30 yrs rental contract, ex-wife mortgaged the house to get money !

[tonray]

Just now, giddyup said:

In my case it was the only way I would have bought a house in her name. I imagine that's a pretty good incentive.

So you mean you provided 'rent' in the form of cash in 'consideration' for a lease ? 

 

Hmm....sounds like 30 years of rent to me...and to the law

[beavercreek]

20 minutes ago, tonray said:

As far as I know, there is nothing to prevent a foreigner from giving a (mortgage) loan to a Thai. So a better level of protection might be to loan the money to the wife and get a 30 year lease as consideration to reside in the property. Every month, the balance of the loan could be reduced by the imputed value of the lease rental. So, yes she still owns the home but you also have some control over the loan.

 

If house is sold, balance of loan must be paid off before deal closes. Lease and loan terminate concurrently. Otherwise the documents the Land Office makes both spouses sign dictate that no matter who provided the cash, the Thai spouse owns the home and can control it. 

 

 

My attorney did incorporate a loan agreement and a will into my house purchase, however, I think it is clearly illegal for a foreigner to even act as a money exchange.  Otherwise, the whole country would be loan shark city, more than it already is.  Financing your own condo..to someone...possibly OK.  Loaning or giving money to someone for the purpose of acquiring real estate is totally illegal.  And the land offices have been know to get the farang to sign that he has no ownership stake in it, while knowing damn well where the money came from.

[YetAnother]

3 hours ago, JohnnyBKK said:

Will they take it from me ?

that is how the thai system is structured (good luck, tho)

[beavercreek]

14 minutes ago, tonray said:

So you mean you provided 'rent' in the form of cash in 'consideration' for a lease ? 

 

Hmm....sounds like 30 years of rent to me...and to the law

And that is another grey area in the deal...a rent amount that is anywhere near realistic, because you pay 1% right there on the total..we tried 300,000 and it was upped to 500,000...3 million would have been a lot closer.. but still, you have to pay about 12.6% rent tax every year...that "they probably won't collect," but that is rapidly changing, and as many know with taxes..penalties and interest snowball worse than a bar tab at a crooked karaoke.

[JohnnyBKK]

The paper states that I have to pay 30K baht per year for 30 years for a total of 900K thb.

It was registered by myself and her at the land office in Hua Hin and a paper was attached to the land deed.

I myself received another paper with a red stamp.

 

In 2017 I sent way more than 30K, so she can't say that I didn't pay her.

 

We did this WAY after the divorce, maybe 2 or 3 years after. As she was gambling I got worried she might gamble the house and she agreed that some loan sharks might come after the house. So we decided to do this as a protection for both of us.

 

Now she sent me a scan of a paper stating that a mortgage of over 1 million thb was registered on the house at the land office. She will never repay this mortgage. 

 

We had an agreement between that I could stay there rent free forever as I paid for everything. But now if the bank takes the home, I will have to pay those 30K thb per year to the bank, will the bank contact me ? How this thing works ?

[midas]

Regarding wives doing something questionable behind your back has some vague similarities to the case that Jonathan Head from the BBC was trying to cover (before he himself was accused of defamation).

2 British expats Ian Rance and Irishman Colin Vard  are now living almost penniless with their children on the outskirts of Bangkok as they struggle against overwhelming odds to recover properties they bought on Phuket.

 

The Phuket property nightmare

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34346620

Edited January 26, 2018 by midas

[beavercreek]

43 minutes ago, JohnnyBKK said:

The paper states that I have to pay 30K baht per year for 30 years for a total of 900K thb.

It was registered by myself and her at the land office in Hua Hin and a paper was attached to the land deed.

I myself received another paper with a red stamp.

 

In 2017 I sent way more than 30K, so she can't say that I didn't pay her.

 

We did this WAY after the divorce, maybe 2 or 3 years after. As she was gambling I got worried she might gamble the house and she agreed that some loan sharks might come after the house. So we decided to do this as a protection for both of us.

 

Now she sent me a scan of a paper stating that a mortgage of over 1 million thb was registered on the house at the land office. She will never repay this mortgage. 

 

We had an agreement between that I could stay there rent free forever as I paid for everything. But now if the bank takes the home, I will have to pay those 30K thb per year to the bank, will the bank contact me ? How this thing works ?

If you didn't pay it up front, in a prepaid lease, then, yes, the mortgage company will always cover there are on that and they are fully aware of having to take back a property with a tenant..otherwise, any tom, dick, or somchai could get a low down loan and quit paying, and collect rent for the term of the lease.  Secured loans are all about them getting paid in all scenarios, including fire.  There is recourse here, so your ex will have them on her bvacks forever, simply giving the house back doesn't cancel the debt.

