English language live stream of the Royal Cremation of the late King Bhumibol Adulyadej

[thaibeachlovers]

22 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

Saddened but not at all surprised some of the usual suspects online including Jonathan Head on twitter would stoop to play up such an angle to try to twist such a profoundly sombre event. Please stick to defending and spinning for the Shins you lot.

 

I could however clearly see the smoke from my vantage point. It was indeed so profoundly sad and sombre. No need to broadcast on live TV or sensationalise the actual burning, this is NOT entertainment.

And yes: LONG LIVE RAMA 9 

No one is talking about "entertainment". Funerals are for the living to get closure, and it's been denied, apparently, for anyone that wasn't there. I only just realised that it had already happened, as I was apparently watching re runs and wondering why the cremation was being delayed so long, so my ( and all the others that didn't see it on tv ) opportunity to share in the moment that you found so profound and sombre has been lost forever. Leaves me feeling very sad that I couldn't wish him well in his next life as he departed.

[thaibeachlovers]

43 minutes ago, Denim said:

Talking about heaven, I didn't think serious Buddhists believe in heaven and hell in the Christian sense.

 

So is this a new thing with Thais like the way they now celebrate valentines day and Christmas. Is it Buddhism evolving or just being said for effect ?

 

If there is a Buddhist heaven what is it like and who goes there and where exactly is it ?

All kings since Rama 1 have had more or less the same sort of ceremony. Nothing at all "new" about it.

Given that Buddhists believe in reincarnation, why would they want to go to "heaven"?

[chickenslegs]

 

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

All kings since Rama 1 have had more or less the same sort of ceremony. Nothing at all "new" about it.

Given that Buddhists believe in reincarnation, why would they want to go to "heaven"?

What is "new" is that, for the first time, everything was expected to be televised or available on the internet. This seems to be the source of the controversy in this thread.

 

Buddhist "heaven" is (AFAIK) "Nirvana". When a Buddhist reaches a state of enlightenment the cycle of reincarnation is ended and they can rest in Nirvana (heaven).

 

Apologies to any genuine Buddhists if I have mis-stated anything.

[thaibeachlovers]

39 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

 

What is "new" is that, for the first time, everything was expected to be televised or available on the internet. This seems to be the source of the controversy in this thread.

 

Buddhist "heaven" is (AFAIK) "Nirvana". When a Buddhist reaches a state of enlightenment the cycle of reincarnation is ended and they can rest in Nirvana (heaven).

 

Apologies to any genuine Buddhists if I have mis-stated anything.

Hmmmm. Isn't televised events "normal" now. He was, after all, king to ALL Thais.

Had they said it wouldn't be televised at all, that would be one thing, but to publish that they would, and then not show the main part of the ceremony is, in my case at least, leading to disappointment that I couldn't share in it.

[Jip99]

6 hours ago, sanemax said:

I do wish that you would stop going on about respect and disrespect 

 

 

It is what funerals are about.....

[Ruffian Dick]

Serious question - I do not mean any disrespect to anyone - Why are people upset not to see the cremation itself? Were they hoping to see the body placed into the oven, the fire itself, or the smoke from the chimney?
 
I don't get it.

I think a lot of people (including an architectural magazine) thought the whole structure was going to set afire.
It would have been great eye candy, but that’s not what this is about.


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[LannaGuy]

6 hours ago, sanemax said:

I do wish that you would stop going on about respect and disrespect 

 

Well I just think that as Billions have been spent and 300,000 are physically there it is hardly a "private" event is it?  many more watched most of the day (me on and off as it's a historical occasion) and there was no warning that we would be 'cut off' from this NATIONAL event at the final hurdle. And , yes, it shows disrespect to the Thai people to do that.

[LannaGuy]

5 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

 

What is "new" is that, for the first time, everything was expected to be televised or available on the internet. This seems to be the source of the controversy in this thread.

 

Buddhist "heaven" is (AFAIK) "Nirvana". When a Buddhist reaches a state of enlightenment the cycle of reincarnation is ended and they can rest in Nirvana (heaven).

 

Apologies to any genuine Buddhists if I have mis-stated anything.

There is no "heaven" or "hell" in Buddhism but this is not the time to get into this?  also if there were a "heaven" he would have gone a year +1 day ago.

[LannaGuy]

7 hours ago, tukkytuktuk said:

He's gone to heaven. 

 

 

If there is a "heaven" (there isn't) he went long ago

[Jip99]

6 hours ago, sanemax said:

IMO, sporting events and concerts are entertainment, I dont think that funerals are entertaining

 

You didn't answer the question..... was there entertainment at this funeral you attended ?

 

 

I simply ask so you might understand this cultural element of Thai funerals.

[Katia]

I doubt anyone wanted to watch the body burn (I can't imagine there would have been much actually visible, anyway, since they have it all screened, and I always assumed they would not have shown much actual detail of the lighting anyway, but it would have been simple enough to show Rama X going behind the screen and then have narration saying "and the pyre is lit").  It's not something I'd personally want to see if it came to someone I cared about, but that's just me, and it seems the culture of cremation is different from my inclination as services even in the west often seem to end with the feeding of the coffin into the fire.  But the way they led up to it, with the lighting of the pyre being so ceremonial, is what made me think it was an important part of the tradition and hence a big deal to witness.  The final farewell, the sendoff, closure, etc.  The equivalent of throwing the first dirt on the casket in many western cultures. So it seemed strange when this last bit was cut off.

