SURVEY: Are you liberal or conservative?

[sirineou]

17 minutes ago, baboon said:

This is an interesting thread. However it goes unfortunately to show the dire state of politics in late 2017: A few on both sides of the political spectrum interested in honest debate and discourse being shouted down by others who just bellow slogans at one another and cannot or will not make any inroads as to why others think the way they do.

How did (wo)mankind become this - quite frankly - stupid? 

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy?

 

[baboon]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy?

 

Yes I have. At the time it was a comedy. Now it is up there with the prophetic novels of Orwell and I don't imagine Mike Judge would welcome the comparison...

[lannarebirth]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's a very complex political question.

But more advance nations are already seeing the wisdom of a basic minimum income.

The automation of menial jobs is already happening and it will accelerate. 

Obviously the focus needs to be on preparing youth for work that can't be automated, and those classes of work will be shrinking over time, so it's a moving target. 

It's really a matter of balance.

The way the  USA is going with economic inequality and the future of automation, you're looking at a dystopian fascist future of creating a MASSIVE hungry, violent, desperate underclass (easily over half the population) that will threaten those with anything and necessitate building even more prisons in a nation already famous for locking up way too many people, at great taxpayer expense.

Much much more civilized to provide something BASIC for everyone and then everything else based on INCENTIVES. 

With technology the people either can't adapt and are stuck in BASIC or those that are truly lazy and choose BASIC, such people won't have to live like animals. There can be virtual reality solutions to enrich their lives. 

 

You left out the part where you pass out the Soma and culling the herd at the crematoriums.

[lannarebirth]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I would call my ideology Democrat Socialist Futurist. The nations that are going to lead and have the best quality of life will be the ones that embrace the AI and automation revolutions most aggressively including their profound implications for the future of work. trump does the opposite.

 

Such a path would be painful for many but not following it will be more painful for many more.

 

Not all nations are advanced enough yet to be at the forefront of this. The USA could but won't. Socialism phobia strikes again.

 

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The government you described is fascist not socialist. 

[Ruffian Dick]

23 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

You left out the part where you pass out the Soma and culling the herd at the crematoriums.

Pot will be legal in California as of Jan 1, 2018.

[pegman]

18 hours ago, baboon said:

The clue lies in my avatar...

Mine too.

[canuckamuck]

I took that political compass test and I came out in the center vertically and just 2 ticks to the left. These days that probably paints me as a right wing authoritarian. Whereas the truth is I have my head on straight and y'all should be paying attention to my sagacious commentaries.

[Samui Bodoh]

6 hours ago, baboon said:

This is an interesting thread. However it goes unfortunately to show the dire state of politics in late 2017: A few on both sides of the political spectrum interested in honest debate and discourse being shouted down by others who just bellow slogans at one another and cannot or will not make any inroads as to why others think the way they do.

How did (wo)mankind become this - quite frankly - stupid? 

Respectfully, mankind has always been this stupid; the difference is that now with the Net we actually know about it. And I really, really wish I was joking when I said that.

 

My own view is that we lack the proper language to adequately discuss politics, especially when we are limited to written forms such as this; it is easy to figure out your husband's/wife's politics (for example) as you see them all the time. It is hard to truly understand someone's politics based on some writings in a forum; it is merely a shallow dive.

 

It is time for the Political Scientists to create new language/labels/representations/symbols to allow us to express our political views more accurately; the days of calling someone a "right-winger" or a "left-winger" are over.

 

[pegman]

11 hours ago, Catoni said:

  Obviously SOME taxation is necessary, for the defence of the country, protection of citizens from criminals, firefighters...that sort of thing...  I would guess 10% - 15% might be reasonable.

        But NOT so much taxation that they grab 45 % - 50 % or more of all I earn....  THAT is nothing more than legal plunder. Especially when they use the money I worked to earn to pay for crimes like partial birth abortion on demand. Or to use my hard earned money to reward unrepentant Islamic killers like Omar Kahdr $10.6 MILLION for being inconvenienced in Guantanamo. 

   They sure as hell never asked me my opinion...  and I never voted for the weed smoking part time high school dama teacher JustinTrudeau.  

      I voted for Stephen Harper.  

