Dowry?

[Craigee34]

Hi I'm new here I am marrying my thai gf next year we are both in our thirties.. I a bit confused about the dowry and how it works sensible answers would be greatly appreciated thank you

[maprao]

Married before with kids pay nothing.

Then upto you.

You can pay from 30k to 10 million like the guy who married the guy the other day

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chickenslegs]

Strictly speaking, "dowry" is the money paid by the bride's family to the groom.

 

Ask for 10,000,000 baht, but be prepared to accept less.

 

 

( - I did see your request for "sensible answers", but I couldn't resist).

 

[idman]

Would you pay a dowry to wed the woman you love in your country of birth??  Sod this dowry b.s. and please dont try and excuse this Thai practice as something a Farang has to do.  

[meechai]

A couple of decades ago I was in your shoes

 

So I asked my future mother in-law (rest her soul) what was expected

They were poor farmers & she told me her daughter was not for sale but

should we marry she hoped I would take care of her daughter & hoped that we would be very healthy & happy together.

 

I knew then & there that this was a good family & I was not proved wrong.

 

Good Luck to you

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by meechai

[Jip99]

Post #5 says it all.

 

If your girl, or her family, expect/demand anything different then take some time to consider your position.

[mstevens]

Take your time to carefully consider the dowry.  Too many guys are pressured in to paying without really understanding what is involved and what will happen with the money.

 

While some foreigners are ok with it, to many foreigners - and I am one of them - the practice of the family of a bride to be insisting on the payment of a dowry before they will permit their daughter to marry is abhorrent, especially given the financial expectations a man marrying a Thai woman takes on.

 

If you're open-minded to the idea of paying a dowry, find out how much they expect (it will be made up of cash, gold and maybe some other items of value) and find out EXACTLY what will happen to it after the marriage ceremony.  In some cases the family keep the entire dowry for themselves and use it as they please.  In some cases it is all given to the bride.  In other cases it is returned to the groom.

 

There are various arguments for (and against) the dowry.  Some say it is to compensate the family for the cost of raising their daughter / the cost of losing a worker if she works with them (typically on a family farm).  Some say it is a "guarantee" that if the groom leaves the bride after marriage then she has this money can be used to look after her as she could not possibly hope to marry again (an outdated belief amongst Thais which is no longer valid today).  Some say the money is to gain face so the larger the dowry, the better.

 

Personally, I don't care for any of these reasons for paying the dowry.  In the ideas of some foreigners I am being disrespectful as it is part of the culture that I am not following.  But what about my culture (Australia)?  The idea of having to pay a large sum of money to marry someone in Australia would be ridiculed.  I find the idea of the dowry highly distasteful....but then plenty of Western guys have paid it and claim to be ok with it.  Ultimately you have to do what is right for you.

[FritsSikkink]

Don't pay.

[poanoi]

paying in advance is not advisable, cause there's no refund

[AYJAYDEE]

The dowry is  money given by the groom to the parents of the bride to secure his position in the brides family as traditionally the groom went to live with her family and either lived in the parents house or built their own house on land supplied by the parents. he then acquired a living assisting the parents with their farm and later took over the running of that farm when the land was passed down to his wife. The society has changed somewhat from being completely agricultural but the property and other asset details are much the same

[KhaoYai]

As you will see, there are a lot of differing viewpoints on this matter.  Dowry, or Sin Sot as it's known in Thailand is a part of Thai culture whether us foreigners like it or not.  Two of my Thai friends both had to wait for 4 years to get married so the guy could save up enough for his Sin Sot. However, in a lot of middle class families the practice of giving Sin Sot is dying out.  By contrast, some 'Hi-So' marriages are marked out by ridiculously high Sin Sot's as they each try to out do each other.  It seems that the only section of society where the tradition remains strong is with the poorer familes. In all sections of society it is quite common for the Sin Sot to be used for show and returned after the wedding.

 

Where you have to be careful is that it is increasingly becoming common for families (and sometimes the girl) to use Sin Sot as a way to extract as much cash as possible out of the 'rich foreigner'.

