Do I have enough money?

[4evermaat]

If you do get married (on paper), remember that if you do not want to tie up your funds in the bank, you can opt to do ME Non-immigrant O visa either from UK or Savannakhet, Laos. Savananakhet has no financial proof requirement; so only the other paperwork + 5000 THB.  This would require that you do a border run every 90 days and get up to 15 months on one ME non-O (if you do the last border run shortly before the visa expires; 17 months if you extend that last entry for 60 days at local immigration with your wife) 

 

Not sure how that would work from hua hin.  You could switch to a 1 year extension of stay based on Thai marriage on the last 30-40 days of any of your entries at local immigration.  But you need to have 400k in thai bank or 40k/month affidavit from your embassy to do 1 year extension.

[gk10002000]

So you don't have a pension.  Nothing?  No state income of any kind?  Well damn better not spend you cash down up front.

[Aussieroaming]

3 hours ago, zaZa9 said:

Yes , Ive been here 10 years ,  from age 50 ,  but  that  reserve has diminished only about $50k , all in the initial stage of relocating , buying a truck and having a darn good year or 2 as a single man.

Its stayed up pretty well  because of the somewhat peculiar situation wherein  Aus has delivered consistently good super and bank interest rates compared to most of the countries my expat neighbours are from.

But unlike the Brits , I wont automatically receive an aged pension Im due at 65. Since Ive been here the Aus government has decided to punish expats by demanding they return home ( and  probably further burden the Aus economy )  for TWO years before they will 'grant' us our pensions that we paid tax toward all our lives..

I certainly dont live the high life in my current relatively expensive ( for Thailand ) location. I  live on 70k to 80k a month and I guess its something like a 'middle' Middle Class  Thai existence. I havent got a Villa  or  even a pool where I rent   ( but its a nice house and spot , with great beaches )  ,  I dont do brunch at any resort , and the price of golf here precludes me dropping $100 aud a game. ( Simply because I live within my means and that seems like a lot.)  And my Thai lady works. 

I do travel a bit because I like it , but its  all S.E. Asia and 3 star hotels or g/hses.

And we eat and drink very well..

But once I factor in a trip or 2 home , health insurance , and running a coupla bikes and a truck , I cant get my budget less than 70k.

 

I take my hat off to those who can live on 50k !

You sound like you are doing well and enjoying life and that's the main thing. I'm in the same situation in regards to a future Aussie Pension, hence I have factored in never having a pension to fall back on. The big unknown is how far 70k baht will get you in 20 years, so for me I factored in a yearly 5% inflation rate and assumed that my wife earns 0, whereas she does earn pretty well at present. I've decided to target retirement at 60 or a bit before if I can keep earning a good income now.

[zaZa9]

Ive also given up the idea of falling back on a pension.

But I guess if I was REAL desperate I have that safety net ...

 

An accountant friend has pointed out that if one had  800k aud cash , and spent 1 million a year,  he then had 20 years before it ran out. Yes , he conceded there is inflation , but also pointed out that at a 5% return , there is 1 million baht currently coming in. So "the pot" is untouched.

My 10 year av. return on bank interest and super he worked out  has been 5.94 % . So some money going  back in after those 1st expensive 2 years .. not too bad for no real effort or worries I guess , and anything I earn over the 950k baht I spend ( max ) is  added to the pot. 

 

The other wild card is currencies ... I budgeted for 28 tb on the $1 aud. It got up to 29 , plummeted to 23 briefly ,  recovered to av. 30 for quite a while , and now sits at 25. Who knows what will happen with currencies , but Im guessing 25 is the new norm because the Aus government seems to want it like that. But who knows ?

 

You mention the 'big unknown' , and I think  that is what holds so many back from retiring early to somewhere else besides their own country... even simply retiring early at home.  The old "What if .." factor gnaws away , and they bury the idea , and   they go and get ready for work . 

For some 2 million aud would still not be "safe" enough..

 

My feelings are that taking the plunge is a great thing to do and I admire the Ops brave approach to it all.

But once you get used to having all the day to yourself , and doing what YOU want ( within reason and not to the detriment of your health/pocket  ) to do when you want to do it , it must be VERY hard to go back to work back home. Even more so if you have formed attachments here . I have , and besides her Im attached to my daily swim , my long walks , my good reads , a coupla beers with mates of many Nationalities , the tropical  weather , the excellent food she churns out ...I could go on...555

 

So careful planning and some sort of reasonable budget in order to stay on here  is what Im advocating and why I posted here.

