Extension of stay based on retirement

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, chipkimberimd said:

So if you use the combination method of income and savings to reach the magic 800,000 THB, is that the worse of two options combined?

 

Would you need the updated bank book and an Income Affidavit (I'm American) from the embassy?

Yes, you need the immigration letter from the bank AND the embassy income letter. The bank document needs to be very fresh but the embassy letter can be as old as six months. 

[glegolo]

9 hours ago, inThailand said:

If you don't have a measly 800K what are you doing here?

A man can not be called stupid, but his opinions can!! So having a fair and good pension going for the rest of your life, that can not qualify you to stay here?

 

glegolo

[chipkimberimd]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, you need the immigration letter from the bank AND the embassy income letter. The bank document needs to be very fresh but the embassy letter can be as old as six months. 

I have read conflicting articles about the money needing to be "seasoned " using the money in the bank plus income method.

 

Is it true that no "seasoning" is needed using this method?

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by chipkimberimd

[jacko45k]

I believe the 800,000 in the bank is the easiest to actually verify. No need to take a trip to your embassy and verify any pension as the banks spit out a 100 baht letter quickly and an update of a pass book and a few copies covers it. Mostly people decide one or the other based on reasons like not having the 800k, not wanting to leave it tied up in Thailand, or even a distrust of the banks. Or their local immigration office is quite happy with a simply signed affidavit letter.

[chicowoodduck]

13 hours ago, robertson468 said:

But getting no interest on 800K in Thai Bank is also a loss of income methinks!

Agree, and that is why I just use the Embassy outreach for my income letter, done and dusted every single time....easy peasy....at least for me.....lol...??

[inThailand]

9 hours ago, Nuddy said:

But you do get interest on the deposit!

Yes and probably more than you get on your accounts back home.

[CMBob]

9 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

Thanks for all good advices I allow me a few more questions What kind of account do Immigration accept and do we have to pay tax on the eventually interest annually? I have had an account with Bangkok Bank for some years which is my money "in out" account and nothing more because I have always seen the small life savings I have as safer back home. But Thb 800K I could always have as savings here as situation are now but would like a separate account from my "in out" account"!

 

Thanks

Felt

 

 

Immigration will only accept any account with which you can immediately gain access to your funds.  If it's a term account (where, currently you can get around 1.4% -1.7% provided you keep the account to maturity) but you're allowed (with loss of interest) to withdraw the fund whenever you want to, that's fine.  If it's a true certificate of deposit account like we have in the west (where your money is locked up for a given time period), then that will not qualify.  If you're unsure, just ask the bank person if the account will qualify for the annual Immigration letter.  

 

Like you're thinking, I keep a separate "visa" account and don't touch the funds....and use another "operating" account for expenses.

 

As for your tax question, I can only speak for the US.  Yes, we are required to report interest earned on our annual US tax return (presuming the person is required to file a return).  And Thai banks in compliance with the Thai law will withhold 15% of interest earned on some of those larger accounts and transmit those funds to the Thai Treasury/Revenue Department.  One can annually apply (essentially filing a Thai income tax return - there have been other threads on how to do that) to receive back the 15% withheld.   

[HampiK]

1 hour ago, inThailand said:

Yes and probably more than you get on your accounts back home.

The best possible in Switzerland at the moment is 1% (this is a very rare account valid for 6 months). In Thailand it's still very easy to find an deposit with 1.3 or more percentage.

Almost every of my friends back home they have an interest rate of less than 0.5%. Only of this it already make sense to put the money on an deposit account here in Thailand.

 

Another important point in my view is: You need the money anyway in the new few months/year. So why not to decide to import the money when there is a good rate instead of importing the money every month, when you can't decide about the exchange rate?

[ubonjoe]

13 hours ago, Tofer said:

I would have used the £800k bank deposit option but hadn't realised the  money had to be in the account for 3 months, since my first extension where the requirement was only 2 months. Why the change in period is a mystery to me! Unfortunately I missed the date by a week, so chose to err on the safe side and get the income letter instead of risking being sent off to KL again.

It is 60 days for the first extension so that a person can open a bank account during first 30 days of a 90 day entry from a non-o visa and still be able to apply for the extension before the 90 days end.

For the 2nd extension and onward it 3 months since you have plenty of time to have the 800k baht in the bank.