 

I've heard of this 'grading system' where girls that have been married before, ex bar girls, older girls etc. are supposed to be entitled to less Sin Sot before. I don't know whether its also part of Thai culture or whether its something foreigners have made up or not but to me its abhorrent.  If the girl is good enough to marry she should be treated the same as anyone else - or do we grade how much we love someone?

 

If you are comfortable with Sin Sot in principle then its up to you, I'll just tell you how I handled it:

 

The future mother in law is the person to discuss Sin Sot with and if you can't speak Thai, find an independent Thai/Farang to hold discussions on your behalf.

 

My intended came from a relatively poor up country family but she had been working away in a factory on the Eastern Seaboard and sending money home for the previous 9 years. I asked my future MIL how much she wanted and if she expected the support she'd been getting from her daughter to continue after the marriage - she did and at that point she told me the amount she expected. I'm not going to say how much so as not to give the 'nay sayers' the opportunity to comment but it wasn't a huge amount. I told her that I understood that Sin Sot was part of Thai culture and that I respected that but I also told her that it was not part of my culture and I hoped she would also respect that.  Now, if you've been with your girl any length of time you will probably have learned that in Thailand, you can't be so direct in any type of negotiation - you have to go all around the houses, its expected.  That's actually what I did but I'm just shortening things. So I told the MIL that I would be prepared to pay 50% of the amount she'd asked to take account of each other's culture - she didn't like that at all (so much for respect).  I also told her that although we would continue to support her after we were married, the amount would have to come down as it was about time my intended's lazy, cheating 4 older brothers and sisters started paying their share too.  They had left it to my girl to support her mother for 9 years because she was single - well that was about to change.

 

A smile came across the MIL's face, I think she realised she was dealing with someone who wasn't going to be pushed around and I think she welcomed that.  I asked her if, when I married her daughter, I would be accepted as part of the family - she remained blank. I told her, that although my girl was the youngest of 5, her father being dead, I would expect to be considered as the head of the family and I would deal with the brothers and sisters. She then put me in my place and told me that the head of the family cannot live abroad and if I was ever going to be considered as such, it would not be until I moved to Thailand.  At that point my future brother in law chirped up that I was far richer than him, why should he support his mother?  I told him that he had no idea how rich I was and whatever, that did not absolve him from his duties as a son.

 

This question of future support is probably more important than the Sin Sot itself. You have to remember that there is no welfare state in Thailand and I believe the state pension is something like 900 baht per month - not sure on that.  Whatever, parents rely on their kids to support them in their old age - there is nothing else.

 

In the end my future MIL sent the brother in law on an errand and then told me that whatever amount we agreed on, it would all be returned to me after the wedding - all except the gold that is, provided I guaranteed her support. I agreed to that and we agreed the Sin Sot would be 50% of the amount she'd asked for.  I know from Thai friends that the amount I paid was actually less than would have been asked of a Thai man in the same situation so it seems she had taken account of my request for her to respect my culture.

 

The wedding took place and the Sin Sot was returned as promised which was just as well because the marriage only lasted a few months but that's a different story .

 

The point is, get all the facts of what will be expected of you in the future before you agree an amount.  If you don't agree a support package its most likley that your wife will give it behind your back - she doesn't have much choice really.

 

I guess what you really want to know is how much you should pay? There is no set amount but as a very rough guide, if your girl is from a poor family expect to pay between 0 and 200,000 baht + gold. Middle class - 200,000 to 500,000 baht + gold. If you are asked more than the upper end on both, you are probably being ripped off. Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near the upper amount. I very much doubt you are marrying a 'Hi-So' but the sky's the limit there.

 

As a pointer, the 2 Thai friends I mentioned earlier that had to save up for their Sin Sot paid 100,000, it wasn't given back immediately but the parents later put down the deposit on their first house for them.

 

Sorry for the long post but this is something that can have a serious effect on your future.

Edited May 7, 2018 by KhaoYai

[catman20]

6 hours ago, meechai said:

A couple of decades ago I was in your shoes

 

So I asked my future mother in-law (rest her soul) what was expected

They were poor farmers & she told me her daughter was not for sale but

should we marry she hoped I would take care of her daughter & hoped that we would be very healthy & happy together.