Edited January 26, 2018 by beavercreek

[willi2006]

37 minutes ago, JohnnyBKK said:

2017 I sent way more than 30K, so she can't say that I didn't pay her.

Better to pay exactly as written in the contract, amount and time. Otherwise she could claim the money was for something else, you didn't pay the rent, you didn't fulfill the contract and she can cancel the contract.

[JohnnyBKK]

1 minute ago, willi2006 said:

Better to pay exactly as written in the contract, amount and time. Otherwise she could claim the money was for something else, you didn't pay the rent, you didn't fulfill the contract and she can cancel the contract.

What a joke... last year she sold my car without my consent too, by forging my signature. I didn't care much because it was an old car.

 

Is there something else she can do to make problems to me ? Can she take a loan on my behalf ? Can I end up in jail or without my passport if she sign anything on my behalf ?

[Khun Jean]

Time to dig up some old paperwork, especially transactions.

Any payment made without a 'rent' description can be categorized differently.

I could be possible if you do not have REAL proof of rent payments, the bank will start asking for the rent still due.

But then again 30k per year is peanuts and solving that problem is not the greatest.

 

[willi2006]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyBKK said:

Is there something else she can do to make problems to me ? Can she take a loan on my behalf ? Can I end up in jail or without my passport if she sign anything on my behalf ?

There are a lot illegal actions she can take if she wants. In this case I would go to police, preferable with a lawyer.

[willi2006]

8 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

Time to dig up some old paperwork, especially transactions.

As far as I know this isn't necessary. When a payment is overdue she must complain immediately and not after the next payment is overdue.

[beavercreek]

Letting her get away with forgery was a bad precursor to this...the forgery was illegal, taking the loan was not.  Make sure you clearly live there...abandonment can play into this.  You got power, internet, water in your name?

[Khun Jean]

2 minutes ago, willi2006 said:

As far as I know this isn't necessary. When a payment is overdue she must complain immediately and not after the next payment is overdue.

It is to prevent the 'i said, she said' problem. Any proof is better then none.

 

[willi2006]

Maybe the loan was illegal too. When you have registered a 30 year lease in the chanot your signature is required to register a mortgage in the chanot. I had this case myself. And who would give 1 million without being registered in the chanot.

[JohnnyBKK]

4 minutes ago, beavercreek said:

Letting her get away with forgery was a bad precursor to this...the forgery was illegal, taking the loan was not.  Make sure you clearly live there...abandonment can play into this.  You got power, internet, water in your name?

I left that home years ago, a bunch of dudes came to steal all my stuff, some relatives of her shoot them, police got involded, a lot of things happened, I left in case the relatives of the robbers would come back.

 

Let's say I lose that home, what else can happen to me ? Let's imagine for a moment that she wants to make bad things. What could she do ?

[Khun Jean]

4 minutes ago, willi2006 said:

Maybe the loan was illegal too. When you have registered a 30 year lease in the chanot your signature is required to register a mortgage in the chanot. I had this case myself. And who would give 1 million without being registered in the chanot.

The op has said: "Now she sent me a scan of a paper stating that a mortgage of over 1 million thb was registered on the house at the land office. She will never repay this mortgage. "

 

Basically she just sold the house. Selling to a 'normal' buyer would be very difficult. That the bank gave that much money tells something about the worth of the house, it might be 10 million. Banks do not really care about giving loans.It is just a number on a piece of paper anyway.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Khun Jean

[beavercreek]

If you aren't living there, your rights will be minimal.  No limit to what women with no money and vendetta Weill do.

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

In my case it was the only way I would have bought a house in her name. I imagine that's a pretty good incentive.

 

There is a usufruct and there is a lease, two different things.

 

A usufruct is an agreement between 2 people and can be for life, and no rent is required.

 

A lease is commercial and can be maximum 30 years, and on the agreement also a price is agreed on.

 

If your lease agreement doesn't specify that you paid the lease upfront for the next 30 years, you better have signed receipts and proof of bank transfers, when the shit hits the fan.

[BEVUP]

Of cause the loan is not with a bank 

What ! a Mill on a house worth what & having a lease

It's been put on by the head gamblers

So what is the difference from having a lease & a Usufrut ? Why would the Lease need to agree ?

Well I know for sure & have been stating it here for maybe the last yr that the land owner can at any time without your permission sell or mortgage the property that has a Usufrut on it

So what makes a lease any different ?

