this year. My question is to the value of wood chips as mulch and as a compost ingredient versus any down side. Some people feel that wood chips can be places that pests can live and propagate. There is also the question of whether wood chips contribute to a helpful nutrient profile or not. There is plenty of material on line to study, so my question to the forum is about your local experiences here in Thailand. Thanks for sharing!

[drtreelove]

Excellent as mulch. For composting ingredient it depends on the nature of the parent material and the size of the chips. Obviously the larger and more woody the chips, the longer it would take to break down. Although with compost screening and re-introduction to a succession compost pile, and use of a biological compost accelerator, the decomposition will eventually be achieved.  I would go with mulch as the best use of wood chips.  

Regarding nutrient contribution, go with the online material. I don't think local experiences will have much to offer in this type of analysis, unless someone is actually doing comprehensive soil testing before and after over a period of several years of use. And even then it would be site-specific and maybe not so useful to your situation. 

 

Myth #6: Wood chip mulch will attract termites, carpenter ants, and other pests.

Truth:  Most wood chip mulches are actually really unattractive to pests and act as a repellant...  

https://blog.drpower.com/6-myths-about-wood-chip-mulch/

[Thian]

Myth #6: Wood chip mulch will attract termites, carpenter ants, and other pests.

Truth:  Most wood chip mulches are actually really unattractive to pests and act as a repellant.  Cedar, for example, produces thujone, which repels everything from moths and termites to ants and cockroaches

 

So it's most and not all.....

 

I just cut a jackfruit tree and put a thick layer of dead branches on the soil , then i planted a mangotree on that spot.

 

Today i needed some of that soil so digged in under the leaves and there were many ants with wings, i guess termites but not sure.

 

I would only use woodchips if many people here in thailand tried it first.

 

 

[drtreelove]

"dead branches on the soil"  is a little different than grinder-produced wood chips, or mulching with rice straw, rice hulls or coconut fiber.  larger pieces of wood may be more suitable for termite habitat. 

 

Ants and other organisms may inhabit the mulch and underlying soil, but that not necessarily a bad thing; on the contrary. They are part of natures way of facilitating decomposition and incorporation of organic matter into the soil. And they save you a lot of digging.

 

The only problem you may encounter is that some of those little critters are ankle biters, and some may be detrimental to your desirable plants. But deal with that if and when it becomes a real issue.  Don't fear the unknown and hesitate to improve your soil. Manage your mulch as you should your compost pile, monitor it, replenish it, make it thick, love it. In fact another term for mulch is "sheet composting".    

 

Mulch is so powerfully beneficial, by building soil organic matter content and benefitting soil biology and the soil food web. It also insulates the soil surface from beating down of sun, compaction and erosion from rain, retains soil moisture during dry hot weather, and suppresses weed growth. And did I mention that it builds soil organic matter content and soil biological activity, the most important thing that you can do to make your garden truly "organic".

 

[cooked]

Wood chips, if applied while still green, will actually extract Nitrogen from their surroundings during the process of decomposition. The C/N ratio of wood chips is an amazing 400/1 which is a long from the ideal of around 35/1. I have used wood chips mulching professionally at customers' request but always had the impression that the plants weren't growing happily.

Probably a bit different here, so try it and see.

[George Bowman]

My original idea was to use wood chips for a walkway through our place. But the price of a shredder soon changed my mind. I saw the lower end electrical shredders and the high end industrial ones, but nothing in the small farm range. And yes, I could order one online and jump through the hoops, but have been trying to find a Thai company that makes a shredder. No luck yet.

[islandguy]

My friend bought one made in Bangkok for about 30-35,000

[drtreelove]

On 10/29/2017 at 9:15 PM, cooked said:

Wood chips, if applied while still green, will actually extract Nitrogen from their surroundings during the process of decomposition.

This is an important consideration, but from my understanding and experience, more applicable to raw organic matter incorporated into the soil. Raw organic matter applied to the soil surface as mulch I believe, has less impact on robbing nitrogen from plant nutrition. 

