You're deemed a resident of Thailand if you stay 180 days

[wolf81]

If you'r married with a Thai national and looking into gaining residency status in Thailand, I believe (from what I've read) it can be beneficial to pay income taxes in Thailand. And you only have to pay taxes over money that you move into the country. So if you keep most of your assets outside of Thailand and perhaps only move 400.000 Baht a year into Thailand, you only would have to pay income tax over this amount of money. That shouldn't be too much I would imagine. 

[MaeJoMTB]

If you are male and haven't got a work permit, you can't gain residency ....... end of.

Edited March 4, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[wordchild]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is a bit strong considering you may not be right. This is an extract from a letter I received from HMRC in response to questions regarding my state pension.

 

"Please be aware if you decide to live abroad permanently, that if you have income from a
source in one country and are resident in another, you may be liable to pay tax in both
countries under their tax laws.
To avoid "double taxation" in this situation, the UK has negotiated Double Taxation (DT)
treaties with more than 100 other countries. Each treaty is called either a 'Double Taxation
Agreement" or a "Double Taxation Convention", depending on the wording of the treaty. The
United Kingdom does have a DTA with Thailand and this can be viewed in full on the website."

 

I know from the letter that the HMRC were referring to my state pension in terms of income but you are perfectly free to take your own view. You shouldn't really try and make out your view is fact when it is not that cut and dried.

What I said was correct, however do your own research. Maybe start by reading the actual treaty,  ie as regards taxation between the U.K. and Thailand, rather than quoting from some generic comment. Many taxation treaties ,that the U.K. has with other countries, cover private pensions, however the current one (with Thailand) does not.  Most pensions and ALL private pensions are not covered by the existing U.K. Thailand tax treaty, that is a fact. If you doubt what I say get reading.

The existing treaty is somewhat dated and is lacking coverage in many important areas. Not only pensions, but in other somewhat more significant, commercial areas. There has been a new treaty in the works for a number of years now, but it keeps getting delayed, for one reason or another.  Maybe when the new one is duly signed off it will include a reference to the mutual treatment of pensions.

[Mattd]

18 hours ago, wordchild said:

Most pensions and ALL private pensions are not covered by the existing U.K. Thailand tax treaty, that is a fact. If you doubt what I say get reading.

This is 100% correct and probably due to the DTA dating back to 1981 when private pensions were in their infancy.

 

What this does means in effect is that IF a person is liable to pay personal income tax (PIT) on their pension income that is derived in the UK, such that even if that person had already paid PIT on the pension income in the UK, they would get zero credit on the balance that is sent to Thailand and therefore could be subject to paying PIT in Thailand as well, in effect, double taxation.

So long as the pension is from overseas and none of the original money for this pension was ever earned in Thailand, then from can be found on the internet, this money would not be subject to Thai PIT.

Explanation here: https://www.aesinternational.com/financial-planning/retirement-planning/tax-on-pensions/qrops-thailand

In the eyes of most governments nowadays a person should be paying tax somewhere, this understanding is only going to get worse with stuff like Common Reporting Standards etc. even something simple like opening a brokerage account as a UK (EC) citizen who is a non UK (EC) resident is nigh on impossible now, with the brokers needing lots of information and certified documents.

 

Some may find this an interesting read, it is related to Norwegian pensioners and it is an official Revenue Department document.

http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

 

I will try to see if there is similar for UK pensioners.

 

Edit: UK Government document regarding DTA's and what is covered, you will see that private AND state pensions are not covered under the DTA agreement with Thailand.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670849/Digest_of_Double_Taxation_Treaties_Nov_2017.pdf

Edited March 5, 2018 by Mattd

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, wordchild said:

What I said was correct, however do your own research. Maybe start by reading the actual treaty,  ie as regards taxation between the U.K. and Thailand, rather than quoting from some generic comment. Many taxation treaties ,that the U.K. has with other countries, cover private pensions, however the current one (with Thailand) does not.  Most pensions and ALL private pensions are not covered by the existing U.K. Thailand tax treaty, that is a fact. If you doubt what I say get reading.