You Tories spend half your time whining about taxes the other half sceaming ways to pay none. Harpo got his butt handed to him by young Justin. Get over it.

[Catoni]

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

The government you described is fascist not socialist. 

      You know what's funny?   If you look up the definition of fascism in the Merriam-Webster dictionary..... the definition also fits Communism.  

     Fascism:   a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

 

      I know that in the dictator Hitler's Germany.... the only real difference between the communists and Nazis economically was that the communists totally nationalized all industry and the means of production...  where in Nazism they would let the factory owners keep their factory...(at least on paper...  but tell the owner what to produce and how much to produce and what to pay and charge.. So although the Nazis let the owner keep the factory, they actually took control from the owner.

 

     I like the political spectrum that..instead of Fascists/Nazis on the extreme right and Communism on the extreme left.....  puts all forms of total government, (communism... and communism's cousins the fascists and nazis...and also total monarchies and theocracies) on the extreme left...     and No Government at All/Anarchy.. on the extreme right.     That way.. the spectrum goes from the extreme of no government... to total government dicatorship.

 

    Everything else...would fall somewhere between the two extremes.... 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Catoni

[Catoni]

4 hours ago, pegman said:

You Tories spend half your time whining about taxes the other half sceaming ways to pay none. Harpo got his butt handed to him by young Justin. Get over it.

 

      Oh... you like pictures do you ? ? 

 

  Here's your weed smoking part time high school drama teacher Justin Trudeau at prayer...

 

  He'll be gone next election.  I hope you will be able to get over it... 

 

   

[Catoni]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You keep tweaking it. You're a purist. I'm not. The future is coming and it may be a fascist dystopian one but I think we can do much much better.

 

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Jingthing posted:    "The future is coming and it may be a fascist dystopian one but I think we can do much much better."

 

      To the ordinary man in the street, it doesn't matter whether the boot crushing his freedom is fascist, nazi, communist/dictatorial socialist or Islamic fundamentalist like Iran, or an absolute old fashioned monarchy with a crazy dictatorial king.

      They are ALL bad and nightmarish.

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, Catoni said:

      You know what's funny?   If you look up the definition of fascism in the Merriam-Webster dictionary..... the definition also fits Communism.  

     Fascism:   a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

 

      I know that in the dictator Hitler's Germany.... the only real difference between the communists and Nazis economically was that the communists totally nationalized all industry and the means of production...  where in Nazism they would let the factory owners keep their factory...(at least on paper...  but tell the owner what to produce and how much to produce and what to pay and charge.. So although the Nazis let the owner keep the factory, they actually took control from the owner.

 

     I like the political spectrum that..instead of Fascists/Nazis on the extreme right and Communism on the extreme left.....  puts all forms of total government, (communism... and communism's cousins the fascists and nazis...and also total monarchies and theocracies) on the extreme left...     and No Government at All/Anarchy.. on the extreme right.     That way.. the spectrum goes from the extreme of no government... to total government dicatorship.

 

    Everything else...would fall somewhere between the two extremes.... 

 

 

That's an IDIOTIC propaganda graphic.

Authoritarian governments can exist on the left and right.

That graphic is garbage by asserting it is only possible from the left.

No wonder you spout uneducated views as you do if you actually buy such total lies. 

[Becker]

2 hours ago, Catoni said:

      You know what's funny?   If you look up the definition of fascism in the Merriam-Webster dictionary..... the definition also fits Communism.  

     Fascism:   a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

 

      I know that in the dictator Hitler's Germany.... the only real difference between the communists and Nazis economically was that the communists totally nationalized all industry and the means of production...  where in Nazism they would let the factory owners keep their factory...(at least on paper...  but tell the owner what to produce and how much to produce and what to pay and charge.. So although the Nazis let the owner keep the factory, they actually took control from the owner.

 

     I like the political spectrum that..instead of Fascists/Nazis on the extreme right and Communism on the extreme left.....  puts all forms of total government, (communism... and communism's cousins the fascists and nazis...and also total monarchies and theocracies) on the extreme left...     and No Government at All/Anarchy.. on the extreme right.     That way.. the spectrum goes from the extreme of no government... to total government dicatorship.

