"Bangkok" means what?

[Melom]

Earlier I have proposed new translation of the formal name of Bangkok (Krungthepmahanakorn). But there is still not clear what means the name “Bangkok”? With the part “bang” is no problem, it is “bank” of a river. There are plenty “bang”ed places called so in Thailand. The question is what the meaning of “kok”. Some funmakers offer to understand it via c-method. But we are serious here. The problem that in Thai lexicon there is no word “kok” (กอก).  The closest is “makok” (มะกอก) which means “olive”. Scholars explain that around there were olive plantations. Sounds strained for me. So I took a research and found out that sumptuous Arun temple on another bank in older times was just an ordinary rural temple and called Wat Makok. That’s where the dog lies buried! Pardon, I mean: olives implanted. Obviously there might be Bangmakok village.

 

So far we have peculiar “kok” and “makok”. Wait! In Thai there is no sound [g] like in “go-go”. In Thailand it is written and often pronounced as “ko-ko”. It may sound like a joke but seems we got to the trace of legendary Gog and Magog.

Gog and Magog are semi historical personages. Two giant creatures that guard their land.

Ancient historians believed that they are Scythians and Huns. Therefore on the maps they placed to the north of Caspian Sea. According to scriptures Alexander the Great was not able to pass Gog and Magog’s land. Therefore he got furious and ordered to build the Iron Wall.

Since that the whole mainland of Acea (pronounced  with "s" like in word Ace) split in two continents Europe and Asia (with "z" sound). This Iron Wall became much more serious distinction than any ocean. Sometime later another Great king Peter I tried to cut window through to Europe but no avail. The Iron Wall (nowadays “Iron Certain”) is still there and intact.

 

And here they are Thai Gog and Magog. They are just symbols of course. Real Gog and Magog are invisible essences of protection, high up to the sky. They stand on banks of Chaophraya river (literally “Duchess”). One to the right and another to the left upon the land plots named Bangkok and Bangmakok.

[Briggsy]

บัง means village or settlement.

กอก means 'olive' or a similar sized tropical fruit loosely translated as olive.

 

Bangkok = olive village

[carlyai]

บัง means village or settlement.
กอก means 'olive' or a similar sized tropical fruit loosely translated as olive.
 
Bangkok = olive village

That could be correct, but there was also another theory taught at AUA, and that was the waters all meeting together, like a bottleneck...eg kok nam.
But, I have been wrong 99.6% of the time.
Merry Christmas anyway, off to Aus to relive the cricket highlights. [emoji23]

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[Jai Dee]

I just edited the topic to remove the strikethrough.

[VocalNeal]

My understanding is it is what an early European visitor was told when he asked where he was. Bangkok. Which if he was near the Grand Palace would mean on the bank where the waters meet Ie. Chao Phraya and the Klong Bangkok Noi meet.

[Eff1n2ret]

I once came across a small volume entitled 'Peter Floris - His voyage to the East Indies in The Globe, 1611-1615'. The writer was a merchant with the (London) East India Company, and this was his first voyage. He describes anchoring in the river off Mancock......

[Melom]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

That could be correct, but there was also another theory taught at AUA, and that was the waters all meeting together, like a bottleneck...eg kok nam.

That could by a version, but kok of nam spelled differently from bang of kok. ก๊อก vs กอก

Tonal symbols mean that the word is likely of Thai native origin. Unlike borrowed from Sanskrit which got no tones.

[vogie]

I found this on reddit website.

 

The etymology of the name Bangkok (บางกอก, pronounced in Thai as  [bāːŋ kɔ̀ːk] ) is unclear. Bang is a Thai word meaning "a village situated on a stream", and the name may have been derived from Bang Ko (บางเกาะ), ko meaning "island", a reference to the area's landscape which was carved by rivers and canals. Another theory suggests that it is shortened from Bang Makok (บางมะกอก), makok being the name of Elaeocarpus hygrophilus, a plant bearing olive-like fruit. This is supported by the fact that Wat Arun, a historic temple in the area, used to be named Wat Makok.