A healthy dose of the  "Its my money.."  reality is also required in retiring to  LOS , as god knows there will be suggested a myriad of ways to spend it  , and the option of working here , with your attachments  still with you ,  is extremely limited by law.

 

But good on the Op for asking , and he is surely now better informed , and also  I read with interest those who can do it cheaper than I can !

[Nemises]

Nice post zaza9 [emoji106]

 

Is it possible to “move” your assets to qualify for the pension as well? (After doing the 2 years prior residence back in Aus)

 

 

[zaZa9]

Im not sure Gregster.

Im not going back for 2 years and thats that.

But you do touch on something I havent looked up for ages - and that is that a cash reserve of $ 800k aud probably precludes one even getting a pension in Aus in the first place..

Do you know the ruling ?

 

[rhodie]

17 minutes ago, zaZa9 said:

Im not sure Gregster.

Im not going back for 2 years and thats that.

But you do touch on something I havent looked up for ages - and that is that a cash reserve of $ 800k aud probably precludes one even getting a pension in Aus in the first place..

Do you know the ruling ?

 

As a single person, you can own a property and have $255,000 and get the full pension or $455,000 if you have no property. No pension at about $550,000 and $750,000. There is a good thread running here with up to date info.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by rhodie

[Nemises]

Im not sure Gregster.
Im not going back for 2 years and thats that.
But you do touch on something I havent looked up for ages - and that is that a cash reserve of $ 800k aud probably precludes one even getting a pension in Aus in the first place..
Do you know the ruling ?
 

There’s no escaping the 2 year “home detention” rule, but as you’re not going back the pension is off your table unfortunately.

But IF you changed your mind and did your 2 years penance AND provided you resided in AU (for 35 years after 16 years of age) AND you “moved” a big chunk of your $800K you should qualify for the full pension...and pocket about another 725,000B per year

[zaZa9]

First .. sorry to the OP if this thread has gone a little off track , as so many do , but this TV place  is a great opportunity to share info !

Thanks rhodie for the link , and so now I see the pertinence of  Gregs question...

 

And , if Im not wrong , its , "Can a person living in S. E. Asia make their  hard earned and tax paid savings ( and I should  be careful now )  'diminish ' to a magic  number that satisfies the  same authority who promised them a pension and is now renigging on that promise ?"

 

I would say , "Yes".

This is Asia !

 

I dont know the mechanics ... but I know people here who have moved money to Asia from Aus , and that monies where abouts is not publicly available ,   but all I know is they  did so before  the " 2 year Prison Sentence" ruling.

 

For now , and since most of my reserves are locked in to  a Super Fund operated by a government entity that is State backed against insolvency , and returning excellent dividends   , I know I cant very well be happy with that AND have my money off shore..

 

The good thing about Super is that after the age of 60 there is no income tax payable . The returns are exceptional ( currently near 10% ) , and its possible to pile $540k aud into it between the ages of 56 to 60 iirc...

( But Membership  was , thankfully , forced upon me when I was a Gov. employee  30 years ago  - so not sure if just anyone can sign up any time. But I think it is possible ...)

I urge anyone who ever worked at all for the NSW gov. and had 'Super' taken out ( even $50 !) to look into the First State Super  scheme... really ! Three years ago , and on-line  I  moved $540k aud  from a fixed term bank deal at 2.4 % to them and got 7% a return  year later!

 

I guess all of my posts above are NOT about getting the pension , but more about  staying long term in Thailand and what reserves are needed  to achieve that without any 'help'.

Im confident some could do it with the same returns with $600k in Aus super to.

Just have a single scooter.

Live in an 8k studio in my pricier  location , or a house maybe in Pats or the country or even CMai.

Not splash out on wine and cheese  ( exey here and my downfall ) or go travelling to other countries .

And not go for a quiet massage in another town twice a week ...

 

Some readers will go , "well thats easy " , and there , I  would reply , "Well then , you CAN afford it .. If you only spend your incomings , or a tad more , the pot you acquired will stay pretty much intact."

[nopsled]

I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who responded to this thread.  Some replies were pretty harsh, but that does not mean I don't pay them heed.  There was some very useful information too.  I did kind of put it out there as if I had not given any of it any though at all.  Not quite true, but I was not thinking with absolute clarity I admit.  Love clouds perception somewhat, which is why I asked the question, knowing I would be slapped back down to earth :-)  I'm pretty, sure in the near future, I will be going with plan B.  Rent out my flat and move in with her.  We will see how our joint incomes, and our relationship lasts.  Hopefully we can build something bigger and better together.