 

    Everything else...would fall somewhere between the two extremes.... 

 

 

What a  breathtakingly simplistic view. No wonder you like it.

[Becker]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

That's an IDIOTIC propaganda graphic.

Authoritarian governments can exist on the left and right.

That graphic is garbage by asserting it is only possible from the left.

No wonder you spout uneducated views as you do if you actually buy such total lies. 

Give the guy a break - he's been wronged by Trudeau. Probably fancies the guy but got turned down.

[pegman]

3 hours ago, Catoni said:

      Oh... you like pictures do you ? ? 

 

  Here's your weed smoking part time high school drama teacher Justin Trudeau at prayer...

 

  He'll be gone next election.  I hope you will be able to get over it... 

 

   

I've got no use for Liberals but young Justin will be in for four terms. Maybe you need a reminder what he has done toTories, so here you go:

 

 

[attrayant]

33 minutes ago, pegman said:

I've got no use for Liberals

 

You could grind their bones into bread.  Waste not, want not.

[Catoni]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's an IDIOTIC propaganda graphic.

Authoritarian governments can exist on the left and right.

That graphic is garbage by asserting it is only possible from the left.

No wonder you spout uneducated views as you do if you actually buy such total lies. 

 Your right wing Fascism/Nasism........to left wing Communism..... leaves no room for the Anarchist who believes in no government at all...... 

   The whole spectrum is simply varitions on international socialism/communism to national socialism/fascism.

   The line between them is simply a line of variations on socialism of one kind or another or less or more extreme of socialism.   There is no room for the Anarchists...  

    It makes no sense and the old left/right was dreamed up to explain party seating in the French Parliament. It arose In France in 1789 where the terms originated, the Left has been called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order".

"One deputy, the Baron de Gauville, explained: "We began to recognize each other: those who were loyal to religion and the king took up positions to the right of the chair so as to avoid the shouts, oaths, and indecencies that enjoyed free rein in the opposing camp". However, the Right opposed the seating arrangement because they believed that deputies should support private or general interests but should not form factions or political parties. The contemporary press occasionally used the terms "left" and "right" to refer to the opposing sides."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left–right_political_spectrum

                  

      It makes simple common sense for the political spectrum to go from the extreme of no government at all..... Anarchy.... to total government dictatorships like fascism, nazism, communism in its many variations, theocratic dictatorships, absolute monarchies etc. 

     You don't start counting at 100 and go to 100.. do you ? ?  You start at 0 and go to 100.

[pegman]

4 hours ago, Catoni said:

 Your right wing Fascism/Nasism........to left wing Communism..... leaves no room for the Anarchist who believes in no government at all...... 

   The whole spectrum is simply varitions on international socialism/communism to national socialism/fascism.

   The line between them is simply a line of variations on socialism of one kind or another or less or more extreme of socialism.   There is no room for the Anarchists...  

    It makes no sense and the old left/right was dreamed up to explain party seating in the French Parliament. It arose In France in 1789 where the terms originated, the Left has been called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order".

"One deputy, the Baron de Gauville, explained: "We began to recognize each other: those who were loyal to religion and the king took up positions to the right of the chair so as to avoid the shouts, oaths, and indecencies that enjoyed free rein in the opposing camp". However, the Right opposed the seating arrangement because they believed that deputies should support private or general interests but should not form factions or political parties. The contemporary press occasionally used the terms "left" and "right" to refer to the opposing sides."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left–right_political_spectrum

                  

      It makes simple common sense for the political spectrum to go from the extreme of no government at all..... Anarchy.... to total government dictatorships like fascism, nazism, communism in its many variations, theocratic dictatorships, absolute monarchies etc. 

     You don't start counting at 100 and go to 100.. do you ? ?  You start at 0 and go to 100.

If you were a Harper voter I'll put you down as a zero. I'm a social democrate myself so we are likely to agree on nothing.

[pegman]

On December 18, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Jingthing said:

Those words mean very different things in different countries in different eras.

 

But I did pick very liberal because of my support for these policies in my home country.

 

-- Universal minimum income (as menial jobs get automated that is the only civilized way to go)

 

-- Universal basic clean and safe housing in mini units (you want better then work for it)

 

--  Move quickly away from private car culture. It's happening anyway, but speed it up.