[tgeezer]

Pointless as I think this exercise is as discovering the origin of names I think that it has value in familiarizing us with Thai.
บัง is not บาง for instance.
The capital was moved across the river to a more strategic location which we are assuming was called บางกอก before กรุงรัตนโกสินทร์ was established.
The position was described as being bounded on the South and West by the river and on the North and East by a flood plain in the rainy season during which it might well be described as an island. However if บาง is to mean a settlement beside a small watercourse then I suppose we could assume that it drains from the flood plain to the river, but having decided on one geographical feature as descriptive can island be the second part as suggested in the Wiki extract?
Is มะกอก a native plant, it appears to be the olive? Trade with Europe was going on then but it is unlikely that a place would be named after an import in spite of Peter Floris' visit a hundred years earlier.
There is a native tree called มะกอกนำ้ which is a more likely candidate for the name.
This is the problem with names, was an olive when it was first encountered called มะกอก because it resembled a fruit from the มะกอกนำ้ tree?




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[cooked]

The transliteration 'kok' is to be found all over Thailand, leading to much sniggering when in combination with words like 'Suk' or indeed 'Bang'. It is a fact that 'Bang' as a place name disappears as one leaves the Bangkok - Ayutthaya area which may indicate a watery origin for the name.

However I had always assumed that 'Bang' was a dialect variation of 'ban'. ... 

[billd766]

I live in rural Thailand in a small Thai moo ban called Ban Prang 4. There are many small moo bans out here called ban something.

[DavidHouston]

The English explanation above is reflective of the Thai Wikipedia as follows:

"ที่มาของคำว่า "บางกอก" นั้น มีข้อสันนิษฐานว่าอาจมาจากการที่แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยาคดเคี้ยวไปมา บางแห่งมีสภาพเป็นเกาะเป็นโคก จึงเรียกกันว่า "บางเกาะ" หรือ "บางโคก" หรือไม่ก็เป็นเพราะบริเวณนี้มีต้นมะกอกอยู่มาก จึงเรียกว่า "บางมะกอก" โดยคำว่า "บางมะกอก" มาจากวัดอรุณ ซึ่งเป็นชื่อเดิมของวัดดังกล่าว และต่อมากร่อนคำลงจึงเหลือแต่คำว่าบางกอก"

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/กรุงเทพมหานคร

[DavidHouston]

For an article in Thai discussing this subject published December 10 on the internet, see https://www.matichonweekly.com/column/article_68846

[Deserted]

This thread is rather difficult to follow. I always understood the capital to be called Krungthep by Thais and Bangkok by foreigners only. I assumed that Krungthep preceded the term Bangkok, since this is Thailand.

 

 

[digbeth]

There's many places that has Bang- prefix to denote somewhere that has plenty of something

 

Bangna

 

Bangchak ใบจาก is a leaf from a kind of palm

 

BangKapi

[Peterw42]

5 hours ago, Deserted said:

This thread is rather difficult to follow. I always understood the capital to be called Krungthep by Thais and Bangkok by foreigners only. I assumed that Krungthep preceded the term Bangkok, since this is Thailand.

 

 

Yes, thats what I always thought. 

 

Full Thai name is

Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit

 

The longest city name in the world.

 

Which translates to

City of angels, great city of immortals, magnificent city of the nine gems, seat of the king, city of royal palaces, home of gods incarnate, erected by Vishvakarman at Indra's behest

[Deserted]

So what does krung-thep' in itself mean if I may ask?

[tgeezer]

This thread is rather difficult to follow. I always understood the capital to be called Krungthep by Thais and Bangkok by foreigners only. I assumed that Krungthep preceded the term Bangkok, since this is Thailand.
 
 

Bangkok is the place where the capital city was built, at just about the same time as America was fighting for its independance incidentally. The first name was กรุงรัตนโกสินทร์ Grung Ratanagosin described as one of the names of ..... yes the long list of names!
Not only foreigners use Bangkok it is the official name of กรุงเทพ in English.

I always knew that กทม. stood for กรุงเทพมหานคร but didn't know that it meant B.M.A. Bangkok Metropolitan Authority. When you see กรุงเทพฯ you should read กรุงเทพมหานคร and if you are unlucky enough to come across กรุงเทพมหานครฯ you should say them all!