The existing treaty is somewhat dated and is lacking coverage in many important areas. Not only pensions, but in other somewhat more significant, commercial areas. There has been a new treaty in the works for a number of years now, but it keeps getting delayed, for one reason or another.  Maybe when the new one is duly signed off it will include a reference to the mutual treatment of pensions.

I am not as clever as you so I will just accept what I am told by HMRC.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

Edit: UK Government document regarding DTA's and what is covered, you will see that private AND state pensions are not covered under the DTA agreement with Thailand.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670849/Digest_of_Double_Taxation_Treaties_Nov_2017.pdf

Your document refers to relief from UK income tax.

Page 3 - "The State Pension is paid to people who have reached State Pension age. It is based on National Insurance contributions (NICs) and relief from UK income tax is available under the terms of many, but not all, double taxation treaties."

 

Page 7 - "The table includes the main sources of UK income for which relief from UK Income Tax may be available."

 

Nobody has mentioned not paying UK tax , the question has been about paying tax twice, something that the HMRC has told me that the DTA is intended to avoid but each to their own interpretation.

[Mattd]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Nobody has mentioned not paying UK tax , the question has been about paying tax twice, something that the HMRC has told me that the DTA is intended to avoid but each to their own interpretation.

Unfortunately the DTA between the UK & Thailand does not include pensions, apart from Government ones, i.e. civil services etc.

This is very clear in all the documentation available online and is backed up by the overview of worldwide UK tax agreements in the link you re-posted, scroll down to Thailand and you will see that there is no double taxation agreement in place for private and state pensions within the tax treaty signed by the two countries, based on item 4 in the notes column.

If you research this, then technically a person could be taxed twice on pension income when this is the case, the crux of this is can Thailand lay claim to tax the income generated by an overseas pension and then transferred to Thailand, most research suggests that they do not do this.

[JimGant]

Quote

In the eyes of most governments nowadays a person should be paying tax somewhere, this understanding is only going to get worse with stuff like Common Reporting Standards

Correct. Google on "double non taxation" to see where the OECD Model Tax Treaties are headed.

 

Your Norway example shows something similar to what the US has, namely, its "saving clause." This clause, found in all the US double taxation treaties, says basically: "We the US tax everything, then we give tax credits where credits are due per the tax treaty language." Norway is similar -- pay tax first to Thailand, per the treaty, then show us your Thai tax return for a credit against your Norwegian taxes. Don't show it -- then, no tax credit. Samo samo getting a US tax credit for Thai taxes paid -- except it's purely declaration, with no need to show your Thai tax return. Your taxes, then, will depend on which of the two countries has the higher tax rate.

 

Per the above, the situation is called "first dibs." If the treaty says Thailand has "exclusive" taxation rights on US private pensions (and Norwegian pensions en entirety), then Thailand keeps the tax proceeds, and the US (and Norway) pay those proceeds via their tax credits (again, "exclusive" rights in the tax treaty means nothing when a "saving clause" or equivalent exists). You, the taxpayer, are out of pocket whichever country had the higher tax rate. Actually, kinda nifty -- in ensuring no "double non taxation." If Thailand doesn't want to avail itself with the treaty right to tax all those tax resident farangs -- well, hey, now the home country gets all the loot. Somehow you gotta expect all those other farang countries not collecting any taxes -- along with Thailand -- may want to do a head scratch.

 

And once Thailand begins getting copies of all those farang tax data via FATCA and CRS, like a US 1099R showing all my private and IRA income paid out in the previous year -- you think they just might want to use all those treaty languages, giving them "first dibs," to just tax all those farangs? Gosh, just change the language to eliminate the clause about "no taxes due if income not brought in in the year earned. Stay tuned.

 

That the Brit treaty is completely silent on private (and State) pensions, is strange. It leaves wide open about who gets "first dibs" (and thus who gets to keep the tax collections). It also shoots a hole in this clause in the Thai-UK tax treaty:

 

Quote

In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income.

