180 day rule

[eggers]

Attended the Money Expo @ BITEC, a representative from Bangkok Insurance, spoke with me about residency.

She stated if stay in Thailand for 180+ days, you're required to pay income tax on any funds you transfer in /bring into the country.

I advised I pay tax on income in my domicile country & understood there was a "One Tax agreement" between most countries, Thailand included.

She seemed to indicate it doesn't apply if stay longer than 180 days...

Have not heard this before, can anybody shed light on this issue..

[glegolo]

She is thai do not listen to her.... We countries i.e. Sweden have agreement with thailand that clearly says that wherever money is earned there is where we pay tax for it. End of it...

 

Forget her, this goes over and beyond her.

 

glegolo

[elviajero]

If you stay in the country for more tha 180 days in any tax year you are considered resident for tax.

 

Thailand operate a self assesssment system so it's up to you to declare any tax liability.

 

It's possible that income earned abroad that's brought in to Thailand within the same tax year it's earned has a tax liability.

[AlexRich]

The Thai lady may well be correct ... but tax would apply only to amounts from overseas remitted to Thailand that were earned within the same tax year and of course any Thai based income. I’m guessing they lack the technical sophistication and manpower to monitor and tax non-Thai income.

[elviajero]

Here is a link to the Thai Revenue Department: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

[lopburi3]

32 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The Thai lady may well be correct ... but tax would apply only to amounts from overseas remitted to Thailand that were earned within the same tax year and of course any Thai based income. I’m guessing they lack the technical sophistication and manpower to monitor and tax non-Thai income.

Reading above link I no longer see that mention of "remitted to Thailand in the same year earned" that was previous policy.  Some countries indeed do have tax treaties but they need to be read for specific country as not all are the same.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, glegolo said:

She is thai do not listen to her.... We countries i.e. Sweden have agreement with thailand that clearly says that wherever money is earned there is where we pay tax for it. End of it...

 

Forget her, this goes over and beyond her.

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

[AlexRich]

22 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Reading above link I no longer see that mention of "remitted to Thailand in the same year earned" that was previous policy.  Some countries indeed do have tax treaties but they need to be read for specific country as not all are the same.

The policy still applies. As long as you don’t bring money in that was earned within the tax year you are not liable to Thai tax. 

[elviajero]

55 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Reading above link I no longer see that mention of "remitted to Thailand in the same year earned" that was previous policy.  Some countries indeed do have tax treaties but they need to be read for specific country as not all are the same.

A tax return is asking about income earned in the tax year you're filing a tax return for, so if it's earned within the tax year (wherever) and is brought in to the country within that tax year, it potentially has a tax liability.

[bkkcanuck8]

If it is a pension or deferred retirement savings plan of some type - you actually earn money in the year that you were employed and paid into it... it is just the tax that is deferred and paid when you withdraw the money from the account (which is suppose to be advantageous since after retirement you should typically be in a lower tax bracket - though it does not always work that way).   If you earn money and live in Thailand for more than 180 days then that money is technically taxable.... the issue is that when you earn money on work outside of Thailand and you are living in Thailand on temporary visas (tourist; retirement) -- declaring the income as income would only confuse and complicate the issue.  The issue is the differing interpretations between two different (or more) government agencies.  Immigration/labour has more or less decided that the grey area of employment outside of thailand where you have no business or income (and the revenue is being paid by an entity that does not have Thai connections) -- is not currently being considered as working in Thailand for their purposes (this interpretation can always change).  The tax department though would likely err on the other side of the equation.  Since telling one agency one thing, and another agency the other thing ... would only get you into trouble -- it is usually best just to pretend that the rule does not apply and you don't know about it.

[Dan5]

Most countries, including the USA among others have tax agreements with Thailand so that you just pay taxes in your home country.

[Time Traveller]

On 12/3/2017 at 12:12 AM, glegolo said:

She is thai do not listen to her.... We countries i.e. Sweden have agreement with thailand that clearly says that wherever money is earned there is where we pay tax for it. End of it...

 

Forget her, this goes over and beyond her.

 

glegolo

Sorry but I have a feeling you're wrong and the Thai is right.