[drtreelove]

Thai made garden grinders, I think; photos from 2009, at farm/garden equipment shop in Chiang Mai. Sriyont is the name of the shop if I remember right,  on the road along east side of the river,. 

[cooked]

2 hours ago, drtreelove said:

This is an important consideration, but from my understanding and experience, more applicable to raw organic matter incorporated into the soil. Raw organic matter applied to the soil surface as mulch I believe, has less impact on robbing nitrogen from plant nutrition. 

I base the remark on what I saw in raspberry cultivation. The leaves were really yellow, the plants not flourishing. I gave Nitrogen in a liquid form, and they recovered. 

[drtreelove]

18 hours ago, cooked said:

I base the remark on what I saw in raspberry cultivation. The leaves were really yellow, the plants not flourishing. I gave Nitrogen in a liquid form, and they recovered. 

There are of course other possibilities for N deficiency, besides decomposition of mulch.  Plants use N for growth processes, raspberries put out a tremendous amount of vegetative growth early in the season; N is leached from the upper soil profile through irrigation and rain water.

[cooked]

18 minutes ago, drtreelove said:

There are of course other possibilities for N deficiency, besides decomposition of mulch.  Plants use N for growth processes, raspberries put out a tremendous amount of vegetative growth early in the season; N is leached from the upper soil profile through irrigation and rain water.

I agree of course but in this case the wood chips were definitely at fault.

[IsaanAussie]

OK this is the perfect time to ask a few cat amongst the pigeon questions. First was it actually an N deficiency or was the soil pH so high or low that iron or something else that was the missing (or not plant available) item. Second, and one that baffles me, what about the water used? I am no scientist so I struggle to understand when the experts tell me there is a difference between water pH and water alkalinity. What I have seen is when I used water from the probiotic treated pig water tanks on the veggies, no N issues. Straight out of the well, problem. The pig water comes from the same well! 

[drtreelove]

Good questions, there are many factors to consider in plant nutrition. 

 

Nitrogen deficiency is usually indicated with an overall chlorosis (yellowing), while minor minerals usually have a pattern of discoloration. Our experienced horticulturist friend Cooked probably knows that and observed correctly.  Iron deficiency shows as green veins with yellow areas in between the veins.  Other micros show deficiencies with varying patterns of spots or blotches of discoloration, or just general decline and susceptibility to pest and disease issues. 

 

Attached are some guidelines for visual identification of plant nutrient deficiencies, but I'm not good at getting this straight all the time, and I find variations that are hard to distinguish.  Some nutrient deficiencies don't have a dependable discoloration pattern.  And frankly, in my opinion, if you wait for extreme deficiencies to develop to the point where discoloration appears, you have waited way too long to address soil management. It's like waiting for a plant or a crop to exhibit an advanced pest or disease problem before addressing it. 

 

My end game has been to act preventively/proactively as much as possible, trust soil and tissue analysis and recommendations for prescription fertilization. Or if lab testing is not appropriate or affordable for the situation, to approach with a general purpose fertility program, heavy on natural source, slow release fertility products: green manure crop, compost, feather meal, fish bone meal, oyster shell lime, etc. 

 

Soil and water pH (acid : alkaline balance) can definitely affect availability of certain plant nutrients for absorption. You are right about soil with high pH (over 7 is alkaline) limiting plant uptake of iron, even if there is an adequate level of iron in the soil. I grew up and started my tree and landscape career in the Arizona desert. Low rainfall, alkaline soil and iron deficiency signs in plants were common. 

 

Soil testing and prescription amendments in the Michael Astera, The Ideal Soil system will bring the pH into normal range when you get the mineral balance right. This is better than trying to alter the pH as an isolated factor. 

 

I know you Aussies think of everything to try and get it right, but give me a hint: What is probiotic treated pig water? 

