Armed deputy at Florida high school resigns after failing to engage shooter

[mtls2005]

8 minutes ago, impulse said:

LEO training doesn't prepare anyone to charge at a shooter. 

 

Not to mention that he has been a policeman since 1985, he might be in his mid to late 50's?

 

I guess he's 54 years old.

 

One assumes these school resource officer positions are given to older members of the police/sheriff's department as a sort of informal policy.

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

https://www.lawenforcementedu.net/deputy-sheriff/become-deputy-sheriff/

 

close combat training +++

  

That refers to hand to hand close combat.  Not charging a semi-automatic weapon- especially if you don't know how many there are.

 

[BobBKK]

Just now, impulse said:

  

That refers to hand to hand close combat.  Not charging a semi-automatic weapon- especially if you don't know how many there are.

 

 

Well we don't know that. What we do know is that he didn't carry out SOP's and was suspended then, knowing what was coming, resigned. No one talks of 'charging' anything he hid outside while the kids died.

[F4UCorsair]

Until the procedures that govern his duties are published, everybody's guessing. I'd guess he acted correctly, in an uncertain situation, call for backup.

That he resigned means nothing until facts are known. Then, and only then, can the Monday morning quarterbacks run off at the mouth.....IF they were right.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[impulse]

Just now, BobBKK said:

Well we don't know that. What we do know is that he didn't carry out SOP's and was suspended then, knowing what was coming, resigned. No one talks of 'charging' anything he hid outside while the kids died.

 

What else would you call entering a building ALONE when there are an unknown number of gunmen, and all you know is that they're better armed than you are and they're willing to kill?  

 

 

[BobBKK]

19 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

Until the procedures that govern his duties are published, everybody's guessing. I'd guess he acted correctly, in an uncertain situation, call for backup.

That he resigned means nothing until facts are known. Then, and only then, can the Monday morning quarterbacks run off at the mouth.....IF they were right.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

No one gets suspended then resigns if they have followed SOP and acted correctly and you know it. 

[BobBKK]

17 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

What else would you call entering a building ALONE when there are an unknown number of gunmen, and all you know is that they're better armed than you are and they're willing to kill?  

 

 

 

Yes you are right better to ignore you're the school policeman, armed and trained just for this moment and wait until the shooting stops. Then, when it's all over, and you are suspended (for doing the right thing), you can resign and throw your career away for no reason at all.

[Just Weird]

5 hours ago, colinneil said:

   Come  on folks, give the poor man a break.

Yes he was paid to protect the children, he failed in his duty, something he will have to live with.

I ask everyone of you condemning the man, what would you have done?

 

Easy to criticize after the event , the poor man froze, could happen to anyone.

The rest of us are not police officers trained to deal with that situation so what anyone else would have done in that situation is academic!  "Poor man", my arse.

[impulse]

52 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

No one gets suspended then resigns if they have followed SOP and acted correctly and you know it. 

 

We don't have a clue why he resigned.  It may have been a backroom deal to save his pension (and the Sheriff's job).  It may be because he was so traumatized by what happened.  It may be because his wife gave him an ultimatum when she realized that he could have been killed.  It may have been the trigger for him to start that landscaping business he's been dreaming about for the last 10 years.

 

[impulse]

41 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

The rest of us are not police officers trained to deal with that situation so what anyone else would have done in that situation is academic!  "Poor man", my arse.

 

Outside of the military, there is no training that overcomes the absolute horror and fear of proceeding alone toward a guy shooting at you.

 

[Srikcir]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

Waiting for backup is SOP.  

It is not!

"Active shooter policies recommend that officers rush to the sound of gunfire, even though statistics show that doing so is dangerous." March 2014

http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the police response to active shooter incidents 2014.pdf

 

[Jingthing]

A handgun vs. an assault weapon. Suicide mission. Is there any report whether he could tell it was an assault weapon by the noise? There is now a "presidential" call to arm many teachers, presumably with handguns. Since the school shooters are likely to have assault weapons, maybe give the teachers the same, and have them "open carry" during classes. 

[Lokie]

In the UK we call it having some 'Bottle' seems this officer either lost his or never had it in the first place. Now the Sports coach on the other hand had BOTTLE and put himself in arms way to defend students, I rather think this may have had a part in the shame this officer is feeling right now.

 

Dont arm teachers, stop selling ARs and other weapons of war to kids for christ sake, its not Rocket science really is it???

[impulse]

17 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

It is not!