 

I will be keeping an eye on this thread for any other wisdom people want to share, and maybe in time, I'll come back to post some updates ;-)

[sirineou]

13 minutes ago, nopsled said:

I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who responded to this thread.  Some replies were pretty harsh, but that does not mean I don't pay them heed.  There was some very useful information too.  I did kind of put it out there as if I had not given any of it any though at all.  Not quite true, but I was not thinking with absolute clarity I admit.  Love clouds perception somewhat, which is why I asked the question, knowing I would be slapped back down to earth :-)  I'm pretty, sure in the near future, I will be going with plan B.  Rent out my flat and move in with her.  We will see how our joint incomes, and our relationship lasts.  Hopefully we can build something bigger and better together.

 

I will be keeping an eye on this thread for any other wisdom people want to share, and maybe in time, I'll come back to post some updates ;-)

 You sound very level headed and reasonable , I am sure you will do fine

Good Luck

[JOC]

IT CAN BE DONE.....!!

Forget building a house.....Nice rentals can be found around HH for 12-15000/month for long contracts.

You don,t need a car....we have one, but 90% of our transportation is by 50.000 baht scooters..simply the easiest way to get around in HH.

Invest your money in a local infrastructure fund: JASIF (Google it).....Your 7.000.000 baht will buy you around 570.000 units (trading at 12.20 today), Dividends is around 0.92 baht yearly, paid quarterly =131.100 every 3 months (Tax free for another 7 years). Like anything involving the stock market there is (IMO small) risk involved....But not as risky ass buying real estate in another persons name....

Test the waters and if it for some reason should not work out, you will still have your original capital intact. Unlike a house the JASIF units are traded every day and you will have your money within 3 days.

I was in your situation 15 years ago, with a little more money..but not much more....Thankfully I didn't ask the "experts" on ThaiVisa, but  just did it....No regrets and never looked back...

PS. The "experts" called me an idiot or worse, when I recommended JASIF at 8.80......

[nopsled]

12 minutes ago, JOC said:

IT CAN BE DONE.....!!

Forget building a house.....Nice rentals can be found around HH for 12-15000/month for long contracts.

You don,t need a car....we have one, but 90% of our transportation is by 50.000 baht scooters..simply the easiest way to get around in HH.

Invest your money in a local infrastructure fund: JASIF (Google it).....Your 7.000.000 baht will buy you around 570.000 units (trading at 12.20 today), Dividends is around 0.92 baht yearly, paid quarterly =131.100 every 3 months (Tax free for another 7 years). Like anything involving the stock market there is (IMO small) risk involved....But not as risky ass buying real estate in another persons name....

Test the waters and if it for some reason should not work out, you will still have your original capital intact. Unlike a house the JASIF units are traded every day and you will have your money within 3 days.

I was in your situation 15 years ago, with a little more money..but not much more....Thankfully I didn't ask the "experts" on ThaiVisa, but  just did it....No regrets and never looked back...

PS. The "experts" called me an idiot or worse, when I recommended JASIF at 8.80......

Thank you.  I will definitely look at this. Jasmine Broadband Internet Infrastructure Fund, yes?

Edited February 1, 2018 by nopsled

[JAZZDOG]

1 hour ago, JOC said:

IT CAN BE DONE.....!!

Forget building a house.....Nice rentals can be found around HH for 12-15000/month for long contracts.

You don,t need a car....we have one, but 90% of our transportation is by 50.000 baht scooters..simply the easiest way to get around in HH.

Invest your money in a local infrastructure fund: JASIF (Google it).....Your 7.000.000 baht will buy you around 570.000 units (trading at 12.20 today), Dividends is around 0.92 baht yearly, paid quarterly =131.100 every 3 months (Tax free for another 7 years). Like anything involving the stock market there is (IMO small) risk involved....But not as risky ass buying real estate in another persons name....

Test the waters and if it for some reason should not work out, you will still have your original capital intact. Unlike a house the JASIF units are traded every day and you will have your money within 3 days.

I was in your situation 15 years ago, with a little more money..but not much more....Thankfully I didn't ask the "experts" on ThaiVisa, but  just did it....No regrets and never looked back...

PS. The "experts" called me an idiot or worse, when I recommended JASIF at 8.80......

