Hopes of Brexit transition deal face Irish barrier

[StreetCowboy]

5 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Yes but.........

NO!

no grizzling. Stop it...

[Jip99]

6 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

No it isn't.  Democracy doesn't mean if you make a big mistake you have to suck it up and accept it.  In fact that is about as undemocratic as you can get.

 

It is not a mistake.

[StreetCowboy]

10 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Because that is democracy.

Exactly.  Elect a government, get them to do the job, if they can't, or you want a different job done, elect a different government. 

 

Or did you mean - we can't do what you suggest, because what you suggest is democracy?

 

Although brevity is the soul of wit [1], you can take it too far.

 

[1] Oscar Wilde 

[dunroaming]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

It is not a mistake.

Not in your world maybe but for those of us who care about the future for our kids it's a massive mistake.

[StreetCowboy]

29 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Not in your world maybe but for those of us who care about the future for our kids it's a massive mistake.

An honest mistake might be more easily forgiven.

 

 In the future, people won’ttalk About Brexit.  They’ll keep quiet about how they voted, and children whose parents were Brexiteers will claim to have been adopted, or kidnapped, or accidentally swapped at birth.

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Because that is democracy.

And that is precisely why we don't have "literal" democracy. We can't possibly meet the conditions for that to work. Ask the Greeks!

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

Not in your world maybe but for those of us who care about the future for our kids it's a massive mistake.

 

 

I care at least as much for my kids futures which is why I, and the majority, voted to leave the EU.

[Jip99]

36 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And that is precisely why we don't have "literal" democracy. We can't possibly meet the conditions for that to work. Ask the Greeks!

 

 

Don't shoot the messenger...

 

The system/rules said that the majority vote would determine whether we remained in the EU or left. 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Don't shoot the messenger...

 

The system/rules said that the majority vote would determine whether we remained in the EU or left. 

And yet again, the "majority" does not confer correctness

 

(Your kids will murder you when they find out!)

[StreetCowboy]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Don't shoot the messenger...

 

The system/rules said that the majority vote would determine whether we remained in the EU or left. 

My understanding is that it was not enshrined in law I.e. not legally binding.  Like you, after I’ve taken a wrong turning, I hate turning back, but sometimes, eventually, you have to admit that the best way forward is back the way you came

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

 

(Your kids will murder you when they find out!)

 

 

Then my Will says that they will be disinherited !!

[StreetCowboy]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Then my Will says that they will be disinherited !!

Your kids will probably be working as illegal immigrants in Lithuania, while you are looked after in your dotage by Eritreans on a reserve set up by the Russians for indigenous Britons somewhere in the valleys North of Cardiff

[dunroaming]

17 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I care at least as much for my kids futures which is why I, and the majority, voted to leave the EU.

And yet overwhelming the young who were old enough to vote, voted to remain.  It should be for parents to make sure all doors are open to their offspring, not closed.

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Don't shoot the messenger...

 

The system/rules said that the majority vote would determine whether we remained in the EU or left. 

And yet again, the "majority" does not confer correctness

 

(Your kids will murder you when they find out!)

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

My understanding is that it was not enshrined in law I.e. not legally binding.  Like you, after I’ve taken a wrong turning, I hate turning back, but sometimes, eventually, you have to admit that the best way forward is back the way you came

 

 

I have no hesitation turning back if I have taken a wrong turn..... it is often better to go back than go on.

 

BUT, this is not a trip around Bangkok, it is BREXIT.

 

Nothing that I have seen since I voted to leave would make me change my mind.

 

Perhaps it is because of the reasons I voted to leave... essentially, to escape the control of what I believed was the monster that the EU had become. I also wanted greater control over our borders and immigration policies.

 

I am no racist and I don't want to "build the wall", I think multi-culturalism and early immigration enhanced the culture of the UK. I love Europe and will again spend time in neighbouring countries - I voted to leave the EU not Europe.

 

Just because the Brexit process is difficult (and has been managed appallingly from the start) doesn't make it wrong. All the reactions from the unelected leaders of the EU have done nothing to dilute my loathing for them (individually) and the EU project.

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43428432

 

Way off topic but this is the sort of issue we SHOULD be talking about

[dunroaming]

9 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Then my Will says that they will be disinherited !!

Yes leave it up to Will, whoever he may be 

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

And yet overwhelming the young who were old enough to vote, voted to remain.  It should be for parents to make sure all doors are open to their offspring, not closed.

 

 

That is too naive to contemplate.

 

The young would have voted in Corbyn, based just on his student loan lies.

 

My future could comprise 30 years so I have to live with the result. The young don't have all the answers and wisdom ONLY comes with age/experience. My selflessness has cost me £30k in income since Brexit on exchange rates; if my investments were realised and transferred now I would have lost capital of £145k.

 

One of my daughters voted to remain - her deciding factor (living in London) was that she thought she would be safer (from terrorism) within the EU.

 

Everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they did.

 

For me, had Cameron got any balls there would not have been a vote.

[StreetCowboy]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43428432

 

Way off topic but this is the sort of issue we SHOULD be talking about

There are many who relish the prospect of a more divided and weaker Europe, and you can see some of their employees hard at work even on tHe’s threads, I believe.

 

if it is true that the EU is a monster, then we should get on its back and tame it, not challenge it to do its worst.

 

 We have no choice but to follow the standards of our customers; I would prefer to have some say in the development of their standards.

 

Europe may develop a common foreign and defence policy; I would wish my country to help steer that.

 

perhaps, like Switzerland, we can establish a position as the amoral money-launderers for the world, in a position of neutrality.  That’s not what I aspire to.