"Active shooter policies recommend that officers rush to the sound of gunfire, even though statistics show that doing so is dangerous." March 2014

http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the police response to active shooter incidents 2014.pdf

 

 
I especially like this part from your linked report. 

 

“In all of the solo entries we identified where the scene was still hot, one-third of the police officers who made that solo entry were shot.” —Prof. J. Pete Blair

 

Which, BTW is a report, not a directive.  To be considered when a department develops SOP's. 

 

 

[mtls2005]

Ready, Fire, Aim: The Science Behind Police Shooting Bystanders

 

On Saturday night in New York City’s Times Square, police opened fire on a man who was walking erratically into oncoming traffic and, when approached by law enforcement, reached into his pocket as if he were grabbing a weapon. The officers fired three shots. One hit a 54-year-old woman in the knee and another grazed a 35-year-old woman’s buttocks. None hit the suspect, whom police subsequently subdued with a taser.

 

According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time.

 

The data show what any police officer who has ever been involved in a shooting can tell you–firing accurately in a stressful situation is extremely hard. 

 

http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

[Basil B]

53 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A handgun vs. an assault weapon. Suicide mission. Is there any report whether he could tell it was an assault weapon by the noise? There is now a "presidential" call to arm many teachers, presumably with handguns. Since the school shooters are likely to have assault weapons, maybe give the teachers the same, and have them "open carry" during classes. 

 

"A handgun vs. an assault weapon = Suicide mission."

 

Just that, probably more use outside alive assessing the situation and radioing information to his control room so they would have a clearer picture of the situation.

 

Alright some jerk in an office saying he should have gone in is kind of like some general in the first would war shouting "send more over the top" from the other end of a field telephone... 

[Mansell]

Sorry I disagree with all you armchair quarterbacks on this cop. You can make all the excuses in the world for him, and you can blame the sheriff and anybody else.....But it was his job and he didn't do his job........you can second guess his reasons for not at least taking a look inside, but the reality is he acted like a coward when he could have saved lives. If he had just fired some shots in the air it might have changed everything.......many times these shooters are cowards and give up or shoot themselves at the first sign of resistance, especially somebody with a gun. Supposedly when the police arrived he was outside hiding behind a concrete pillar. What did the police do? Do there job and go inside and find the shooter or shooters.....they didn't know he had left the building, they did their jobs. It is a soldiers job to fight, and if he/she decided today I don't feel up to it..........end of story. If it is your job to serve and protect, do the damn job. A hero is a person who just reacts and does what is needed in that moment. Some live and some die......but they are still a hero. This cop could have saved multiple lives......but he did nothing.....now live with that knowledge for the rest of your days. Very sad.

[RKASA]

SOP in active shooter is to go in and take on the shooter or shooters does not matter - if the shooter is confronted by you they stop shooting others.  He was trained that way but didn't do it.  See the ABC network report and hear his boss tell you himself - as he said it made him sick to see the video and this guy do nothing for over 4 minutes - the most important 4 minutes of all. 

Two months ago this same officer  was told that this kid (whom he knows from prior contacts with him) would or likely would become a school shooter,  alarm bells everywhere (especially after being kicked out of his home by the women that is wanting to take all the money his mother left him when she died) she even took the cash he had on hand when she booted he to the street back in November.  He was later described as making treats and felt helpless and out of control, but like so many that knew that - he and others did nothing.  Seems he was too worthless to others to be bothered with.

After viewing the video the officer was placed on leave, but because he had the time in he simply retired.  An investigation as to why a 195cm 110kg uniformed, arm and trained officer did not do his job is on going. 

The officer does have more advantage then some may know - in that the shooter a confused nitwit for one thing and does not stand a chance if confronted by a trained officer (well - a willing one anyway).  If it was a terror attack with trained killers it would have been is last detail, but that is what you get paid 102,000 dollars (3.2million baht) a year for.

Young men in uniform do as much everyday for a hell of a lot less then that.

[Jingthing]

I agree he was paid to go in and in this case it would probably have been the end of him. He'll have to live with that.

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[Media1]

13 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Whoever it was will live with that shame for the rest of his life. To have been there, with a gun and training, and then done NOTHING reeks of only one thing, and it's not courage. 

a imposter

[Nasrullah]

 

[Jonmarleesco]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

 

But it may be a much longer life...  90 seconds into the attack, he had no clue how many gunmen were involved, or how heavily they were armed.  Going after a guy (or guys) with AR15s, armed only with a sidearm?  Waiting for backup is SOP.  

 

Maybe not admirable, but we don't pay them enough to get shot.

I'm not sure we pay them anything. But the US state obviously does, and to do their job to the best of their ability. 