 

-- Universal health care

 

-- College and after college free, based on merit/performance but aggressive diversion to vocational studies as well. 

 

-- Free high speed net access for all

 

-- Aggressive policies to greatly reduce economic equality. Reasonable class differences are normal and needed, but in the USA it has become OBSCENE and the current regime is making it much worse. 

 

-- Social issues libertarian

 

-- Legalize all drugs but focus on education and addiction prevention/treatment as well

 

-- Voting, MANDATORY, like Australia, fine those that don't vote, and prison sentences for anyone obstructing voting of citizens. 

 

-- Immigration. Not so liberal. Open borders are not acceptable. Adopt a humane policy of gradually legalizing current law abiding undocumented people, deport the criminals, and start over with more of a merit based system like Australia. 

Basic income is already happening. As a social democrate I agree with this program. It was attempted in my province in the 1970's but was before it's time.

 

https://tvo.org/video/programs/the-agenda-with-steve-paikin/basic-income-comes-to-lindsay

[Catoni]

6 hours ago, pegman said:

If you were a Harper voter I'll put you down as a zero. I'm a social democrate myself so we are likely to agree on nothing.

      Fascism and Communism and all totalitarian governments belong on the left....  Anarchy on the far right... 

 

      I know that the socialists/communists left don't like to be gouped with fascists....  but that is were they belong.

      

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Catoni
correction

[lannarebirth]

42 minutes ago, Catoni said:

      Fascism and Communism and all totalitarian governments belong on the left....  Anarchy on the far right... 

 

      I know that the socialists/communists left don't like to be gouped with fascists....  but that is were they belong.

      

 

 

That wasn't always the case that fascists and socialists were more or less the same. It comes down to the means of production. Fascists used to believe in nationalism and a too close relationship with oligarchs. Socialists would have the state control the means of production. Socialists these days are very comfortable with the corporate state as long as they're given a pittance in the form of basic income to buy what they need from those same corporations.

[Catoni]

12 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That wasn't always the case that fascists and socialists were more or less the same. It comes down to the means of production. Fascists used to believe in nationalism and a too close relationship with oligarchs. Socialists would have the state control the means of production. Socialists these days are very comfortable with the corporate state as long as they're given a pittance in the form of basic income to buy what they need from those same corporations.

"Socialists would have the state control the means of production."      Same with fascists (since they are merely a type of socialist).  They let the factory owner continue to "own" the factory on paper... but the tell the owner where to buy his raw materials, what to produce, how much to produce, and what to pay the workers and how much to sell the product for. 

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Catoni said:

"Socialists would have the state control the means of production."      Same with fascists (since they are merely a type of socialist).  They let the factory owner continue to "own" the factory on paper... but the tell the owner where to buy his raw materials, what to produce, how much to produce, and what to pay the workers and how much to sell the product for. 

You've got that wrong but it's not my job to school you.

[Catoni]

5 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

You've got that wrong but it's not my job to school you.

"You've  got that wrong..."      Cite & reference ? ? 

 

"...but it's not my job to school you."     Not your job ?  Or not knowledgable enough ? 

[lannarebirth]

7 hours ago, Catoni said:

"You've  got that wrong..."      Cite & reference ? ? 

 

"...but it's not my job to school you."     Not your job ?  Or not knowledgable enough ? 

 

I'm not sure why everyone always wants to see a link to reinforce a comment someone makes. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they completed high school at some point and their main news sources aren't Peter Schiff or some other such outlet.

 

https://differencebetweenz.com/difference-between-socialism-and-fascism/

Edited December 20, 2017 by lannarebirth

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.  

[JAG]

I really can't make my mind up whether I am a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal...

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[Coconutman]

On 12/18/2017 at 3:40 PM, Catoni said:

     Wow..... who are the lucky ones that are made to pay for all of that free stuff ? ?

 

    How do you get to be ones of the lucky ones who get to receive it all ? ? 

 

   Do you take money by force of law away from those who earn it... and give it to those who have not earned it?

 

   Or do you borrow from the next few generations for them to worry about someday finally having paying for it?

 

  Just curious..   

 

    

Some will never get that givernments produce nothing