Tax treaties normally work that you pay tax where you are a tax resident. If tax was withheld from income sourced in another country, then you can use that as tax credit in your tax domiciled country. (avoiding double taxation) Sometimes the tax rates may be lowered by treaties.

Also, importantly, it does not rule out that you may need to file tax returns in more than one country. Thai law is clear, if you  are in thailand over 180 days, you're tax resident, and liable to file and pay any income taxes. 

The only country I know of that has a citizenship based taxation system is the United States, meaning you may need to pay tax to USA even though you don't live there. Every other country tax liability is based on residence. Where you live is where you pay, no matter where the income came from. 

[SpeakeasyThai]

I know if you are on a retirement visa all income from overseas is not subject to Thai tax.

[Dan5]

I

1 minute ago, Time Traveller said:

Sorry but I have a feeling you're wrong and the Thai is right.

Tax treaties normally work that you pay tax where you are a tax resident. If tax was withheld from income sourced in another country, then you can use that as tax credit in your tax domiciled country. (avoiding double taxation) Sometimes the tax rates may be lowered by treaties.

Also, importantly, it does not rule out that you may need to file tax returns in more than one country. Thai law is clear, if you  are in thailand over 180 days, you're tax resident, and liable to file and pay any income taxes. 

The only country I know of that has a citizenship based taxation system is the United States, meaning you may need to pay tax to USA even though you don't live there. Every other country tax liability is based on residence. Where you live is where you pay, no matter where the income came from. 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what your are talking about. 

[Time Traveller]

5 minutes ago, Dan5 said:

I

I'm sorry, but you don't know what your are talking about. 

Challenge accepted/ Show  me where I'm wrong. 

Oh, and let's make it interesting. Care to name the stakes? 

How about this, if I'm wrong, I'll delete my profile and never post on this forum again. And if you're wrong, you do the same, Deal ?

Edited December 5, 2017 by Time Traveller

[bkkcanuck8]

10 minutes ago, Dan5 said:

Most countries, including the USA among others have tax agreements with Thailand so that you just pay taxes in your home country.

Tax treaties are many - and there are different ones.  Pension and retirement plans usually withhold the taxes since the taxes were deferred on income earned when you worked and earned it.  As such the country where you earned that income is the country to tax you since they only deferred the taxes - they did not exempt them.  

 

The 180 day is not a rule to determine who taxes you first/last or otherwise.  It is just a rule (among others) that is used to determine if you were resident in the country for tax purposes.  When you work in a country (regardless of 180 days) that country has first dibs and they have the right to withhold taxes from what you are paid.    If however you are resident for tax purposes (180 days), the country will tax you on your income (sometimes worldwide, sometimes just domestic).  If you earn that income from a foreign source (live in one country, commute for work to another) - the country will often have a foreign tax credit which either fully or partially offsets the tax you paid in the country where you earn it.  Those are the basics.  Canada will often consider you resident for tax purposes -- after you have left for around 3 years -- or if you sever your connections (closing bank accounts etc.) and file a form saying you have left the country as far as you are concerned forever.  The US on the other hand will tax citizens on worldwide income as long as they are a citizen.  The 180 day rule is more about determining residence of an individual vs a person returning on holiday etc.  As such rules like that are generally about determining taxability for perm residence/citizens and those that are there for work (work permit).  

 

 

[glegolo]

1 hour ago, Time Traveller said:

Sorry but I have a feeling you're wrong and the Thai is right.

Tax treaties normally work that you pay tax where you are a tax resident. If tax was withheld from income sourced in another country, then you can use that as tax credit in your tax domiciled country. (avoiding double taxation) Sometimes the tax rates may be lowered by treaties.

Also, importantly, it does not rule out that you may need to file tax returns in more than one country. Thai law is clear, if you  are in thailand over 180 days, you're tax resident, and liable to file and pay any income taxes. 

The only country I know of that has a citizenship based taxation system is the United States, meaning you may need to pay tax to USA even though you don't live there. Every other country tax liability is based on residence. Where you live is where you pay, no matter where the income came from. 