 

Understandable if the family wanted it to be private, although I guess we could argue whether any part of a royal's life, in any country, involves privacy whether they like it or not, but it would have been more understandable if it had been stated from the start that this was the way things were/would be done and then surely no one would have worried about it.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Katia

[poohy]

35 minutes ago, Ruffian Dick said:

I think a lot of people (including an architectural magazine) thought the whole structure was going to set afire.
It would have been great eye candy, but that’s not what this is about.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Yep I dont profess to have any  deep interest and certainly no Buddhist knowledge but  that's what i thought... very disappointed i only switched on a 10pm purely to see that

On a serous note if they are not going to burn what are doing with it 

 

 

[Jip99]

17 minutes ago, Katia said:

I doubt anyone wanted to watch the body burn (I can't imagine there would have been much actually visible, anyway, since they have it all screened, and I always assumed they would not have shown much actual detail of the lighting anyway, but it would have been simple enough to show Rama X going behind the screen and then have narration saying "and the pyre is lit").  It's not something I'd personally want to see if it came to someone I cared about, but that's just me, and it seems the culture of cremation is different from my inclination as services even in the west often seem to end with the feeding of the coffin into the fire.  But the way they led up to it, with the lighting of the pyre being so ceremonial, is what made me think it was an important part of the tradition and hence a big deal to witness.  The final farewell, the sendoff, closure, etc.  The equivalent of throwing the first dirt on the casket in many western cultures. So it seemed strange when this last bit was cut off.

 

Understandable if the family wanted it to be private, although I guess we could argue whether any part of a royal's life, in any country, involves privacy whether they like it or not, but it would have been more understandable if it had been stated from the start that this was the way things were/would be done and then surely no one would have worried about it.

 

Well put. I doubt many would be interested in seeing the body burn but the cremation is the last part of the funeral process and it feels like a final jigsaw piece was missing. I was expecting to at least see the King moved to the pyre.

 

This was a spectacular event that attracted respect and interest from all over the world - in terms of visual exposure perhaps compare it to funeral of Princess Diana. In that case the media coverage ceased when she was taken for burial in the family grounds - in this case the plan was for a high profile cremation that was visible to all those attending the Suan Luang area. The visiting signatories no doubt witnessed the final proceedings, so why prevent it from being televised.

[binjalin]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

Well put. I doubt many would be interested in seeing the body burn but the cremation is the last part of the funeral process and it feels like a final jigsaw piece was missing. I was expecting to at least see the King moved to the pyre.

 

This was a spectacular event that attracted respect and interest from all over the world - in terms of visual exposure perhaps compare it to funeral of Princess Diana. In that case the media coverage ceased when she was taken for burial in the family grounds - in this case the plan was for a high profile cremation that was visible to all those attending the Suan Luang area. The visiting signatories no doubt witnessed the final proceedings, so why prevent it from being televised.

Thai friends are aghast and asking me "why the secret". I think this will backfire in the hearts of many Thais who were promised access to the cremation that they could not attend. I, too, thought the whole edifice would go up in flames. Anyway an historical event but a disappointing censorship. 

[Peterw42]

Not televising the cremation has left my Thai wife and family scratching their heads. They had all gathered for that moment, the TV had been turned into an alter with photos, flowers etc. The smoke rising etc was to be the point of showing final respect, closure etc.

As others have said, nobody expected 17 camera angles and commentary , only a confirmation. A distant camera shot with a fade to a portrait would have been appropriate.

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Not televising the cremation has left my Thai wife and family scratching their heads. They had all gathered for that moment, the TV had been turned into an alter with photos, flowers etc. The smoke rising etc was to be the point of showing final respect, closure etc.

As others have said, nobody expected 17 camera angles and commentary , only a confirmation. A distant camera shot with a fade to a portrait would have been appropriate.

Peter it was promised is the point. Millions who could not make it wanted to say farewell but it looks like that was reserved for the 'special' few. Disappointing and if the family wanted it all 'private' then organise it that way not this spectacular event with the government boasting about events all around the world etc.

[tonray]

16 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

I was expecting to at least see the King moved to the pyre.

The coffin was moved late Wednesday night, by tradition, in secret.

[LannaGuy]

2 minutes ago, tonray said:

The coffin was moved late Wednesday night, by tradition, in secret.

huh?  he was in the urn there was no coffin

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

huh?  he was in the urn there was no coffin

Apparently the urn is purely symbolic and the actual remains are in a separate casket.

[champers]

6 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

huh?  he was in the urn there was no coffin

Not so. The late King chose to be laid to rest in a coffin and the movement of the (empty) urn was merely ceremonial. This as reported several times by BBC's Jonothan Head during the course of the day's events.