The many names of Bangkok is more of a curiousity I think, some people may remember them all but I expect that they are only used cerimonially



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[Melom]

11 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I always knew that กทม. stood for กรุงเทพมหานคร but didn't know that it meant B.M.A. Bangkok Metropolitan Authority.

KTM (กทม) is just simple abbreviation same as BKK.

"Bangkok Metropolitan Authority" is English '"artistic" translation. Literally it is just ราชการกรุงเทพมหานคร "Government of Bangkok"

[tgeezer]

I think that its down to context, I can't remember what I googled this morning but now all I get is a glossy page which gives the impression that กรุงเทพมหานคร is Bangkok Municiple Administration. This morning it was unequivical (องค์กรปกครองส่วนท้องถิ่น) I wouldn't argue the point, if you want to refer to the government of Bangkok กทม. will do. If you want to refer to the place กทม. will also do I suppose. It makes sense to me to call Bangkok กรุงเทพ and let มหานคร serve to say 'city hall' as the Americans would say.
Are you sure about ราชการกรุงเทพมหานคร ? What about เทศบาลกรุงเทพฯ?




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[digbeth]

Thais would never specify if they're talking about the 'city hall' กทม or the capital, adding เทศบาล or ราชการ infront is just not done, you'd have to gleam from context if they're talking about the capital or the government body

[Richard W]

On 14/12/2017 at 9:00 AM, Deserted said:

This thread is rather difficult to follow. I always understood the capital to be called Krungthep by Thais and Bangkok by foreigners only. I assumed that Krungthep preceded the term Bangkok, since this is Thailand.

Krungthep is only a relatively recent name.  The capital was previously at Thonburi.  Don't forget that two parts of Bangkok on the Thonburi side of the river are Bangkok Yai and Bangkok Noi.

 

On 12/12/2017 at 6:27 AM, Melom said:

That could by a version, but kok of nam spelled differently from bang of kok. ก๊อก vs กอก

Tonal symbols mean that the word is likely of Thai native origin. Unlike borrowed from Sanskrit which got no tones.

Mai tri and mai chattawa are signs of a borrowed word, or of irregular development or recent coinage.  Additionally, dead syllables of native origin don't have tone marks unless their development has been irregular or the word is a fresh coinage.

[tgeezer]

Thais would never specify if they're talking about the 'city hall' กทม or the capital, adding เทศบาล or ราชการ infront is just not done, you'd have to gleam from context if they're talking about the capital or the government body

I agree with gleening from context but I would say that there are Thais who see กรุงเทพ as Bangkok and can slap เทศบาล in front just as I have done, I would never say"just not done" for that reason. However I thought that it was a bit clunky the way I had writted it so googles this morning. What I found was เทศบาลนครกรุงเทพ. No ไปยาลน้อย you notice.


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[Melom]

Found the map of Bangkok with funny spell.

And it seems to me that is not "Bancock" but site of Thonburi before Chaophraya curved watercourse has been straighten up.

 

 

[Chou Anou]

Speakers of Northern Khmer who are Thai citizens (that is, ethnic Khmers who have lived under Thai rule in Surin, Sisaket, and Buriram provinces for several centuries) refuse to call Bangkok กรุงเทพ when speaking Khmer; they call it เมืองกอก instead. They also refer to Khorat only by its older Khmer name. This is interesting, because for all other place names in Thailand, "Surin Khmers," as they're often called, use the current Thai names with standard Thai pronunciation; it's only with the names of Bangkok and Khorat that they insist on using the older names.

[isaanbanhou]

12 hours ago, Chou Anou said:

Speakers of Northern Khmer who are Thai citizens (that is, ethnic Khmers who have lived under Thai rule in Surin, Sisaket, and Buriram provinces for several centuries) refuse to call Bangkok กรุงเทพ when speaking Khmer; they call it เมืองกอก instead. They also refer to Khorat only by its older Khmer name. This is interesting, because for all other place names in Thailand, "Surin Khmers," as they're often called, use the current Thai names with standard Thai pronunciation; it's only with the names of Bangkok and Khorat that they insist on using the older names.