[murraynz]

16 hours ago, robertson468 said:

But getting no interest on 800K in Thai Bank is also a loss of income methinks!

sure, it is loss of income, but i get 1.25% from bkk bank -i leave for 6mths,then renew.the term can be broken at any time,but interest is lost.

i like having the deposit readily available, to cover emergency or accident/ilness.

insurance is VERY  expensive for over 65s.

or, for quick deposit on condo purchase, if i see an "investment bargain"...

[Sir Swagman]

11 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

Thanks for all good advices I allow me a few more questions What kind of account do Immigration accept and do we have to pay tax on the eventually interest annually? I have had an account with Bangkok Bank for some years which is my money "in out" account and nothing more because I have always seen the small life savings I have as safer back home. But Thb 800K I could always have as savings here as situation are now but would like a separate account from my "in out" account"!

 

Thanks

Felt

 

 

Acceptable accounts are term deposit or savings accounts. Investment or any type of accounts will not be. Interest on the 800,000 doesn't create a tax angle that I am aware of, at least not if it the only income. The bank letter costs 100 baht, to confirm your deposit meets the criterion. I have had some try to get 200baht, but when questioned, it drops to 100baht (TIT). The letter has to be no more than 7 days prior to presenting documents (I have had bank staff try to tell me 2 days) and, this is important.....it must match the total showing in the bank book, which also needs update (best on the day really). In other words make no deposits or withdrawals after obtaining the bank letter. A combination of income and deposited money is also accepted by immigration (at least at offices I have been to, but rules are 'flexible' depending on the person behind the desk at times), but you would need to ask immigration what that ratio might be. Again, I wouldn't accept the first answer on that I was given, and ask a few people. Better still, get that in writing (good luck with that!) and always, always, get the name of who ever attends to you and note information they provide, on paper.  

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, Sir Swagman said:

Interest on the 800,000 doesn't create a tax angle that I am aware of, at least not if it the only income.

Savings accounts accrue 0.5% Interest which is not taxed.

Fixed term deposit accounts accrue higher rates of interest dependent on the fixed term, typically 3, 6, 12, 24, or 36 months, and the interest is automatically taxed at 15%.

The interest on these accounts is treated as income earned within Thailand, but as this income falls below the personal tax allowance permissible before tax should be paid, it can be reclaim each year between Jan - Mar from the previous year.

[Sir Swagman]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Savings accounts accrue 0.5% Interest which is not taxed.

Fixed term deposit accounts accrue higher rates of interest dependent on the fixed term, typically 3, 6, 12, 24, or 36 months, and the interest is automatically taxed at 15%.

The interest on these accounts is treated as income earned within Thailand, but as this income falls below the personal tax allowance permissible before tax should be paid, it can be reclaim each year between Jan - Mar from the previous year.

Thanks for that info

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Savings accounts accrue 0.5% Interest which is not taxed.

 

I don't recall the number but it is the amount of interest earned that triggers the 15% deduction. With only 800k baht in the bank it would not reach that amount but if it was millions the 15% would certainly be deducted.

[mahjongguy]

Thai banks will apply withholding to the regular savings accounts of any customer who has reached a total of 20,000 baht in interest. Rich Thais avoid this by spreading their millions across different banks. 

 

Just a reminder - money withheld is not tax, it's an involuntary contribution towards possible taxation. If your taxable income falls below the start point of the tax tables, the withheld amounts will be returned. In fact, if you file for a refund before April 1, you can request repayment for 2017, 2016, and 2015.    

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't recall the number but it is the amount of interest earned that triggers the 15% deduction. With only 800k baht in the bank it would not reach that amount but if it was millions the 15% would certainly be deducted.

There may be some truth in that statement if it was a Savings account where the interest exceed the annual personal tax allowance.

 

Fixed accounts automatically tax any interest at 15% regardless of the amount.

If the interest paid is under the personal annual tax allowance the 15% tax can be reclaimed.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Tanoshi

[jerry921]

On 2/22/2018 at 6:48 PM, Felt 35 said:

What is easiest and less paperwork

I've not done either, but as a US person, it certainly seems to me like the 800k option creates a lot of extra paperwork headaches.

 

1) Assuming I put the money in a fixed term deposit account, I'd have to do extra work to get the 15% of the interest returned that was withheld. The threads about that say it's not a huge hassle, but it's still paperwork.

 

2) And as US person, I'd have to do the FINRA filing, which I've never done before. That's online, and supposedly very easy, too, but it's still (virtual) paperwork that you have to remember to do.

 

3) The Thai interest is US taxable income (they make the laws, they don't have to be reasonable), so you have to pay tax on the interest even after you get back the 15% from Thailand. I do my own taxes (using a program), so I'd have to somehow come up with the equivalent info that would be on a US 1099-INT form.