 

[LannaGuy]

6 minutes ago, champers said:

Not so. The late King chose to be laid to rest in a coffin and the movement of the (empty) urn was merely ceremonial. This as reported several times by BBC's Jonothan Head during the course of the day's events.

 

Really?  by tradition Thai King's are seated inside the urn and their hands joined in a Wai. That would be shocking news to most Thais if he was not in there.  Wow.

[Peterw42]

21 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Peter it was promised is the point. Millions who could not make it wanted to say farewell but it looks like that was reserved for the 'special' few. Disappointing and if the family wanted it all 'private' then organise it that way not this spectacular event with the government boasting about events all around the world etc.

Ironic thing is, at the moment (8am) on Thairath channel a very intricate explanation of what happened during the cremation.

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Really?  by tradition Thai King's are seated inside the urn and their hands joined in a Wai. That would be shocking news to most Thais if he was not in there.  Wow.

In the commentary I just mentioned in post #106, they mention 3-4 urns, the inner urn, outer urn, symbolic urn, the actual urn.

[LannaGuy]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Ironic thing is, at the moment (8am) on Thairath channel a very intricate explanation of what happened during the cremation.

"The corpse is first placed in a sitting position inside an inner urn, made of silver, the palms joined in front of the face in a gesture of homage. The inner urn is placed in an octagonal golden outer urn, which is taken by the family to the large Dusit or 'Celestial' Hall in the Grand Palace"

 

This explains Thai Royal Cremations and the Rituals. It would be shocking if they did it another way Peter.

 

https://iias.asia/iiasn/10/Regional/10CDIA12.html

 

 

[Peterw42]

10 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

"The corpse is first placed in a sitting position inside an inner urn, made of silver, the palms joined in front of the face in a gesture of homage. The inner urn is placed in an octagonal golden outer urn, which is taken by the family to the large Dusit or 'Celestial' Hall in the Grand Palace"

 

This explains Thai Royal Cremations and the Rituals. It would be shocking if they did it another way Peter.

 

https://iias.asia/iiasn/10/Regional/10CDIA12.html

 

 

Later in the article you quote they talk about the outer urn being removed and 3 times around the temple, then rebuilt.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

38 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Peter it was promised is the point. Millions who could not make it wanted to say farewell but it looks like that was reserved for the 'special' few. 

 

No.  'Was reserved' implies planning.   

 

This on the other hand looked only like a last minute change, and without a plan B.   Looking around at people's opinions here and on LINE etc, they're pretty unanimous on where the blame is at. 

 

And nothing in Thailand's press, needless to say.   BK Post hinted at it very slightly, Nation is doing what it always does.

 

7 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

"The corpse is first placed in a sitting position inside an inner urn, made of silver, the palms joined in front of the face in a gesture of homage. The inner urn is placed in an octagonal golden outer urn, which is taken by the family to the large Dusit or 'Celestial' Hall in the Grand Palace"

 

This explains Thai Royal Cremations and the Rituals. It would be shocking if they did it another way Peter.

 

https://iias.asia/iiasn/10/Regional/10CDIA12.html

 

This is not new information.  The Queen Mother was the first to request a different process, and the late king followed suit, expressing his wishes about it.   He was very down to earth about it actually, saying he didn't feel like sitting up in an urn for a year, preferring a coffin.  He's definitely earned to rest after a life of hard work. 

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

No.  'Was reserved' implies planning.   

 

This on the other hand looked only like a last minute change, and without a plan B.   Looking around at people's opinions here and on LINE etc, they're pretty unanimous on where the blame is at. 

 

And nothing in Thailand's press, needless to say.   BK Post hinted at it very slightly, Nation is doing what it always does.

 

 

This is not new information.  The Queen Mother was the first to request a different process, and the late king followed suit, expressing his wishes about it.   He was very down to earth about it actually, saying he didn't feel like sitting up in an urn for a year, preferring a coffin.  He's definitely earned to rest after a life of hard work. 

Fascinating.  If anyone has links that would be cool.  I know NONE of my Thais friends have any idea that he wasn't following the traditional ritual and the question has to be asked... why?  and what were the alternative arrangements?  and why go through all that procession?  and there I was feeling sorry for those two doctors in the pointy hats keeping the empty, it appears, urn stable. 

[scorecard]

54 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Peter it was promised is the point. Millions who could not make it wanted to say farewell but it looks like that was reserved for the 'special' few. Disappointing and if the family wanted it all 'private' then organise it that way not this spectacular event with the government boasting about events all around the world etc.

 

"....it was promised..."

 

Where did you see it was promised?

 

You've made your point, please move on.

[LannaGuy]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Later in the article you quote they talk about the outer urn being removed and 3 times around the temple, then rebuilt.

Yes but the outer earn is 'gold' and removed (as so heavy one would guess) whilst the silver one is processional but it does say that the urn is 'occupied'.  Fascinating if more info can be found. 

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

 

"....it was promised..."

 

Where did you see it was promised?

 

You've made your point, please move on.

It was a late change by 'someone' and caught all of Thailand by surprise... but not you, in your wisdom,  it seems. The press were asked to leave at around 9.55pm but before that it was scheduled to be broadcast until early morning. Yes please move on.