Tm-30 fine

[Eff1n2ret]

20 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

Why complete an Arrival Card, do they actually input the info, they have no way of checking you are actually staying at that address.pThe I.O. doesn’t when passing through Immigration, is there a big office where people sit all day and inputting the Info of thousands of Arrival Cards ?

Of course there isn't. It would be an almost impossible task to transcribe all the handwritten data on an arrival card into a database. I'm pretty sure that all that happens at the arrival control is that there's a scan which captures the digital info of your passport and links it with the barcode on the landing card, so they have a record of who is entering and leaving the country.

But the tracing of where people are while they're in the country is down to local offices, who rely on the records submitted by hotels or house owners/occupants.

 

[Tanoshi]

43 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The TM-6 is in no way related to the TM-30 - though one could argue that it should be, in a good-system designed to meet the stated goal of tracking where foreigners are living (a goal which I respect). 

Slight disagreement on that Jack.

 

A TM30 requests notification of your TM6 number.

บัตรขาเข้าเลขที่

Arrival card TM.No.

If you leave the Country you hand in your TM6 departure card. 

You are removed from the National database as a foreigner having departed Thailand.

 

On re-entry you are required to complete a new TM6.

Unless a TM30 is filed with your local office on your return, your local IO would have your old TM6 on file.

That has caused problems when next visiting Immigration because the copy of your new TM6, or the TM6 you may put on an application form does not match that on their local file.

I believe that may be one of the reasons why more and more Immigration offices are enforcing filing a new TM30 with your local office when returning to the same address, it serves to update your new TM6 number amongst other things.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tanoshi

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

I wish my country (USA) was as diligent in tracking foreigners as Thailand - or even more so.  This would have saved many lives in the last 20 years - and tens of millions of our citizen's livelihoods and families.  "Our" government have no problem spying on we citizens (who are treated like the enemy, to the extent we object to the "globalization" efforts of the transnational corporations) but let the foreigners - even illegal ones - wreck citizen-lives with impunity.

 

That said, Thailand could modernize its system considerably - such as tying in the TM-6 system with the TM-30 system with the 90-day system. 

 

They should also provide advance-notice to people entering the country, so they are aware of what is required in-advance.  Hitting people up with fines for laws they were not aware of is something one would expect from a low-class country - not what Thailand wants to project as its image.

Why not just stop the TM6 use.

Many countries don't use such a system. Doesn't seem to cause any problems.

[ubonjoe]

27 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

If you leave the Country you hand in your TM6 departure card. 

You are removed from the National database as a foreigner having departed Thailand.

I don't think you are removed from the database. You still have a record of being in the country previously.

You are certainly still in the records if you are on an extension of stay.

Many offices manage quite well without the TM30 reporting every time you enter the country.

I don't think the TM6 number is all that important now since they maintain their records using your passport number. All they have to do is enter your passport number and they will see your latest entry that includes a the new TM6 number.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Of course there isn't. It would be an almost impossible task to transcribe all the handwritten data on an arrival card into a database. I'm pretty sure that all that happens at the arrival control is that there's a scan which captures the digital info of your passport and links it with the barcode on the landing card, so they have a record of who is entering and leaving the country.

But the tracing of where people are while they're in the country is down to local offices, who rely on the records submitted by hotels or house owners/occupants.

 

I don't know exactly what the IO does when you enter (cannot see his screen), but I have been asked to clarify my TM-6 address when the full-address did not fit in the available space on the form.  I provided a business-card for the condo, they were happy I had this, and did some typing with that card on the desk.  Maybe they type it in at that point - or maybe sometimes.

[Tanoshi]

32 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't think you are removed from the database. You still have a record of being in the country previously.

You are certainly still in the records if you are on an extension of stay.

I should have worded it 'you are recorded' on the database as a foreigner having departed the Country. (National database)

 

34 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't think the TM6 number is all that important now since they maintain their records using your passport number. All they have to do is enter your passport number and they will see your latest entry that includes a the new TM6 number.

