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Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this


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2 minutes ago, transam said:

Does ones logic not contain emotions...?

no, logic, if it is true logic, is free of emotions,there no good facts or bad facts there is only what is. Brexit is an unknown quantity, one can produce facts for and against so in the end supposition takes the place of logic, the human element comes into play, the 'little me' the ego, wants to be right and those who don't agree are wrong. It is quite surprising that thus far criticism has mostly been good natured and amusing. I must admit that I have learned a great deal from both sides, I am a remainer based on emotion, nothing else but that doesn't matter as it doesn't affect me. 

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1 hour ago, Orac said:

 


The ERM was a mistake and should serve as a lesson of what can happen when you have a politically weak PM (Thatcher at that point in time) forced into a position she disagreed with by members of her own party - remember how Lawson resigned the previous year because Thatcher wouldn’t allow him to sign up for ERM.

Either way the option was always there for parliament to remove her through a confidence vote.


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I used the ERM as an example of a parliamentary vote not being taken. The ERM disaster is the lesson to be learned.

 

Another lesson should be what what can happen when you have a bunch of economically clueless (pro Europe) senior ministers plotting to remove their boss because she didn't agree with them. Eventually, she was forced to accept the idea as she knew it was a matter of survival but that only lasted another month anyway. I know a lot of people hated Thatcher but to call her weak is ridiculous.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

no, logic, if it is true logic, is free of emotions,there no good facts or bad facts there is only what is. Brexit is an unknown quantity, one can produce facts for and against so in the end supposition takes the place of logic, the human element comes into play, the 'little me' the ego, wants to be right and those who don't agree are wrong. It is quite surprising that thus far criticism has mostly been good natured and amusing. I must admit that I have learned a great deal from both sides, I am a remainer based on emotion, nothing else but that doesn't matter as it doesn't affect me. 

Think you are drifting around in your own bubble, l reckon all folk feel emotions together with their logic..

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I used the ERM as an example of a parliamentary vote not being taken. The ERM disaster is the lesson to be learned.
 
Another lesson should be what what can happen when you have a bunch of economically clueless (pro Europe) senior ministers plotting to remove their boss because she didn't agree with them. Eventually, she was forced to accept the idea as she knew it was a matter of survival but that only lasted another month anyway. I know a lot of people hated Thatcher but to call her weak is ridiculous.
 
 


I said politically weak at the time - she was effectively removed by her own party only months later.


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1 minute ago, transam said:

Think you are drifting around in your own bubble, l reckon all folk feel emotions together with their logic..

only in so far as that the facts may lead to the only logical conclusion possible that you then like or dislike but the logic leading up to that conclusion has to be free of emotion otherwise the thinking process is clouded with bias and is then no longer logic.

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3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

only in so far as that the facts may lead to the only logical conclusion possible that you then like or dislike but the logic leading up to that conclusion has to be free of emotion otherwise the thinking process is clouded with bias and is then no longer logic.

bored.gif.1308079007966a2599f9a735a87aff5b.gif....I am glad I don't have the same thoughts as yourself....:smile:

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15 hours ago, Grouse said:

It's a bloody joke!!

 

Watt Tyler

 

Which Tyler? Pedants?

 

Jesus

 

Better stick to low level stuff that Brexiters might understand

 

 

 

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

  13 hours ago, Grouse said:

Worth repeating: The pedants revolt was led by Which Tyler ?

Grouse has already answered the question!

It's Jesus Tyler

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5 hours ago, nauseus said:

No obfuscation, scaremongering, nor denial. The EU has been quite open about the aim for all members to use the Euro. This is a clear goal of the EU and actually makes sense (from a EU perspective). The Euro will be imposed on all members eventually, if the EU itself survives that long. 

It's a goal

 

UK could stay out indefinitely 

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Thank goodness we are leaving this club.

 

"The stash of files slipped to Euro-MPs – in a very rare breach of secrecy rules – amount a political bombshell. It is highly embarrassing for the EU's exalted competition directorate. The papers imply that Brussels learned the full truth but is nevertheless turning a blind eye as it prepares to reach a cosy understanding with Moscow, disregarding fundamental principles of EU law."

 

https://worldiscrazyblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/12/leaked-eu-files-show-brussels-cover-up-and-collusion-on-putins-gazprom-abuses/

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4 hours ago, Orac said:

 


The ERM was a mistake and should serve as a lesson of what can happen when you have a politically weak PM (Thatcher at that point in time) forced into a position she disagreed with by members of her own party - remember how Lawson resigned the previous year because Thatcher wouldn’t allow him to sign up for ERM.

Either way the option was always there for parliament to remove her through a confidence vote.


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Norman Lamont plonker par excellence!

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6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Try this: a girl walks into a bar and asks the barman for a double entendre;  so he gives her one.

 

Hello? Anyone at home?

I prefer, a neutron walks into a bar and says how much for a drink. The barman says for you no charge.

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4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Parliament should certainly have a vote on adopting the Euro but I'm not actually sure about this - there was no vote, as far as  can remember, when we joined the ERM, which turned out to be a total disater. It is more likely that adoption of the Euro would be included in some future EU treaty, as part of the small print! Little is clear as far as the EU goes but the weaker it gets, the more desperate it is likely to become.  