 

So if the OP is in a reasonably good safe location he could stay there for quite a while

 

I have a Usufrut on an abandened property & the new owner will not negotiate so the hell with him as it will only be another 20 yrs before he can sell 

[tonray]

2 hours ago, beavercreek said:

And that is another grey area in the deal...a rent amount that is anywhere near realistic, because you pay 1% right there on the total..we tried 300,000 and it was upped to 500,000...3 million would have been a lot closer.. but still, you have to pay about 12.6% rent tax every year...that "they probably won't collect," but that is rapidly changing, and as many know with taxes..penalties and interest snowball worse than a bar tab at a crooked karaoke.

I thought the tax was only applicable if the lessor (grantor of the lease) does not reside at the property.

[MaeJoMTB]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Think your money bought the house and you have no input into what she wants to do with it...

I'm be more worried about imminent accidental death.

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

If it's a proper registered lease (usufruct) then that should still be valid for the full 30 year period so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

If she doesn't repay a secured loan then they will take it off her (the property) but your lease will still be valid - assuming it's all registered with the land department, etc. In my opinion you would probably be better off with the bank owning it for the next 30 years or however long is left on the lease than your ex.

 

From what I've heard banks will lend against a lease encumbered property but it will be a greatly reduced amount compared to what you would be able to borrow without the lease being present.

 

If I were you I'd double check that the 30 year lease is all registered and above board at the land department.

 

If it's just an informal lease then you're screwed.

 

 

I have a usufruct on the land title document. It's worked that the house cannot be sold without my written permission, even if my Thai son dies and the property is bequeathed to his Thai wife.

 

The wording used was specifically to the instructions my son gave to the lawyer who arranged the usufruct. Son wanted it this way to in a round about way protect his daughters. 

 

But I don't know if that's the standard / only wording possible.

 

[beavercreek]

25 minutes ago, tonray said:

I thought the tax was only applicable if the lessor (grantor of the lease) does not reside at the property.

Could be...in my case the attorney wasn't living with me, even though she was a solid "9," and was invited to do so.  That was 12 years ago, and the rental tax was rarely collected, but they were known to occasionally canvas the neighborhood and collect.  I think this whole TM30 thing has something to do with unregistered rentals and unpaid taxes..especially with foreigners involved, but plenty of Thais have been caught up, too.

[impulse]

7 hours ago, JohnnyBKK said:

Is there something else she can do to make problems to me ? Can she take a loan on my behalf ? Can I end up in jail or without my passport if she sign anything on my behalf ?

 

Sure.  She can get into debt to some loan sharks, and they don't care what the rules are.  You'll move out, or they'll make you wish you had.

 

[JohnnyBKK]

24 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Sure.  She can get into debt to some loan sharks, and they don't care what the rules are.  You'll move out, or they'll make you wish you had.

 

I'm already out of that home, I'm talking about thailand

[impulse]

7 hours ago, BEVUP said:

I have a Usufrut on an abandened property & the new owner will not negotiate so the hell with him as it will only be another 20 yrs before he can sell 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a usufruct end when your life ends? 

 

And wouldn't that violate the Thai expat rule of thumb that suggests you always want to be worth more alive than dead?

 

[BEVUP]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a usufruct end when your life ends? 

 

And wouldn't that violate the Thai expat rule of thumb that suggests you always want to be worth more alive than dead?

 

Yep your right, but not a problem so far (some 3-4 yrs now )

He can't sell the place (even had a couple come look ) 

He offered a re buy at 1.8 mill (worth 2.5 )

Then 1.5

Then 1.2 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, BEVUP said:

5 hours ago, impulse said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a usufruct end when your life ends? 

 

And wouldn't that violate the Thai expat rule of thumb that suggests you always want to be worth more alive than dead?

Yep your right, but not a problem so far (some 3-4 yrs now )

He can't sell the place (even had a couple come look ) 

He offered a re buy at 1.8 mill (worth 2.5 )

Then 1.5

Then 1.2 

 

Of course, I'm taking some liberties (along with a little bit of the piss) with my post.  But I'd be real nervous about the prospect that my existence is costing a local over 1.3 million baht (according to your valuations). 

 

Probably 90+% would just stew over it- just like all over the world where the majority of people are basically decent folk.  But there's always a percentage that will hire someone for a few thousand baht to make the problem (-that's you-) go away.  And even if the landlord wouldn't think of it, someone in his extended family may decide to help him out. 

 

With minimal chance in Thailand of being caught if it can be made to look even a little like a foreigner's suicide.

Edited January 27, 2018 by impulse

[MaeJoMTB]

15 minutes ago, impulse said:

Probably 90+% would just stew over it- just like all over the world where the majority of people are basically decent folk. 

I think you're wrong, the 90% wouldn't have lent the money.

The 10% with a quick result in mind would.