Thailand Really Sucks As A Place To Raise Kids

[berries]

Guesthouse, you speak a lot of sense. My only criticism is that you honoured Gummy with such a lengthy reply - it really was a nonsensical ramble which really only deserved to be ignored.

[garro]

I am not a dad as yet but we are expecting a little luk krung in August. Myself and my girlfreind (who is due to become my wife next week) are going to raise our child here in Thailand. I can see that there has been some very valid points made in this thread about the pros and cons of raising a child here but I stll think it is the better choice.

I have lived in thailand for about five years now; the last two and a half years in a very rural area. I also have a few years experience of teaching in Thailand at every school level; anuban, pratom, and mathyom in both city and up-country. I admit that there are many problems in the Thai education system but I feel that the most important element in a child's education is their family. If a child has parents who noy only encourage academic achievement but also value it (for example: letting their child see them read a book occasionally) then they too will value it. I also feel that the best educational resource a child has is their family.

I previously worked as a registered trauma nurse in Ireland as well as the NHS in England so perhaps have developed a jaundiced view of life in these countries. I see life as much more complicated there with little or no time for childhood. The young tend to feel allienated from adults and so show them no respect while many adults live in fear of children. I have really noticed this on my trips bak to Ireland; children and people in general appear far more happy in Thailand. This view is supported by the high incidence of teenage suicide and mental illness in both the UK and in Ireland, and I imagine in other western countries. I greatly admire the Thai focus on family and the support this provides.

Previous posts have mentioned the lack of activities for children here in Thailand. I have seen many children in Europe who despite having access to tons of activities are completely bored out of their minds. In my opinion the best activity a child can do is use their immagination.

My post may sound a bit naive, as I have not yet had a child, and maybe I will change my mind when the reality of raising one hits me. I don't think so though.

[devildog683]

I guess it depends on where you are in Thailand. Its pretty much the same for every country. In the USA, for example, raising kids in the rural Pennsylvania area is completely different from raising them in the slums of Philly.

[garro]

In regards to the point that a western education encourages people to think more for themselves. I am not so sure that the obsession in the West with individuality and thinking for yourself is such a great idea. It tends to breed self-obsessed people who spend their time trying to convince everyone how happy/miserable they are.

[Nawtilus]

Education is not the only issue here, many thing come into it of which is good and which is bad, should I stay or should I go etc.

My son is at a really good kindergatned school, one that openly promotes and teaches thinking for themselves and decision making for themsleves. Absolutley none of this thai follow everyone mentality, or he simply would not be there.

While I am happy for him at this school, his next school will be difficult to find, but if I can find something of similar values and good education standards etc, I will stay longer.

I also want to build things for them here, this may just become their home forever, so education here will be important for social and business reasons later on. Combined most certainly with a stint overseas for a year or 2 I would imagine.

Other things worry me far more than education here.

Health, hospitals etc for one. Just how long do you think it would take an ambulance to get to your child if he was sick or critically injured. Think of the traffic here and how many ambulances you have seen stuck in traffic. I often have horrible dreams of one of my kids laying at home after an accident, dying and waiting for an ambulance to get here to save their life.

In this country, I would bet my left testicle that kids (and others) die because of delays in emergancy treatments.

This kind of thing scares me a lot. I have found a first aid course for their mother and nanny to attend to help in such a situation a little bit at least.

[gbt71fa]

Having raised two children in the US up and through university (we’ll 4 months to go for the last one!!) and now with a partner in Thailand with a toddler I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this. About the job I did with my first two and about I’d approach it in a second go around (he’s not mine so I did have an opportunity to reflect on what I was signing up for). I’ve thought about schools and where we should live – and where I want to live. About culture, about opportunities, about all of that. And I think of the successful & happy people I know (in the whole sense) and the troubled ones. It just seems to me to come down to parenting. While the environment, friends, etc. are huge influences on a child it’s the parents (or family – single, extended, etc.) that steer them through this. I know some amazing people who have had very unconventional or tough upbringing – home schooling, traveling, poor, etc. who are quite OK. And others that had the best of everything and don’t make anything of their life (or are President of the US).

I’ve also come to realize how much I think is innate in the person. That’s a black box really.

Please do the rest of Americans a favor and DON'T return to the U.S. We would greatly appreciate it. Try to miss most of the upcoming elections as well.

[esprit]

I am not a dad as yet but we are expecting a little luk krung in August. Myself and my girlfreind (who is due to become my wife next week) are going to raise our child here in Thailand. I can see that there has been some very valid points made in this thread about the pros and cons of raising a child here but I stll think it is the better choice.