The TM6 is scanned using the barcode, so the new TM6 number will be recorded on the national database, but not on your Immigration offices local database until they are notified of the new number. Can't speak for other offices but Amnat and Roi Et are sticklers for keeping their local database up to date with foreigners details. 

[Eff1n2ret]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

I believe that may be one of the reasons why more and more Immigration offices are enforcing filing a new TM30 with your local office when returning to the same address, it serves to update your new TM6 number amongst other things.

Rayong don't need one. Also, I last entered the country on a re-entry permit in late August. I did an online 90-day report in November which was accepted. The Rayong office must have verified my entry from the national TM6 database, otherwise I could have given a false date and TM6 number.

[Skeptic7]

Thai Immigration LOVES excessive and unnecessary paperwork and copies of such. For my "retirement" extension, they wanted a copy of every page of passport that had any Thai ink on it. The passport is not new and frequently in and out, so many copies required that NOBODY will ever look at again. We were marveling at the stacks upon stacks of bundled paperwork in many of the cubicles...never to be seen again. Waste of time, paper, money and resources.

 

This is the Digital Age, yet Thailand lags far behind and does not participate. It does however provide tons of lip service to the contrary and pretends alot. 

[NanLaew]

29 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I should have worded it 'you are recorded' on the database as a foreigner having departed the Country. (National database)

 

The TM6 is scanned using the barcode, so the new TM6 number will be recorded on the national database, but not on your Immigration offices local database until they are notified of the new number. Can't speak for other offices but Amnat and Roi Et are sticklers for keeping their local database up to date with foreigners details. 

So in essence, foreigners are being arbitrarily fined because of the shortcomings and lack of integration of the creaking, arcane Thai Immigration Police databases.

 

That's par for the course I guess.

[Tanoshi]

13 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Rayong don't need one. Also, I last entered the country on a re-entry permit in late August. I did an online 90-day report in November which was accepted. The Rayong office must have verified my entry from the national TM6 database, otherwise I could have given a false date and TM6 number.

Topics such as TM28's and TM30's always raise conjecture and criticism between members because of the vastly different experiences of rules and procedures we incur at the many different IO's.

To be more specific, a member should always first be asked what IO he uses.

Even then their will be those who state 'I didn't do that' or 'they didn't ask me'.

 

If you follow the law regardless of what your Immigration do or do not 'enforce', you should stay clear of problems and fines.

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Thai Immigration LOVES excessive and unnecessary paperwork and copies of such. For my "retirement" extension, they wanted a copy of every page of passport that had any Thai ink on it. The passport is not new and frequently in and out, so many copies required that NOBODY will ever look at again. We were marveling at the stacks upon stacks of bundled paperwork in many of the cubicles...never to be seen again. Waste of time, paper, money and resources.

 

This is the Digital Age, yet Thailand lags far behind and does not participate. It does however provide tons of lip service to the contrary and pretends alot. 

....and their answer to data protection is to turn your paperwork over and 'recycle' it by handing the full monty (Passport, Bank, etc; completely unredacted & now on the back of an extn template) to the half dozen behind you in the queue...

Edited December 16, 2017 by evadgib

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

So in essence, foreigners are being arbitrarily fined because of the shortcomings and lack of integration of the creaking, arcane Thai Immigration Police databases.

 

That's par for the course I guess.

Well it's still a 'developing' Country.  

Nobody stated when it will be fully developed, but I'd hazard at a guess it won't be in our lifetime.

 

It took 1,009,491 days to build Rome. 

The Thai Immigration Act is only 18,250 days old.

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, evadgib said:

....and their answer to data protection is to turn your paperwork over and 'recycle' it by handing the full monty (Passport, Bank, etc; completely unredacted & now on the back of an extn template) to the half dozen behind you in the queue...

When I asked about their Data Protection Policy, they said it was 7th September.

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

When I asked about their Data Protection Policy, they said it was 7th September.

The guy I asked was wearing a Patpong Lolex and he said the 33rd of Novembury.