Then that's 7.5% right? And totally liquid, that is sweet

[JOC]

3 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

Then that's 7.5% right? And totally liquid, that is sweet

Yes just over 7.5%....Even better for me...bought at the IPO and have since added on price-drops.

For a retail investor you don't get a much better deal...!!

Just last week (26/1-18) Morgan Stanley bought 380.000.000 units in a deal worth 4.4 billion baht (Average price 11.60)

[YorkshireTyke]

18 hours ago, JOC said:

Yes just over 7.5%....Even better for me...bought at the IPO and have since added on price-drops.

For a retail investor you don't get a much better deal...!!

Just last week (26/1-18) Morgan Stanley bought 380.000.000 units in a deal worth 4.4 billion baht (Average price 11.60)

How does someone like myself with no knowledge of the stock market invest in this fund please ?

Edited February 2, 2018 by YorkshireTyke
Typo

[JOC]

3 hours ago, YorkshireTyke said:

How does someone like myself with no knowledge of the stock market invest in this fund please ?

You need to open a trading account. If you use one of the major banks here, they will have their own brokerage, who will be able to help you with the paperwork.....plenty of it....!! I opened my trading account with Kasikorn Securities more than 10 years ago and then you had to invest minimum 1 million baht as a foreigner to get approved. It might differ from bank to bank....With a trading account in place it is just to buy/sell on line. Every 3 months the dividends will go into your savings account......http://www.settrade.com/C04_01_stock_quote_p1.jsp?txtSymbol=JASIF&ssoPageId=9&selectPage=

[YorkshireTyke]

Thankyou JOC. I have accounts with Kasikorn and Krungsri so I will ask the question.

[Ahab]

100,000 baht per month living expenses? We live quite comfortably on less than 40,000 baht per month in rural Thailand.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Ahab
grammar

[khunPer]

9 hours ago, YorkshireTyke said:

Thankyou JOC. I have accounts with Kasikorn and Krungsri so I will ask the question.

Many banks offers online SET trading for foreigners – you'll need to buy "NVR" (No Voting Rights"), which you can set default in the online platform – in SCB you'll need only 30,000 baht to open online trading, other banks probably similar...

[JOC]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

Many banks offers online SET trading for foreigners – you'll need to buy "NVR" (No Voting Rights"), which you can set default in the online platform – in SCB you'll need only 30,000 baht to open online trading, other banks probably similar...

It is called NVDR (Non-Voting Depository Receipt)......

And many funds don't issue NVDR's....In the case of JASIF you will have to buy local shares and convert them into F (foreign) shares to get the dividend. It is just a formality...signing a piece of paper with your broker. And when you want to sell, you will have to convert back to local shares again. JASIF-F is listed, but there are hardly any trade in them....

[rickudon]

Ok, like the rest, i have to say you do not have enough. I came to Thailand 8 years ago expecting to live on 30,000 baht a month (i.e. an amount less than my pension at that time). I also had about 50,000 GBP in savings.

 

Reality. I have never spent less than 40,000 baht per month. I had to buy a car. My wife had a daughter (the anchor). She had a house (old) with a mortgage, house renovations and repairs over those 8 years cost about 500,000 baht, but at least the mortgage was small (3,000 baht a month) so OK over that period. Then we had Brexit and lost 20% of my income (in baht).By last year the savings were nearly gone. My Mum died, but at 94 the nursing home had taken most of my inheritance, so only topped up my savings again. Thankfully i now have state pension and sometimes have money left!

 

We live life watching every baht we spend. i do not smoke, rarely drink, and only holiday i have is to see family in UK once a year. I do not have health insurance. I would not recommend that anyone comes to retire in Thailand  without an income of AT LEAST 40,000 baht a month, unless you are one of those freaks who think living in a fan cooled room and eating street food is living!

 

Could i live on less? Yes. But it would mean giving up to many things i like. and would make life less enjoyable.

 

 

 

 

[moana]

On 2/1/2018 at 1:14 PM, JOC said:

Invest your money in a local infrastructure fund: JASIF

Does anyone happen to know if it's possible to use stock holdings as proof of funds for visa purposes (the ฿400K/800K required by Non-O/A)?

[JOC]

45 minutes ago, moana said:

Does anyone happen to know if it's possible to use stock holdings as proof of funds for visa purposes (the ฿400K/800K required by Non-O/A)?

The short answer is no.

In theory you could move your money to a trading account after the extension and get at least 2 quarterly dividends before moving the money back to the savings account.....IMO too risky, since the unit prices fluctuate and you might end up with nothing...