 

4) I also know there's a question in the tax program's interview about whether you "have signature authority over a foreign account with more than $10,000 in it". The answer to that question would be yes, and I don't know what kind of a rabbit hole you end up down as a result of that. It all sounds like a lot of small hassles that add up.

 

5) And there's the very small bit of work involved in getting the letter from the bank at the time of the application. Compared to #1-4, this part sounds easiest of the bunch.

 

Alternatively, if I keep the 800k baht in dollars in the US, I can put it in a 1 year US treasury bill and earn 2% on it. If I use 800kB = US$25,000, and compare 2% to 1.8% that people here are saying I could get on the fixed term deposit, the difference is US$50, and that just about pays for the embassy letter. And it seems like a whole lot less hassle, overall. I suppose the 1 yr T-bill isn't quite a fair comparison, because there's no way to get that money back in an emergency like there would be with a fixed term account, but even if you assume that the interest part of the equation is a wash, it almost seems like the cost of the embassy letter is worth the hassles saved to me.

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, chipkimberimd said:

I have read conflicting articles about the money needing to be "seasoned " using the money in the bank plus income method.

 

Is it true that no "seasoning" is needed using this method?

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

Good question.

Seasoning is generally being enforced on combination applications.

That is probably contrary to how the rules are written, but don't focus on that, focus on what you need to do.

Exceptions might be made if the bank account is very small compared to the income.

Some people might need to do "last minute" bank account imports because of exchange rate fluctuations making their income worth less towards to 800K.

[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

I've not done either, but as a US person, it certainly seems to me like the 800k option creates a lot of extra paperwork headaches.

 

1) Assuming I put the money in a fixed term deposit account, I'd have to do extra work to get the 15% of the interest returned that was withheld. The threads about that say it's not a huge hassle, but it's still paperwork.

 

2) And as US person, I'd have to do the FINRA filing, which I've never done before. That's online, and supposedly very easy, too, but it's still (virtual) paperwork that you have to remember to do.

 

3) The Thai interest is US taxable income (they make the laws, they don't have to be reasonable), so you have to pay tax on the interest even after you get back the 15% from Thailand. I do my own taxes (using a program), so I'd have to somehow come up with the equivalent info that would be on a US 1099-INT form.

 

4) I also know there's a question in the tax program's interview about whether you "have signature authority over a foreign account with more than $10,000 in it". The answer to that question would be yes, and I don't know what kind of a rabbit hole you end up down as a result of that. It all sounds like a lot of small hassles that add up.

So much for coming from the Land of the Free   

[ubonjoe]

21 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

I've not done either, but as a US person, it certainly seems to me like the 800k option creates a lot of extra paperwork headaches.

All of those reasons are some of the reasons why I use the income option.

Any savings goes in an account in my wife's name since she is not liable for US taxes and it can be in an account that earns a higher rate of return.

[OJAS]

18 hours ago, wgdanson said:

You must pay that whichever method you use. But if 52 + 45 = 97 quid per year is a problem, you shouldn't be living here. 

Where on earth did you get the idea that I was unhappy about paying 52 quid for an Embassy letter from?

 

Contrary to the rash assumption which you have chosen to make in this particular instance, let me assure you that I have absolutely no problem with paying 52 quid for the Embassy letter plus nearly 45 quid for the Immigration stamp!

 

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by OJAS

[Phuket Man]

Personally I would rather pay 4 quid for the bank letter than 52 quid for the rip off Embassy letter.

[CMBob]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't recall the number but it is the amount of interest earned that triggers the 15% deduction. With only 800k baht in the bank it would not reach that amount but if it was millions the 15% would certainly be deducted.

I kept 825k in my separate account last year (2017) and earned a total of 16,504.52 baht interest.....and the 15% tax withholding of 2,475.68 baht did take place.  If there is an amount which triggers the withholding, I don't know but obviously it's less than the 20,000 baht mentioned by others.  Regardless, as has mentioned, one can get the withheld tax back (so long as one doesn't owe the Thai government for other Thai income).  I believe that no expat has to pay income tax here if they make less than 150,000 baht per year in Thai earnings.

[mahjongguy]

" If there is an amount which triggers the withholding, I don't know but obviously it's less than the 20,000 baht mentioned by others.  "

 

Tax is always withheld from fixed savings accounts, regardless of the amount of interest paid. Tax is not withheld from regular savings accounts unless and until the amount of interest paid to that individual by that institution in that calendar year exceeds 20,000 baht.