 

fascinating, such a subtle difference between กรุงเทพ and เมืองกอก.  A very similar situation in Texas where ethic mexicans,( that is mexicans who have lived under American rule for several centuries)  use the spanish words "Tejas es el segundo más grande de los estados de los Estados Unidos." instead of the English word "Texas".  These "Texas Mexicans" as they are often called refer to New York as New York and Chicago as Chicago instead of spanish names.  This oddly enough is not always the practice and the "Texas Mexicans" refuse to call Sante Fe New Mexico by that name but demand that the city be referred to as Santa Fe de Nuevo México . 

 

After living under Thai rule for several centuries it is quaint that the "Surin Khmers"  (though they live in Si Sa Ket, Surin and Buriram), have held on to their culture so tightly and have made such a forceful statement on their ethnicity.

 

Kudos to the "Surin Khmers" and best wishes on keeping their rich and illustrious culture alive by referring to กรุงเทพมหานคร as กรุงเทพ.

 

 Bravo to the greatest supporter of the poor and oppressed, champion of and to the displaced สุรินทร์เขมร , King Xaiya Setthathirath V of Lao or his wannabe

 

 

[Chou Anou]

46 minutes ago, isaanbanhou said:

 

fascinating, such a subtle difference between กรุงเทพ and เมืองกอก.  A very similar situation in Texas where ethic mexicans,( that is mexicans who have lived under American rule for several centuries)  use the spanish words "Tejas es el segundo más grande de los estados de los Estados Unidos." instead of the English word "Texas".  These "Texas Mexicans" as they are often called refer to New York as New York and Chicago as Chicago instead of spanish names.  This oddly enough is not always the practice and the "Texas Mexicans" refuse to call Sante Fe New Mexico by that name but demand that the city be referred to as Santa Fe de Nuevo México . 

 

After living under Thai rule for several centuries it is quaint that the "Surin Khmers"  (though they live in Si Sa Ket, Surin and Buriram), have held on to their culture so tightly and have made such a forceful statement on their ethnicity.

 

Kudos to the "Surin Khmers" and best wishes on keeping their rich and illustrious culture alive by referring to กรุงเทพมหานคร as กรุงเทพ.

 

 Bravo to the greatest supporter of the poor and oppressed, champion of and to the displaced สุรินทร์เขมร , King Xaiya Setthathirath V of Lao or his wannabe

 

 

You're kind of a <deleted>, aren't you? How's that working out for you in real life, far away from the security of a keyboard?

[isaanbanhou]

1 hour ago, Chou Anou said:

You're kind of a <deleted>, aren't you? How's that working out for you in real life, far away from the security of a keyboard?

 

at least not a pompous, condescending  <deleted>

 

Perhaps you 've heard of another example of this phenomena.

 

In Canada, the people of french ethicity ( ethnic fench who have lived under Canadian rule for hundreds of years) call their favourite hockey team the Habs, while non french ethnic Canadians refer to the hockey team as the Canadiens.  This depite the team being officially named the Montreal Canadiens.  Habs' originates  from the french word habitants which

in English means inhabitants .  Oddly they only refer to the Montreal Canadiens with a french word and call all other teams in the NHL by their proper name. In Canda these people of french origin are usually called "French Canadaians and yet they do not live in France and may never have been to France.

 

I understand that in France they call a 1/4 pounder with cheese a Royale with cheese according to the movie Pulp Fiction. This is very unusual as both are sold McDonald''s  is an American company and America speaks English.

 

 

 

 

[tgeezer]

You're kind of a , aren't you? How's that working out for you in real life, far away from the security of a keyboard?

The deleted noun and th phrase "security of the keyboard" seems to be challenging and I cannot see in the post to which it is a response why this should be.
Do you want your post to be understood by the rest of us?


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[persimmon]

Just looked up Bangkok in my Thai-English dic......"Bahng " means place or location,and the word " kork " means pen or enclosure ( usually for animals ).Seems reasonable no ?