 

I knew then & there that this was a good family & I was not proved wrong.

 

Good Luck to you

 

nice post. are you still together ?

[grumbleweed]

8 hours ago, maprao said:

Married before with kids pay nothing.

I'd also be concerned with her employment history. Typically, bar girls are there to hunt farang. Only idiots of a special kind believe them when they say they do it to support their family.

Some may call it the ultimate "try before you buy," but in such cases, the cash flow should be in the opposite direction, unless you think it okay to buy food that someone has already chewed

[Ozybear]

7 hours ago, meechai said:

A couple of decades ago I was in your shoes

 

So I asked my future mother in-law (rest her soul) what was expected

They were poor farmers & she told me her daughter was not for sale but

should we marry she hoped I would take care of her daughter & hoped that we would be very healthy & happy together.

 

I knew then & there that this was a good family & I was not proved wrong.

 

Good Luck to you

 

Did the same. It was the sibblings pushing for it. I built mum a house instead. It was very much appreciated by all. 

[AYJAYDEE]

1 minute ago, grumbleweed said:

I'd also be concerned with her employment history. Typically, bar girls are there to hunt farang. Only idiots of a special kind believe them when they say they do it to support their family.

Some may call it the ultimate "try before you buy," but in such cases, the cash flow should be in the opposite direction, unless you think it okay to buy food that someone has already chewed

Generalization. I know many girls who specifically went to work in the bar to meet and marry a foreigner and emigrate! And the large majority of these marriages worked out well.

 

[yellowboat]

No

[brewsterbudgen]

Would you pay a dowry to wed the woman you love in your country of birth??  Sod this dowry b.s. and please dont try and excuse this Thai practice as something a Farang has to do.  

Not really relevant. A dowry is no longer part of most western marriage culture, while in different ways, it is still very much part of some Asian marriage cultures.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[BoganInParasite]

I paid roughly 200,000 baht in cash and 200,000 baht in gold for my 32 year old Thai nurse wife. We also allowed her family to keep the monies provided as wedding gifts, looked like another 200,000 baht. At the time my wife said her mother told her she would return the cash when we settled in Thailand and that is exactly what she did recently when we purchased land in northern Thailand. I'd described the family as low middle class, once dirt poor and living in a truck till my wife was five, now reasonably comfortable as a fish farmer and shopkeeper in a rural area near Bangkok.

 

[scoutman360]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

 

I guess what you really want to know is how much you should pay? There is no set amount but as a very rough guide, if your girl is from a poor family expect to pay between 0 and 200,000 baht + gold. Middle class - 200,000 to 500,000 baht + gold. If you are asked more than the upper end on both, you are probably being ripped off. Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near the upper amount. I very much doubt you are marrying a 'Hi-So' but the sky's the limit there.

 

As a pointer, the 2 Thai friends I mentioned earlier that had to save up for their Sin Sot paid 100,000, it wasn't given back immediately but the parents later put down the deposit on their first house for them.

 

I work amongst the middle class in Bangkok. I've been to 3 marriages, the sin was 100,000 baht. No more. The money returned after the wedding. I personally know a few Isaan country girls, who's sisters married poor Thai farmers. No sin sod (you can't get something from nothing). The farang extortion prices are laughable.

[Dmaxdan]

The dowry is, and probably always will be a serious tradition here in Thailand. As soon as the parents learn they have a baby girl it will be in the back of their minds that maybe one day she will marry.  I've been to lots of weddings here, Thais marrying Thais and it is always a big part of the ceremony, with the money beautifully displayed.. There maybe times that it is for show and the money is returned or it has been discussed before that it is not necessary but these would be the exceptions rather than the norm. In most cases the amount is negotiable. That is why the big amounts always hit the headlines.  For example I paid 40,000 baht about 10 years ago.

So basically if you are want to marry a Thai lady in Thailand but are not prepared to honor their traditions then to put simply you have no place marring a Thai, marry someone from your own culture. There maybe occasions where the bride's parents say they don't require money and that's fine but to openly refuse if they do because "It is not my culture" is like pointing a finger at her parents and saying "I have zero respect for you"   There are sometimes in life where personal opinions count for nothing and disagreeing with a another country's wedding traditions and customs is one of them.  Basically,  people who do make themselves look really rather ignorant. 