[mahjongguy]

"1) Assuming I put the money in a fixed term deposit account, I'd have to do extra work to get the 15% of the interest returned that was withheld. The threads about that say it's not a huge hassle, but it's still paperwork."

 

It's never fun to go to a government office but for a tiny late fee you can just go once every three years.

 

"2) And as US person, I'd have to do the FINRA filing, which I've never done before. That's online, and supposedly very easy, too, but it's still (virtual) paperwork that you have to remember to do."

 

 

Filling out Form 114 online isn't fun but it doesn't take long. The bigger hassle, if you have more than just the single fixed account, is keeping track of the maximum balance during the year for each account. 

 

"3) The Thai interest is US taxable income (they make the laws, they don't have to be reasonable), so you have to pay tax on the interest even after you get back the 15% from Thailand. I do my own taxes (using a program), so I'd have to somehow come up with the equivalent info that would be on a US 1099-INT form."

 

Using TurboTax, I typed in "Bangkok Bank" and "$852.41". Not much of a chore to enter nor to determine the amount, mainly because the interest from regular accounts are only paid twice a year, in June and December, making it easy to track.  

 

"4) I also know there's a question in the tax program's interview about whether you "have signature authority over a foreign account with more than $10,000 in it". The answer to that question would be yes, and I don't know what kind of a rabbit hole you end up down as a result of that. It all sounds like a lot of small hassles that add up."

 

You get asked twice, once in regard to the need to file an FBAR Form 114 online (now required by April rather than June) and once in regard to having bank accounts and other interests (investments, partnerships) that add up to $50,000 or more. TurboTax might need to prepare a Form 8938 to be submitted along with your 1040 and other forms. However, in my case, as a full-time resident here, the bar is raised to $200,000, which lets me off. 

 

So, that's my take on the overall hassles of the 800,000 baht method. A mixed review, but what tips the balance for me is the fact that I sleep better at night knowing that I've got money in Thailand. Living here for thirteen years has convinced me that having a stash at a nearby bank is a worthwhile comfort.

 

[chipkimberimd]

I have what is probably a stupid question.

 

I gather from reading here you do your 90 days reporting at your "local office" which makes sense to me.

 

What about the yearly extension of stay based on retirement? Does that need to also be done in the office closest to where you live?

 

Or say if I lived in Bueng Kan, could I do the extension of stay based on retirement in Bangkok then return to my home in Bueng Kan?

 

The reason I ask is having read about some having issues in some of the more "remote" offices.

 

 

[Phuket Man]

You apply at the office that covers the area in which you live.

[jerry921]

9 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

 

 

You get asked twice, once in regard to the need to file an FBAR Form 114 online (now required by April rather than June) and once in regard to having bank accounts and other interests (investments, partnerships) that add up to $50,000 or more. TurboTax might need to prepare a Form 8938 to be submitted along with your 1040 and other forms. However, in my case, as a full-time resident here, the bar is raised to $200,000, which lets me off. 

 

Great to hear from someone who's navigated the US special rules. Dunno if the OP is from US, but it's been a major concern of mine.

 

So besides the US$10k threshold for FBAR filing, there's a US$50k threshold for form 8938? Sounds like maybe not as deep a rabbit hole as I'd feared since 800k baht would be under US$50k.

 

I also didn't list as part of the paperwork burden that someone with significant assets in Thailand should probably figure out some kind of a will to cover those assets, too. Of course if you own a place to stay you probably already have one, but if you're renting, the 800k account might be the only significant asset you have in country.

[JAS21]

On 23/02/2018 at 4:54 PM, robertson468 said:

But getting no interest on 800K in Thai Bank is also a loss of income methinks!

I keep more than that in my CIMB Speed Saver account ...interest rate seems to hover around 1.5% ...very poor but...

[mahjongguy]

" I also didn't list as part of the paperwork burden that someone with significant assets in Thailand should probably figure out some kind of a will to cover those assets, too. Of course if you own a place to stay you probably already have one, but if you're renting, the 800k account might be the only significant asset you have in country. "

 

As you say, having a Thai will is on-topic because 800k is too much money not to care about where it ends up. But even if you go the stated income route and only have a motorbike and a TV and a few baht under your mattress, would you want that to go to the government for lack of a will? It's very simple to arrange and there should always be someone you'd like to see designated as beneficiary. It's especially important because Thai banking laws don't allow specified beneficiaries.