Maybe I am wrong for some people and fully correct for the most of the others. It is not in my case and MANY other countrys case, of any importance where I reside. The important thing is WHERE the money was earned... didn´t you read my post.... Sweden have a tax-agreement as said, and so does many many other countries... So this stuff with 180 daus does NOT apply to either me nor many many others..

 

That is why I said about the girl what i said, she do not have a clue more than just the 180 days, nothing more.

 

glegolo

Edited December 5, 2017 by glegolo

[crazykopite]

How many Thai’s pay tax ? Very few I would imagine ?

[Jeffrey346]

2 hours ago, Dan5 said:

Most countries, including the USA among others have tax agreements with Thailand so that you just pay taxes in your home country.

Absolutely correct Dan...

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Absolutely correct Dan...

What tax are you talking about - there are many different ones.  I think you guys are confusing one particular tax - withholding tax from a retirement plan withdrawal or pension payment -- and assuming that when you talk about "tax" you are talking about all of them.  I know that ALL US citizens MUST file income tax returns and MUST pay income taxes on worldwide income -- which has deductions for foreign tax paid... but just because you work in Thailand and pay taxes - does not mean you are exempt from paying US income tax (it might work out that way if the foreign tax is greater than US income tax).

[glamont002]

1 hour ago, glegolo said:

Maybe I am wrong for some people and fully correct for the most of the others. It is not in my case and MANY other countrys case, of any importance where I reside. The important thing is WHERE the money was earned... didn´t you read my post.... Sweden have a tax-agreement as said, and so does many many other countries... So this stuff with 180 daus does NOT apply to either me nor many many others..

 

That is why I said about the girl what i said, she do not have a clue more than just the 180 days, nothing more.

 

glegolo

Why don't you read the Sweeden/Thailand tax treaty. Article 14, Independent Personal Services, has a 90 day rule and Article 15, Dependent Personal Services , has a 183 day rule.

[glegolo]

6 minutes ago, glamont002 said:

Why don't you read the Sweeden/Thailand tax treaty. Article 14, Independent Personal Services, has a 90 day rule and Article 15, Dependent Personal Services , has a 183 day rule.

You are WRONG, I am swedish and I know what kind of taxagreement we have based on experience not by googling....

 

As said, you are wrong very wrong!! If money are earned in Sweden, they are taxable in Sweden, and NOT in Thailand.

 

glegolo

[bkkcanuck8]

21 minutes ago, glamont002 said:

Why don't you read the Sweeden/Thailand tax treaty. Article 14, Independent Personal Services, has a 90 day rule and Article 15, Dependent Personal Services , has a 183 day rule.

Independent/Dependent Personal Services ... that to me sounds more in line with business (services industry) and not personal income -- or retirement income.  If I operate a business in Thailand and sell services (like offshore software development), I bill the company in Canada and they pay for the services.... that income is then taxed as income under Thai corporate taxes etc.  If however I sell services through sending a person to do that work in Canada, that income would be taxed in Canada (a little bit of guesswork on the second part).  

[glegolo]

49 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Independent/Dependent Personal Services ... that to me sounds more in line with business (services industry) and not personal income -- or retirement income.  If I operate a business in Thailand and sell services (like offshore software development), I bill the company in Canada and they pay for the services.... that income is then taxed as income under Thai corporate taxes etc.  If however I sell services through sending a person to do that work in Canada, that income would be taxed in Canada (a little bit of guesswork on the second part).  

If you operate whatever in Thailand, you pay tax in Thailand full stop.. is this so hard to understand....

 

glegolo

[huawei]

4 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

Challenge accepted/ Show  me where I'm wrong. 

Oh, and let's make it interesting. Care to name the stakes? 

How about this, if I'm wrong, I'll delete my profile and never post on this forum again. And if you're wrong, you do the same, Deal ?

The uk for example is a country where you pay tax if you are non resident, for example on rental income if in access of claimed allowances.

 

of course you pay tax on "earned income" earned in that country , that's the case in every country you work, less the available allowances.

 

you are a tax resident in a country ( Thailand) doesn't automatically mean you need to file a tax return. If you are here for over 180 days and the monies you transfer in are from a capital sale for example ( like the sale of a house) which clearly is not income or other income and it was from a prior tax year you do not have to file.