 

[Ulic]

Dowery, she comes with nothing, You mean Bride Price. Some get it back, minus wedding expenses.

Some get nothing back. Depends on so much. You will get all the information here. If she has been married

before or has kids, I say give nothing. The first guy paid the upfront lump sum and you will be making

the parent's retirement pension. 

 

[Dmaxdan]

The dowry is, and probably always will be a serious tradition here in Thailand. As soon as the parents learn they have a baby girl it will be in the back of their minds that maybe one day she will marry.  I've been to lots of weddings here, Thais marrying Thais and it is always a big part of the ceremony, with the money beautifully displayed.. There maybe times that it is for show and the money is returned or it has been discussed before that it is not necessary but these would be the exceptions rather than the norm. If it was the case where Thais don't pay a dowry but Farangs are expected to then I would understand peoples concerns, but that is a million miles from the truth. In most cases the amount is negotiable. That is why the big amounts always hit the headlines.  For example I paid 40,000 baht about 10 years ago, and had no problem with it what so ever....and I'm a long way from being a rich man

So basically if you are want to marry a Thai lady in Thailand but are not prepared to honor their traditions then to put simply you really need to look elsewhere and marry someone from your own culture. There maybe occasions where the bride's parents say they don't require money and that's fine but to openly refuse to pay just because "It is not my culture" is like pointing a finger at her parents and saying "I have zero respect for you"   There are sometimes in life where personal opinions count for nothing and disagreeing with a another country's wedding traditions and customs that have been handed down from generation to generation is one of them.  Basically,  people who do make themselves look really rather ignorant.  

 

[csabo]

Just do whatever is customary in your country. Oh.. You don't buy women for brides in your country? OK then go with that. Whores you gotta pay for though. 

[AYJAYDEE]

3 minutes ago, csabo said:

Just do whatever is customary in your country. Oh.. You don't buy women for brides in your country? OK then go with that. Whores you gotta pay for though. 

he's single in his country.

 

[PerkinsCuthbert]

I've been around about thirty years. Up till about fifteen years ago, the only times I heard sin sot mentioned - if it was mentioned at all - the amounts were in the few thousands or ten thousand or two. Oddly enough, the huge sums being talked about here, even allowing for inflation, only started to appear when the explosion in numbers of farang men living in and visiting Thailand really took off.

 

Coincidence?

[AYJAYDEE]

10 minutes ago, PerkinsCuthbert said:

I've been around about thirty years. Up till about fifteen years ago, the only times I heard sin sot mentioned - if it was mentioned at all - the amounts were in the few thousands or ten thousand or two. Oddly enough, the huge sums being talked about here, even allowing for inflation, only started to appear when the explosion in numbers of farang men living in and visiting Thailand really took off.

 

Coincidence?

well I saw them larger than that much before 15 years ago

 

[1FinickyOne]

10 minutes ago, PerkinsCuthbert said:

I've been around about thirty years. Up till about fifteen years ago, the only times I heard sin sot mentioned - if it was mentioned at all - the amounts were in the few thousands or ten thousand or two. Oddly enough, the huge sums being talked about here, even allowing for inflation, only started to appear when the explosion in numbers of farang men living in and visiting Thailand really took off.

 

Coincidence?

Tends to depend on the financial status of the family - - a Thai friend of mine, thai/thai had to build a 15MM baht home and this was about 15 years ago.... I have seen Thai/thai pay 1MM baht... 