[moana]

24 minutes ago, JOC said:

In theory you could move your money to a trading account after the extension and get at least 2 quarterly dividends before moving the money back to the savings account

Yes, not worth it if it must be moved about.

I wanted to be able to show proof that I own stocks in value amounting to at least the required sum. Not sure why immigration disallows it, since publicly traded stocks are easy to liquidate. Immigration obviously doesn't care about fluctuations in value, because they do allow presenting proof of funds stored in other currencies (which obviously fluctuate quite a bit).

I'll inquire on my next immigration visit.

[khunPer]

6 hours ago, moana said:

Does anyone happen to know if it's possible to use stock holdings as proof of funds for visa purposes (the ฿400K/800K required by Non-O/A)?

No, you cannot, at least at the Immigration that I use; only a Thai bank deposit, including fixed deposits (if the money can be withdrawn at any time).

 

Some years back I could use a so-called Fund Book with a mutual fund in fairly safe bonds, but as that was "investment with a risk", the Immigration stopped accepting Fund Books; and stocks are higher risk, than fairly safe bonds.

[JOC]

10 hours ago, moana said:

Yes, not worth it if it must be moved about.

I wanted to be able to show proof that I own stocks in value amounting to at least the required sum. Not sure why immigration disallows it, since publicly traded stocks are easy to liquidate. Immigration obviously doesn't care about fluctuations in value, because they do allow presenting proof of funds stored in other currencies (which obviously fluctuate quite a bit).

I'll inquire on my next immigration visit.

There are more than 1000 listed stocks on SET.....Do you really expect the immigration officer on any given day being able to trace the prices of your stocks 3 months back, to make sure that the value has not dropped below the magic 800k..?

(With average Thai math skills it would probably take a week)

Why ask questions here, if you don't believe the replies...?

[moana]

16 hours ago, JOC said:

Why ask questions here, if you don't believe the replies...?

I didn't say I don't believe you, I absolutely believe that this was your experience, and @khunPer as well. I just don't see a reason not to ask, since I'm already there. We all know rules change based on location, timing, and the specific officer. Won't hurt to get another data point.

 

BTW, when presented with a foreign currency account, do they actually bother to find the lowest exchange rate in the last 3 months to make sure it never went below the required sum?

[JOC]

13 hours ago, moana said:

I didn't say I don't believe you, I absolutely believe that this was your experience, and @khunPer as well. I just don't see a reason not to ask, since I'm already there. We all know rules change based on location, timing, and the specific officer. Won't hurt to get another data point.

 

BTW, when presented with a foreign currency account, do they actually bother to find the lowest exchange rate in the last 3 months to make sure it never went below the required sum?

For a foreign deposit account the bank will issue a letter for immigration converting the foreign currency into Thai Baht....You just need to make sure to have extra in the account to allow for currency fluctuation...

[MaeJoMTB]

On 2/4/2018 at 5:48 PM, rickudon said:

Ok, like the rest, i have to say you do not have enough. I came to Thailand 8 years ago expecting to live on 30,000 baht a month (i.e. an amount less than my pension at that time). I also had about 50,000 GBP in savings.

 

Reality. I have never spent less than 40,000 baht per month. I had to buy a car. My wife had a daughter (the anchor). She had a house (old) with a mortgage, house renovations and repairs over those 8 years cost about 500,000 baht, but at least the mortgage was small (3,000 baht a month) so OK over that period. Then we had Brexit and lost 20% of my income (in baht).By last year the savings were nearly gone. My Mum died, but at 94 the nursing home had taken most of my inheritance, so only topped up my savings again. Thankfully i now have state pension and sometimes have money left!

 

We live life watching every baht we spend. i do not smoke, rarely drink, and only holiday i have is to see family in UK once a year. I do not have health insurance. I would not recommend that anyone comes to retire in Thailand  without an income of AT LEAST 40,000 baht a month, unless you are one of those freaks who think living in a fan cooled room and eating street food is living!

 

Could i live on less? Yes. But it would mean giving up to many things i like. and would make life less enjoyable.

 

20,000Bht is enough for a retired single man living a life way beyond anything he could imagine in any of the white English speaking homelands. More if you want a younger local wife and children.

 

Rick has chosen the wife/house/car/kids path which will cost 40-50K/month (as have I), but I know plenty of happy retired single men choosing the condo/beer/hooker life on 20K/month. How much you need entirely depends on your chosen lifestyle.

Edited February 15, 2018 by MaeJoMTB