We have a formal indefinite opt out against adopting the Euro which expires when we leave and won't be permitted when we rejoin. Same with our rebate. Thanks brightsparks ?

 

Can you fools really not see what a sweet position we have?Manufacturing vehicles for which we are paid in pounds and exporting them to the EU with no tariffs to be sold in Euro???? No customs, nothing?

 

But, but, but we want our soveignty ?

 

Utterly ridiculous.

 

Watch out for Brexit maniacs insinuating that we would HAVE to adopt the Euro. Just more fragrant lies. If that particular lie is repeated I will report in with the formal backup material 

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And we all remember who made billions by shorting the pound and crashing our currency during the ERM crisis, don't we? George Soros, the man bankrolling several anti-Brexit groups. A man who has always had British interests at heart...



Is this a doubling down from the ‘forced to join the euro’ conspiracy theory to ‘Soros plot’ conspiracy theory?


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20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Watch out for Brexit maniacs insinuating that we would HAVE to adopt the Euro. Just more fragrant lies. If that particular lie is repeated I will report in with the formal backup material 

As a fragrant Brexit maniac can I quote you Mr Junckers Debate on the State of the Union.

He said: "It is high time to bring Romania and Bulgaria into the Schengen area. And incidentally, Croatia too deserves full membership. if we want the Euro to unite our continent rather than dividing it.

"All but two member states are duty bound to join the Euro area. These member states need the support of a euro accession instrument." 

I am not insinuating we will have to join the euro but on the basis of what has been said one way or another the EU will force us to because you can't trust the buggers. See the most recent post on how trustworthy they are no. 3975

 

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15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We have a formal indefinite opt out against adopting the Euro which expires when we leave and won't be permitted when we rejoin. Same with our rebate. Thanks brightsparks ?

 

Can you fools really not see what a sweet position we have?Manufacturing vehicles for which we are paid in pounds and exporting them to the EU with no tariffs to be sold in Euro???? No customs, nothing?

 

But, but, but we want our soveignty ?

 

Utterly ridiculous.

 

Watch out for Brexit maniacs insinuating that we would HAVE to adopt the Euro. Just more fragrant lies. If that particular lie is repeated I will report in with the formal backup material 

If you won't see that each successive treaty changes the rules then up to you. 

 

The UK had a trade deficit of GBP 82 billion with the EU in 2016. How sweet a position is that?

 

I have already said that eventually all EU member states will have to adopt the Euro. Report away if it makes you feel better. I'm off to shower the mother-in-law. 

 

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A lot of remainers on here have talked about how powerful the EU is, and how we have no chance negotiating with them because they always get their way. So what about when they decide it's time for all member states to adopt the Euro?
 
It is naïve to think the EU could not find a way to force us in. It doesn't have to be a direct order. They could devise a way to disadvantage those not using the Euro to the extent that we had no choice.
 
Don't underestimate the dogged ambition of those running this vanity project.



Is it Groundhog Day or something?

We discussed this yesterday where it came down to your claims being backed up by nothing more than ‘a feeling’. If you have come up with something more substantial that gets round the treaty obligations and opt outs that are the legal basis for us not requiring to adopt the euro then please tell us about them rather than perpetuating this lie that you seem to be clinging to.


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12 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

So the argument at the moment from the Brexiteers seems to be..

Yes we know we are  going to be worse off by leaving the EU but if we stayed we would be forced to join the Euro so we are better off.  Is that right?

I think we will adopt the Euro as a working currency quicker now that we are out of the EU.  

Foreigners will see how short term balance of trade issues and uncertainty affect the stability of our currency, and insist on doing business in either Euros or US dollars.

Tourists won't want the uncertainty of currency exchange risk, so they will prefer to shop in shops that accept Euros.

Regardless of what is our legal tender, people will use what ever currency suits them.

 

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16 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

So the argument at the moment from the Brexiteers seems to be..

Yes we know we are  going to be worse off by leaving the EU but if we stayed we would be forced to join the Euro so we are better off.  Is that right?

No! The argument is as full and complex as it has ever been.

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3 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think we will adopt the Euro as a working currency quicker now that we are out of the EU.  

Foreigners will see how short term balance of trade issues and uncertainty affect the stability of our currency, and insist on doing business in either Euros or US dollars.

Tourists won't want the uncertainty of currency exchange risk, so they will prefer to shop in shops that accept Euros.

Regardless of what is our legal tender, people will use what ever currency suits them.

 

US dollars maybe, but not the Euro. Uncertainty is having 19 different countries' economies underlying one currency. Economies ranging from Greece to Germany.  

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13 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

 

 


Is it Groundhog Day or something?

We discussed this yesterday where it came down to your claims being backed up by nothing more than ‘a feeling’. If you have come up with something more substantial that gets round the treaty obligations and opt outs that are the legal basis for us not requiring to adopt the euro then please tell us about them rather than perpetuating this lie that you seem to be clinging to.


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I've already explained how they could get around the treaty obligations.  Read my comment again.

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