 

 

 

Plant Nutrient Deficiency Symptoms.pdf

[IsaanAussie]

Simply put it is groundwater to which a blend of microbes is added to aid the pigs digestion, growth rates and immunity. Similar to EM in that LAB is a major element and hence tends to be slightly acidic. 

One day we will manage to meet up and discuss soils etc.. Perhaps Forever Ford and Cooked might join in.

Totally agree on soil and plant testing and prescription solutions being sought. Observed some very good results back in Oz over the past 4 years and anxious to get back here and restart. 

[drtreelove]

I'm retired and back in LOS to stay. SE of Bangkok on one of the last remaining stretches of protected mangrove coastline. Ford's coming in March I think. I'd love to meet up with you all. Don

[IsaanAussie]

Great, I plan to be back to stay by/in March as well. Then if we can catch the Ford as he zooms past on the way to a 24 hr intensive ploughing session or on the return journey, a meet up is possible. Tony

[cooked]

1 hour ago, IsaanAussie said:

Great, I plan to be back to stay by/in March as well. Then if we can catch the Ford as he zooms past on the way to a 24 hr intensive ploughing session or on the return journey, a meet up is possible. Tony

Theoretically I would be interested but I am restricted in movement due to having school run duties most of the time, combined with poverty and a jealous wife. Somebody suggest a date and let's see. I'm in Buriram.

[islandguy]

Sounds like your meetup/gabfest would make a very interesting online posting.

[IsaanAussie]

58 minutes ago, cooked said:

Theoretically I would be interested but I am restricted in movement due to having school run duties most of the time, combined with poverty and a jealous wife. Somebody suggest a date and let's see. I'm in Buriram.

Buriram sounds like a suitable place. Usual arrival/departure point for Ford and not too far from Sisaket. What about you Dr. T?

 

[islandguy]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:54 AM, drtreelove said:

Thai made garden grinders, I think; photos from 2009, at farm/garden equipment shop in Chiang Mai. Sriyont is the name of the shop if I remember right,  on the road along east side of the river,. 

This is the machine my friend bought. 

 

[islandguy]

Has a heavy duty wedge shaped cutting blade and Honda motor with heavy duty drive shaft - as I recall. I talked to the owner of the company at the Mae Jo Ag fair and tried it there. Seemed like a solid machine and a company with a realistic approach to post sales servicing. Haven’t tried it myself except for that test.

[drtreelove]

On 11/25/2017 at 10:20 AM, IsaanAussie said:

Buriram sounds like a suitable place. Usual arrival/departure point for Ford and not too far from Sisaket. What about you Dr. T?

 

I love Buriram, land and people, I'd welcome the opportunity. Set it up, with a little notice I can make it happen. You have my email. 

[cooked]

19 hours ago, drtreelove said:

I love Buriram, land and people, I'd welcome the opportunity. Set it up, with a little notice I can make it happen. You have my email. 

Great. So what, exactly, will we be talking about? Soil fertility? For myself I wouldn't plan on much revision beforehand, I long ago became a horny handed son of the soil but I'm sure I still have much to learn. 

Maybe others are interested.?

I imagine that Sisaket would be more interesting than my place, which is very small, but if only the three of us are interested than that would be OK. Beer would be available. 

Up to you Mr IsaanAussie... January?

[islandguy]

Just been taking a look at tropical kugelkultur. The originel version from Europe uses buried pieces of wood to create a base for a planting mound. Benefits are supposed to be a long term improvement in water retention and nutrient release. Permaculture enthusiasts are now doing this in tropical places and report that it works there but height of mounds needs to be lowered due to heavier rainfall and that decomposition is much faster. Supposed to be especially good in clay soils.  While for me, using wood chips as a basis for sheet composting and garden path material is much more appealing (since my soil is good already) I wonder if this might be a way for people here in Thailand to get more benefit from ‘waste’ material than burning, without the air pollution problem. Any thoughts, gentlemen? And if there are any female farmers reading this, please introduce your selves.