Yeah, except the Convention says nothing about private pensions (and thus 'first dibs').... Now what, Jack?

 

 

[JimGant]

Another oddity. The OECD Model Tax Treaty usually had an article entitled 'Other Income." It succinctly  said:

 

Quote

Items of income of a resident of a Contracting State, wherever arising, not dealt
with in the foregoing Articles of this Convention shall be taxable only in that State.

That was left out of the Thai-UK treaty. Odd, as that would have been a catch all for such income as private and State pensions. Intentional obfuscation?

[Naam]

On 3/3/2018 at 9:05 AM, simoh1490 said:

I'm not certain you understand the discussion - what's being discussed is that tax residency is greater than 180 days and that at some point in the future overseas income that is brought into Thailand in the year it is earned, could be subject to Thai tax. I agree at present it is not subject to Thai tax but I don't think there's anything in Thai tax law that says it cannot be taxed in the future, unless you can provide a link to something that says otherwise. And I also have lived here for 16 years and I'm also a pensioner in receipt of overseas pensions.

sorry Mate, two wrong assumptions.

"at some point in the future could ne taxed" =  wrong,

"at present not subject to Thai tax" = wrong

 

according to prevailing Thai tax law any income brought into the country at any time is taxable. the present practice ("brought into the country same year bla-bla") differs from the law because it is difficult to enforce. let's enjoy it because it might not last forever.

 

p.s. i am referring to "real" income and not to peanuts amounts such as pensions. 

[simoh1490]

And there we have it, I would regard that as being the final word on this subject.

[Naam]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

sorry Mate, two wrong assumptions.

"at some point in the future could ne taxed" =  wrong,

"at present not subject to Thai tax" = wrong

 

according to prevailing Thai tax law any income brought into the country at any time is taxable. the present practice ("brought into the country same year bla-bla") differs from the law because it is difficult to enforce. let's enjoy it because it might not last forever.

 

p.s. i am referring to "real" income and not to peanuts amounts such as pensions. 

excluded and treated separately is income where paid or withheld tax triggers double tax agreements.

[Naam]

9 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

And there we have it, I would regard that as being the final word on this subject.

if we live long enough we will see many more tax threads in Thaivisa

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, Mattd said:

Unfortunately the DTA between the UK & Thailand does not include pensions, apart from Government ones, i.e. civil services etc.

This is very clear in all the documentation available online and is backed up by the overview of worldwide UK tax agreements in the link you re-posted, scroll down to Thailand and you will see that there is no double taxation agreement in place for private and state pensions within the tax treaty signed by the two countries, based on item 4 in the notes column.

If you research this, then technically a person could be taxed twice on pension income when this is the case, the crux of this is can Thailand lay claim to tax the income generated by an overseas pension and then transferred to Thailand, most research suggests that they do not do this.

As I pointed out the "no relief" in Note 4 means no relief from UK income tax, this statement appears just above the note 4 you refer to "The table includes the main sources of UK income for which relief from UK Income Tax may be available." Feel free to read it any other way you want.

[Mattd]

Just now, sandyf said:

As I pointed out the "no relief" in Note 4 means no relief from UK income tax, this statement appears just above the note 4 you refer to "The table includes the main sources of UK income for which relief from UK Income Tax may be available." Feel free to read it any other way you want.

I do understand where you are coming from, however, the DTA between Thailand and UK does not include pensions apart from Civil Service types, it is reciprocal by it's very nature.

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, Mattd said:

I do understand where you are coming from, however, the DTA between Thailand and UK does not include pensions apart from Civil Service types, it is reciprocal by it's very nature.

The English in the document you posted is very clear. it refers to relief from UK income tax, not what you have tried to imply. As for the DTA I will just take the HMRC view on that, and its time I had a beer.

[Mattd]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The English in the document you posted is very clear. it refers to relief from UK income tax, not what you have tried to imply. As for the DTA I will just take the HMRC view on that, and its time I had a beer.