??

[Tanoshi]

10 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I guess the chronology is important. You say you started reporting TM30's diligently 'years ago'. Up until mid-2016, I was out of country so frequently that 90-day reports were not needed and I filed the annual retirement extensions without drama. In the past 18 months, I have traveled outside the country less and filed a couple of 90-day reports instead but again, without drama. All this at Jomtien.

Another member in this topic complaining Jomtien are going to town on the TM30 issue.

 

[OJAS]

19 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Rayong don't need one. Also, I last entered the country on a re-entry permit in late August. I did an online 90-day report in November which was accepted. The Rayong office must have verified my entry from the national TM6 database, otherwise I could have given a false date and TM6 number.

Indeed they don't. When I applied for my latest retirement extension there in July a month after my return from a trip to Europe, no request for a fresh TM30 was made to me or my wife (as housemaster).

[OJAS]

20 hours ago, overherebc said:

Why not just stop the TM6 use.

Many countries don't use such a system. Doesn't seem to cause any problems.

The UK certainly does in the case of non-EU nationals!

 

Also, Thailand does not insist on lengthy and complex customs declaration forms being completed in the way that the USA and Australia do, for example!

Edited December 17, 2017 by OJAS

[Tanoshi]

25 minutes ago, OJAS said:

The UK certainly does in the case of non-EU nationals!

How?

[jamie2009]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

How?

My Thai G.F. had to complete a Landing Card this year prior to entering the UK, all Non EU citizens have too.

[OJAS]

22 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

How?

 

12 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

My Thai G.F. had to complete a Landing Card this year prior to entering the UK, all Non EU citizens have too.

This is an image of the UK landing card that non-EU nationals have to fill in at the present time:-

 

 

But it would appear that these may soon be scrapped:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/outdated-landing-cards-to-be-withdrawn-as-part-of-digital-border-transformation

 

[juice777]

In my opinion it confused things even more when it came out.

Yep its a classic YouTube Comedy clip if you ask me.

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[juice777]

How does it confuse you?

I saw this video now for the first time and it clarifies the things finally for me. Now I know that foreigners with a long term visa, making regularly 90 days reports, are not obliged to be reported with their permanent address again when they enter the kingdom. They only have to be reported, if they change their permanent address or if they are traveling withing the kingdom staying overnight in a different home than their permanent address.

Maybe for those on long term visas but not for me on Tourist visas renting a condo leaving the country every 3 months. I still have no idea what to do really and I think I have been taking about this for over a year. And that Video did not help me as my situation was not covered.

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[juice777]

In Chiang Mai .....if you leave the country and come back you have to update your TM 30 within 24 hours......even if you go back to your old address.

It sounds a pain in the bottom but at least you know where you are unlike in pattaya.

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[juice777]

 
 
There's no evidence that Jomtien are consistently and rigorously enforcing TM30-related penalties like Chiang Mai is.
 
There's plenty evidence that people doing immigration business at Jomtien are not being asked for them.
 
There's plenty evidence of TM30's being declined as unnecessary when they are offered during immigration business at Jomtien.
 
Anyway, the OP thought he was going to be fined for a TM30 violation and has subsequently left the building with his wallet intact.

"Anyway, the OP thought he was going to be fined for a TM30 violation and has subsequently left the building with his wallet intact."

Yes but the frustrating thing for me I am still not sure if I have broke any rules or not.

If there is many people confused and people are still talking about it for over a year that proves that the system doesn't work.

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[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, juice777 said:

 

 

"Anyway, the OP thought he was going to be fined for a TM30 violation and has subsequently left the building with his wallet intact."

Yes but the frustrating thing for me I am still not sure if I have broke any rules or not.

If there is many people confused and people are still talking about it for over a year that proves that the system doesn't work.

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If dropping by Jomtien IO every time you return isn't too taxing, you can certainly start playing by Chiang Mai rules and file a TM30 with the reassurance that you are "complying with something" and the only downside being the possible/probable one-off fine. If you do get fined, consider that the membership fee for joining an elite group of Pattaya foreign semi-residents who have one less thing to worry about.