[Just Weird]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Outside of the military, there is no training that overcomes the absolute horror and fear of proceeding alone toward a guy shooting at you.

 

Really, is that what you think, so what?  No one was shooting at him. 

 

Your logic dictates, then, that there was no reason for him to be there.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Just Weird

[EVENKEEL]

4 hours ago, Nasrullah said:

 

That's an old one but a favorite at the yearly small arm qualification course I need for my job.

 

Try explaining to the parents of dead students the policeman did the right thing by not engaging the shooter. This was not a dark hallway but a well lit area. No, the cop did the wrong thing of which he'll spend the rest of his life regretting.

[Srikcir]

6 hours ago, Jonmarleesco said:

I'm not sure we pay them anything. But the US state obviously does, and to do their job to the best of their ability. 

When Coral Springs police officers arrived at the school shooting, they saw not just the officer assigned to the school but three more Broward police officers with pistols drawn but taking cover behind their cars as a gunman was inside killing 17 students and staff.

http://deadline.com/2018/02/four-broward-officers-stayed-outside-florida-school-as-gunman-killed-17-1202301523/

Also published in New York Times but need subscription

http://deadline.com/2018/02/four-broward-officers-stayed-outside-florida-school-as-gunman-killed-17-1202301523/

Coral Springs police depart. has no comment.

This is not about pay.

[boomerangutang]

How different is a trained cop and a trained soldier?  Both are trained to go in harm's way with courage, ...when need be.  Courage can't be taught, but it can be bolstered with good training (knowing your enemy/capabilities and knowing what you yourself are capable of, with the tools/strategies at hand).   

 

None of us know the precise details of what happened that day, but the cop/security guard should have at least checked out the problem.  He could have at least fired a shot in the air or in the general direction of the shooter.  Did he shout for the gun-wielder to put down his weapon?  I don't think so.  

[lannarebirth]

18 hours ago, impulse said:

 

What else would you call entering a building ALONE when there are an unknown number of gunmen, and all you know is that they're better armed than you are and they're willing to kill?  

 

 

 

I'd call it "in the line of duty" and "heroic". To not do so I'd call a "dereliction of duty" and possibly "cowardly".

[mtls2005]

So another three (3) armed Broward County Deputy Sheriffs waited outside. Evidently, they have been/will be disciplined.

 

 

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school

 

When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html

[Andaman Al]

16 hours ago, RKASA said:

After viewing the video the officer was placed on leave, but because he had the time in he simply retired.  An investigation as to why a 195cm 110kg uniformed, arm and trained officer did not do his job is on going. 

The officer does have more advantage then some may know - in that the shooter a confused nitwit for one thing and does not stand a chance if confronted by a trained officer (well - a willing one anyway).  If it was a terror attack with trained killers it would have been is last detail, but that is what you get paid 102,000 dollars (3.2million baht) a year for.

I see you have a PhD in Hindsight then !

 

It does't matter how tall and heavy you are, one bullet will drop you like an elephant.

 

How did the officer know that the shooter is a 'confused nitwit'?

 

How did the officer know how many shooters there were?

 

How did the officer know it was not a terror attack with trained killers ( i guess you mean a muslim jihadi attack)? - oh wait a minute it WAS a terror attack - with a White natural born American - so lets just classify it is a mad crazy man lunatic shooting, and if it was a muslim or immigrant a terror attack  - so build that wall.

 

Monday morning quarterbacks all talking like the guy is playing call of duty with a game reset button. Nobody knows how anyone will react when bullets start flying. I have seen the 'man mountain' turn to a pile of jelly in a combat situation, was he a coward, not at all, he just had a very different instinctual reaction to what was wanted at the time.

 

What happens when we give teachers guns and they "freeze' and hide under the table? The most ironic thing is something the Trump supporters just kind of miss. Yesterday we have Trump effectively calling this Deputy a coward - and everyone is  cheering. This coming from the "Commander in Chief' so s**t scared of going to Vietnam he invented 'bone spurs' on his feet - sorry 'foot' (and he can't remember which one it was!).

 

The shooter might be mad, it is debatable, but the fact that the country is mad is indisputable.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I'd call it "in the line of duty" and "heroic". To not do so I'd call a "dereliction of duty" and possibly "cowardly".

I feel somewhat sorry for the armed deputy.  He was clearly in the wrong job, as he didn't have the courage to move forward and try to stop the massacre.

 

I also suspect that his 'resignation' is at least partly due to him feeling very ashamed.

Edited February 24, 2018 by dick dasterdly