[1FinickyOne]

39 minutes ago, Dmaxdan said:

The dowry is, and probably always will be a serious tradition here in Thailand. As soon as the parents learn they have a baby girl it will be in the back of their minds that maybe one day she will marry.  I've been to lots of weddings here, Thais marrying Thais and it is always a big part of the ceremony, with the money beautifully displayed.. There maybe times that it is for show and the money is returned or it has been discussed before that it is not necessary but these would be the exceptions rather than the norm. If it was the case where Thais don't pay a dowry but Farangs are expected to then I would understand peoples concerns, but that is a million miles from the truth. In most cases the amount is negotiable. That is why the big amounts always hit the headlines.  For example I paid 40,000 baht about 10 years ago, and had no problem with it what so ever....and I'm a long way from being a rich man

So basically if you are want to marry a Thai lady in Thailand but are not prepared to honor their traditions then to put simply you really need to look elsewhere and marry someone from your own culture. There maybe occasions where the bride's parents say they don't require money and that's fine but to openly refuse to pay just because "It is not my culture" is like pointing a finger at her parents and saying "I have zero respect for you"   There are sometimes in life where personal opinions count for nothing and disagreeing with a another country's wedding traditions and customs that have been handed down from generation to generation is one of them.  Basically,  people who do make themselves look really rather ignorant.  

 

5 star spot on - - [except not maybe - may be] - saved me from writing my rant. 

[meechai]

4 hours ago, catman20 said:

nice post. are you still together ?

Yes thank you !

Also she had a big smile when I read her your question

[totally thaied up]

6 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I've heard of this 'grading system' where girls that have been married before, ex bar girls, older girls etc. are supposed to be entitled to less Sin Sot before. I don't know whether its also part of Thai culture or whether its something foreigners have made up or not but to me its abhorrent.  If the girl is good enough to marry she should be treated the same as anyone else - or do we grade how much we love someone?

Is it part of Thai culture or not, to date, as much as I have seen a Thai pay for a divorced woman or a girl with a child might be a wedding ring and a few thousand baht. I have been to many, many weddings. Most on average I have seen on the table for a Thai is 30,000 baht and a baht or two of gold. Apart from attending a wedding of a major service station owner who gave away new cars to the family and had a million baht on show. 

 

I have not seen much bigger, yet I am hardly high-so.

 

Farangs are much different it seems. Mostly seen Sin Sot's between 200,000 and below and gold (one or two baht given). On consensus, good families will give it back. I have seen it on a few occasions of the family handing the money back over at the wedding feast to gain face.

 

For myself, I told the head of the family I was not paying. I said not my culture, I look after my wife; that is it. I will help them out but except that, I expect that I am to be included in decision-making processes in the family. The father had a drunken relative living nearby and paid his rent when he ran out of money. I told them to either piss him off or forget about everything. He has a job but was just a sponge and caused much drunken trouble after work for everyone.

 

The relative went.

 

My wife hated him (this relative) as he always sponged Lao Khao money from them. He has at the present time been gone for over two years.

 

The mother is Chinese and wanted Sin Sot.

 

I took her (my Mother-in-law) to the side, said the above, and she had a hate session for a few weeks but when the drunken slob was not showing up anymore and she was getting the rent money, ably her mind changed.

 

She has treated me after the marriage very well;  she even spent a week with me in Hospital looking after me with a few days in ICU recently (pneumonia) and when I came home weak as a kitten, she sat in a Lazboy reclining chair I bought for her, bringing me food and chiding her daughter for letting me get so sick, to begin with for the next week.

 

It was so funny to watch.

 

She is a good soul but is very old and sick now. I hope she can hang in there for a few more years.

 

We married at Amphur. We came home and had a few neighbors around. No flash party. My wife asked for nothing, but I gave her a baht of gold as well as to her Mum to surprise them.

 

I then went and got a large number of baht from my safe that I had smuggled into the house with no one knowing, put it on a plate and offered it to my Mother-in-law in front of everyone.

 

I prostrated before her on the floor. She just touched my head, said no and that was the end of that.

 

That satisfied her face value to her peers around her about her daughter. My Mother-in-law speaks Lana Thai but poorly. Most of her family have to speak Mandarin to her; she came from a very poor family 35 years ago in an arranged marriage and was not educated at all. Father is part Chinese.

 

So, there are different ways to go about it. That is how I did it. I bent to what they did really want, but controlled it and did it in my own way.

 

It has since worked out fine. Better than fine and yes, my wife is just a very ordinary fat girl and is now where near different to any other Thai or person in this world. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by totally thaied up