[dunroaming]

18 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I have no hesitation turning back if I have taken a wrong turn..... it is often better to go back than go on.

 

BUT, this is not a trip around Bangkok, it is BREXIT.

 

Nothing that I have seen since I voted to leave would make me change my mind.

 

Perhaps it is because of the reasons I voted to leave... essentially, to escape the control of what I believed was the monster that the EU had become. I also wanted greater control over our borders and immigration policies.

 

I am no racist and I don't want to "build the wall", I think multi-culturalism and early immigration enhanced the culture of the UK. I love Europe and will again spend time in neighbouring countries - I voted to leave the EU not Europe.

 

Just because the Brexit process is difficult (and has been managed appallingly from the start) doesn't make it wrong. All the reactions from the unelected leaders of the EU have done nothing to dilute my loathing for them (individually) and the EU project.

Thank you for clarifying your position.  I agree that the EU was going off of the rails and has outgrown it's original concept.  It is right that it should have evolved and should continue to do so by major reforms.  However it has served us well over the years and contributed in making us the 5th wealthiest trading country in the world. We have a powerful voice in the EU and should use that to change things.  By leaving it is likely that we will still have to pay in and acccept many of the EU regulations but have no voice at all.  I believe that is where we will end up and therefore will not achieve the things you or I, voted for.

 

I could be wrong and I hope I am because if that is the outcome then we all lose.

Edited March 16, 2018 by dunroaming

[The manic]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Ireland is a soveriegn nation that broke free of occupation nearly 100 years ago. Who is the UK to demand that another soveriegn nation dance to the very poorly executed tune that it is struggling to conceive, let alone play? What is shocking is the imperialistic notions of so many Brits in assuming that we still have power and influence in the world. Those days were gone before most of us were born, but we still think we are special. Delusions of grandeur doesn't come close.

If they are a sovereign nation who is their king? Why do they rely on the UK and interfere with the will of the British people? I was bought up with and nearly killed by the Irish terrorist campaign.. Funded and armed by Ghaddaffi.. We did not join the EU to bullied by Irish thugs,  knees cappers government touts and child murderers. Why should we dance to their tune? As a semi thirld world country Eire was eligible for EU money and hoovered it up like an addicted sniffing coke.  The English got nothing. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by The manic

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

That is too naive to contemplate.

 

The young would have voted in Corbyn, based just on his student loan lies.

 

My future could comprise 30 years so I have to live with the result. The young don't have all the answers and wisdom ONLY comes with age/experience. My selflessness has cost me £30k in income since Brexit on exchange rates; if my investments were realised and transferred now I would have lost capital of £145k.

 

One of my daughters voted to remain - her deciding factor (living in London) was that she thought she would be safer (from terrorism) within the EU.

 

Everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they did.

 

For me, had Cameron got any balls there would not have been a vote.

 

My daughter and all her uni mates voted remain because someone told them brexit would stop them from travelling around Europe.

[samran]

15 hours ago, khunken said:

Well there you have it - the high & mighty UK talking down to the Irish serfs. It's one of the reasons that Ireland wanted & gained independence, unfortunately not for the whole island.

 

Earlier May made one offer that was acceptable to Ireland & the EU. That was vetoed by the DUP that May relies on to stay in power. Subsequently the UK has not made another acceptable offer. That is the problem.

 

Wouldn't it be so ironic if little old Ireland was the catalyst that buggered the arrogant UK government's attempts to fudge the border issue in order to benefit from an orderly Brexit? No, I hope it doesn't happen but the ball is in the UK's court.

It isn’t suprising with these blokes. They talk about shared history etc but when it comes down to it and you scratch the surface just a little the same old chauvinism and bigotry comes out.

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, The manic said:

If they are a sovereign nation who is their king? Why do they rely on the UK and interfere with the will of the British people? I was bought up with and nearly killed by the Irish terrorist campaign.. Funded and armed by Ghaddaffi.. We did not join the EU to bullied by Irish thugs,  knees cappers government touts and child murderers. Why should we dance to their tune? As a semi thirld world country Eire was eligible for EU money and hoovered it up like an addicted sniffing coke.  The English got nothing. 

I am not sure that you fully understand the concept of sovereignty - try this.

 

As for the rest - you really need to open your eyes to the increasingly decrepit, feral state of the UK, and how the Tories are dragging it further and further into the gutter. Typical British arrogance and self denial are what led us to this national tragedy, and the unwarranted hubris of peope like yourself is what is going to destroy the UK as a political entity. Keep up the excellent work, there's a good serf.

[Jip99]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 Typical British arrogance and self denial are what led us to this national tragedy,

 

You know you have lost the argument when you resort to bigoted, racist stereo-typing.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

You know you have lost the argument when you resort to bigoted, racist stereo-typing.

Fantastic - in a thread where the irish en mass are called thugs, their country labeled semi-third world and they are castigated as freeloaders, yet you take offence at 'typical British arrogance'!

But you raise an interesting philisophical question - is it possible for one to be racist and bigoted against oneself?

[Jip99]

20 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But you raise an interesting philisophical question - is it possible for one to be racist and bigoted against oneself?

 

 

Far too cerebral for this time of day.............

[StreetCowboy]

Stereo-typing is when you attribute the characteristics of the category to its members, without consideration for their individuality, not when you attribute personality traits to a country.  That would be anthropomorphism.

[Srikcir]

15 hours ago, The manic said:

If they are a sovereign nation who is their king?

Who is the king of the United Kingdom?

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, Srikcir said:

Who is the king of the United Kingdom?

Is this quiz going to be a long one?