 

For now.

[juice777]

That is in section 37 which is not normally enforced.
If a person is hopping around the country staying in hotels and etc then they do the reporting under sections 38.
There is no requirement when returning back to your permanent residence to do another report under section 38.

So dose that mean if I go to the islands next week and stay in a hotel I don't have 2 report in when I go back to my condo?

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[juice777]

Here's a few for-instances for you guys to ponder.
 
If I stay at a 2-star hotel in my wife's hometown while visiting and they (as always) never bother with getting me to sign in, show passport or anything, in their obvious lack of being compliant with their legal requirement to report any and all foreigners, does the onus then fall on me to file a TM28 at the local immigration office?
 
If I do, will the local IO come down like a ton of bricks on my super friendly, no hassle, free-coffee-in-the-morning-because-I-stay-there-a-lot hotel and thus become a welcome as the proverbial turd in a punchbowl?
 
Does the same TM28 filing apply if I stay overnight at my buddy's retirement ranch because we drank too much and I fell asleep on the sofa?
 
Or does he have to file the TM30 and I am absolved of TM28 duty?

Also if I am lucky enough to have a one night stand with a Tourist do I have to walk her to a photo copying shop in the morning to copy her passport. Or maybe just dump her outside JT imaragtion and let her sort it out.

It's obvious that's not going to happen but I am just curious.

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[juice777]

If dropping by Jomtien IO every time you return isn't too taxing, you can certainly start playing by Chiang Mai rules and file a TM30 with the reassurance that you are "complying with something" and the only downside being the possible/probable one-off fine. If you do get fined, consider that the membership fee for joining an elite group of Pattaya foreign semi-residents who have one less thing to worry about.
 
For now.

I was actually considering that then I won't have to read these Threads anymore. But I now here it can be thr fine plus 200THB a day. I am not sure how many days it would be if they inforced that so it's not a good ideal.

This is the first time I am considering unsubscribing to my own Thread.

Also I think someone who understands the laws should knock up book called TM-30s for dummies

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[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, juice777 said:

So dose that mean if I go to the islands next week and stay in a hotel I don't have 2 report in when I go back to my condo?

I have not seen reports of people being fined for not reporting after trips within Thailand.

 

35 minutes ago, juice777 said:

... I think someone who understands the laws should knock up book called TM-30s for dummies ...

It would need to have a different edition for each immigration office, and due to the speed of changes, it would likely be inaccurate by the time it went to print. 

 

I can imagine a website that has the latest policy for each office, updated as they change their policies - but it would take a lot of work to keep it up to date.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, juice777 said:

So dose that mean if I go to the islands next week and stay in a hotel I don't have 2 report in when I go back to my condo?

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From what I have gleaned (todays word BTW) from all these Jomtien-specific TM30 threads, they are only after those that have been out of the country. It appears that all foreigners are clueless about the purpose the TM6 arrival card... as are most regional IO's.

 

You can do the islands and stay in a hotel and nobody in Soi 5 cares.

 

1 hour ago, juice777 said:

Also if I am lucky enough to have a one night stand with a Tourist do I have to walk her to a photo copying shop in the morning to copy her passport. Or maybe just dump her outside JT imaragtion and let her sort it out.

It's obvious that's not going to happen but I am just curious.

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If it does happen, you simply must post a picture of the hapless Tourist outside Immi. Pixelating the face is acceptable.

 

1 hour ago, juice777 said:

I was actually considering that then I won't have to read these Threads anymore. But I now here it can be thr fine plus 200THB a day. I am not sure how many days it would be if they inforced that so it's not a good ideal.

This is the first time I am considering unsubscribing to my own Thread.

Also I think someone who understands the laws should knock up book called TM-30s for dummies

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I reckon this thread itself is a very good candidate for a contributing chapter of the TM30's for Dummies you seek. A work in progress!