 

where you live is where you pay, again that is not true, not all counties assess you on your worldwide income..e.g Thailand. Thailand is remittance based.

[Surasak]

4 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

Sorry but I have a feeling you're wrong and the Thai is right.

Tax treaties normally work that you pay tax where you are a tax resident. If tax was withheld from income sourced in another country, then you can use that as tax credit in your tax domiciled country. (avoiding double taxation) Sometimes the tax rates may be lowered by treaties.

Also, importantly, it does not rule out that you may need to file tax returns in more than one country. Thai law is clear, if you  are in thailand over 180 days, you're tax resident, and liable to file and pay any income taxes. 

The only country I know of that has a citizenship based taxation system is the United States, meaning you may need to pay tax to USA even though you don't live there. Every other country tax liability is based on residence. Where you live is where you pay, no matter where the income came from. 

I think you have miss interpreted something here. I earn my pensions in the UK and I am duty bound to pay tax on that income. I am not and have not been resident in the UK for the past 11years. The UK has a treaty with Thailand whereby I am only liable for tax to HMRC on income earned in the UK. Thailand has no claim to tax that money again.   

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, Surasak said:

I think you have miss interpreted something here. I earn my pensions in the UK and I am duty bound to pay tax on that income. I am not and have not been resident in the UK for the past 11years. The UK has a treaty with Thailand whereby I am only liable for tax to HMRC on income earned in the UK. Thailand has no claim to tax that money again.   

You actually "earned" that money when you worked in the UK 11+ years ago, that income was put in a tax shelter and you were taxed when you came out -- but you did not "earn" that money when you took it out (and any interest earned in that "shelter" is not taxable in itself).  That tax treaty is just for pensions and retirement accounts as per withholding tax. 

[bkkcanuck8]

24 minutes ago, glegolo said:

If you operate whatever in Thailand, you pay tax in Thailand full stop.. is this so hard to understand....

 

glegolo

What is your problem - I am pretty sure I said if you ran your business here you paid taxes here.  The only difference is that if however I am doing consulting and I send someone to a foreign country, that persons income is taxed in that country -- because now you are doing business in that country.  Luckily when I was a consultant on the road working across multiple countries - I worked for a company that took care of these complexities.

 

But the problem here is that people are reading tax laws, tax treaties like they affect everything and I know of no government that does not have volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes of tax code dealing with a multitude of different taxes, treaties, interpretations -- and if it were so simple.... it would be done in one short sentence.... but it is not.  Doing a google and taking one line out of the tax code -- and saying because this line says this it must apply... without a full understanding of what income, what taxes, what whatever it is meant to apply to.

Edited December 5, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[glegolo]

16 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

What is your problem - I am pretty sure I said if you ran your business here you paid taxes here.  The only difference is that if however I am doing consulting and I send someone to a foreign country, that persons income is taxed in that country -- because now you are doing business in that country.  Luckily when I was a consultant on the road working across multiple countries - I worked for a company that took care of these complexities.

 

But the problem here is that people are reading tax laws, tax treaties like they affect everything and I know of no government that does not have volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes of tax code dealing with a multitude of different taxes, treaties, interpretations -- and if it were so simple.... it would be done in one short sentence.... but it is not.  Doing a google and taking one line out of the tax code -- and saying because this line says this it must apply... without a full understanding of what income, what taxes, what whatever it is meant to apply to.

Puh....... I am happy you finally gave in and realized you were wrong...

 

glegolo

[bkkcanuck8]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Independent/Dependent Personal Services ... that to me sounds more in line with business (services industry) and not personal income -- or retirement income.  If I operate a business in Thailand and sell services (like offshore software development), I bill the company in Canada and they pay for the services.... that income is then taxed as income under Thai corporate taxes etc.  If however I sell services through sending a person to do that work in Canada, that income would be taxed in Canada (a little bit of guesswork on the second part).  

 

3 minutes ago, glegolo said:

Puh....... I am happy you finally gave in and realized you were wrong...

 

glegolo

No, you just have a failure to read or comprehend anything longer than maybe 5 or 7 words.

Edited December 5, 2017 by bkkcanuck8