Go for it, enjoy, another couple of hours before my first, got to finish work first and that does get taxed

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, Mattd said:

Go for it, enjoy, another couple of hours before my first, got to finish work first and that does get taxed

You mean like my state pension. The beer always goes down well sat on the verandah as the sun goes down.

[rickudon]

My thoughts about taxation on pensions in Thailand .... Firstly, i do not have any pension moneys sent direct to Thailand, therefore hard to prove if money was earned in the current tax year. Secondly, i do not send any (well, very little) direct from UK bank to Thai bank, i use a credit card in Thailand. So no bank knows about how much money i send to Thailand, only the credit card company ..... so am i officially remitting money to Thailand by using a credit card or not? Thirdly, also some times use services like Transferwise, so now to find out how much money i bring in you need to know about my credit card use, Swift transfers, money transfer services, and any cash I bring. And their could theoretically be multiple banks and credit cards involved ..... that is going to take some serious  research  to collate.

Finally, as i do not transfer any money regularly from UK banks to Thailand, they do not know if i live in Thailand, i still maintain a UK address for correspondence.

 

And if the UK decides to stop the UK personal allowance for expats i will do my utmost to keep my residency opaque to any government! Also, I am sure the UK does not want thousands of homeless pensioners flooding back to the UK and asking for housing and other benefits they would now be entitled to.

[sandyf]

On 3/9/2018 at 12:09 AM, rickudon said:

Also, I am sure the UK does not want thousands of homeless pensioners flooding back to the UK and asking for housing and other benefits they would now be entitled to.

Like many other issues in the UK, that would be ignored until it became a problem, then the focus would be on who to blame.

[NoshowJones]

Just another case of people in authority making up rules to suit themselves, in reality, there are very few farangs who are residents of Thailand.

 

You are a resident of Thailand or you are not, which is it to be?

[NoshowJones]

On 02/03/2018 at 9:42 AM, Neeranam said:

I know a few professional gamblers lining in Thailand too. I know some who made a fortune on cryptocurrencies, etc.

It comes down to how honest you are, can you live with tax fraud on your ?

 

Honest???? If your government is not honest, why should you be?

[NoshowJones]

On 02/03/2018 at 11:25 AM, simoh1490 said:

There's a big difference between being resident and being resident for tax purposes.

Really?? That is just the taxman turning things round to suit himself.

[NoshowJones]

On 02/03/2018 at 2:32 PM, HooHaa said:

reading is tricky

 

 

Is that right? Is Thailand inferring that us retirees are residents? If that is so, then we should stop this 90 day reporting nonsense. We are either residents or not, which is it to be?

[simoh1490]

59 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Really?? That is just the taxman turning things round to suit himself.

No, it's the way the world is in almost every country.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Honest???? If your government is not honest, why should you be?

Good point. However, like I said, sooner people's conscience gets in their way of happiness or spiritual progress.

[Naam]

7 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Is that right? Is Thailand inferring that us retirees are residents? If that is so, then we should stop this 90 day reporting nonsense. We are either residents or not, which is it to be?

in my [not so] humble personal view Thailand's advantages would even justify a 30 day reporting nonsense.

[Neeranam]

On 09/03/2018 at 12:09 AM, rickudon said:

And if the UK decides to stop the UK personal allowance for expats i will do my utmost to keep my residency opaque to any government! Also, I am sure the UK does not want thousands of homeless pensioners flooding back to the UK and asking for housing and other benefits they would now be entitled to.

Amazing how lawbreakers can justify their actions. If you can sleep well at night, great. Personally, rigorous honesty has greater benefits in my life.

[Neeranam]

On 04/03/2018 at 5:04 PM, MaeJoMTB said:

If you are male and haven't got a work permit, you can't gain residency ....... end of.

You are mixing up residency with permanent residency. I'm a resident, but don't have PR.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Neeranam

[MaeJoMTB]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

You are mixing up residency with permanent residency.

I'm neither, I leave every 90 days.