I have lived in thailand for about five years now; the last two and a half years in a very rural area. I also have a few years experience of teaching in Thailand at every school level; anuban, pratom, and mathyom in both city and up-country. I admit that there are many problems in the Thai education system but I feel that the most important element in a child's education is their family. If a child has parents who noy only encourage academic achievement but also value it (for example: letting their child see them read a book occasionally) then they too will value it. I also feel that the best educational resource a child has is their family.

I previously worked as a registered trauma nurse in Ireland as well as the NHS in England so perhaps have developed a jaundiced view of life in these countries. I see life as much more complicated there with little or no time for childhood. The young tend to feel allienated from adults and so show them no respect while many adults live in fear of children. I have really noticed this on my trips bak to Ireland; children and people in general appear far more happy in Thailand. This view is supported by the high incidence of teenage suicide and mental illness in both the UK and in Ireland, and I imagine in other western countries. I greatly admire the Thai focus on family and the support this provides.

Previous posts have mentioned the lack of activities for children here in Thailand. I have seen many children in Europe who despite having access to tons of activities are completely bored out of their minds. In my opinion the best activity a child can do is use their immagination.

My post may sound a bit naive, as I have not yet had a child, and maybe I will change my mind when the reality of raising one hits me. I don't think so though.

I commented very early on in this thread, my view being that with the good guidance of parents it matters not where you bring your kids up. Through that guidance forms the values associated with the role of the family and the bonding and love that will hopefully stay for life. My personnal opinion is that it is only through this example that the child will eventually leave the fold and hold those values dear to their heart, not only giveing respect for that initial guidance from their parents but also respecting and helping others.

I say this having an older family who have left the fold and, due to their Mothers bereavement too early in life, been fortunate enough to find and marry another so hence I have a youngster also.

Your post is music to my ears and I trust you will be as fortunate as bringing up your future kids as I have been and with your philsophy they will have the best of chances anywhere I'm sure.

Reading many of the previous posts I find great dissapointed in many of the responses. Some are clearly aimed at knocking the previous person, some are clearly written by folk with a "holyier than though" attitude, some with an obvious desire to pressure there kids into doing well based on their own perceived "high"standards and others who are downright insensitive to their host country.

I have no intention of knocking anybody specifically, negativity is too prevalent, but I can't help commenting that in many cases it appears the statements or inferences are "I want my child to do well". Well without appearing pious I would suspect that this sentiment would be common to all parents so it is a superfluous comment. I would just like to say that to do well is a relevant term taken as many as meaning achieving a high educational qualification and eventually make money. If my youngest grows up similar to my older child and go on to respect me also, and above all show respect and similarly give help to others I would consider then he has almost certainly done well, irrespective of his academic acheivements of financial gains. If he manages both it is a bonus, but respect and kindeness to your fellow human beings is the highest achievement in my book , but of course many will beg to differ hence the value of these forums to gather thoughts from others. We may not agree with many of the other person's opinions and attitudes but we should still respect that they have differant ideals to ones own perhaps.

[GuestHouse]

Let me pose another question.

Would you be willing to leave Thailand in order to improve the life of your child(ren).

I raise this question on two grounds, firstly, there are those like myself that feel that there un acceptable aspects of raising a child in Thailand. Secondly that things do change. Our observation has been that Thailand was fine as a home for our children when they were very young, but posed problems as they grew older.

I'd also like to add that 'Academic Achievement' and 'Kindness to our fellow human beings' are not mutually exclusive.

[qualtrough]

Having [snip] And others that had the best of everything and don’t make anything of their life (or are President of the US).

I’ve also come to realize how much I think is innate in the person. That’s a black box really.

Please do the rest of Americans a favor and DON'T return to the U.S. We would greatly appreciate it. Try to miss most of the upcoming elections as well.

gbt-We? Don't assume that all or even a majority of Americans share your feelings about the current president. I don't. P.S. I will return to the US whenever I please, thank you very much.

[esprit]

Let me pose another question.

Would you be willing to leave Thailand in order to improve the life of your child(ren).

I raise this question on two grounds, firstly, there are those like myself that feel that there un acceptable aspects of raising a child in Thailand. Secondly that things do change. Our observation has been that Thailand was fine as a home for our children when they were very young, but posed problems as they grew older.

I'd also like to add that 'Academic Achievement' and 'Kindness to our fellow human beings' are not mutually exclusive.

You would need to explain your interpretion of what improvement is. again it is a relevative word which means differant things to differant people. I have no issue with life here so would see no differance to my children wherever I live hence, as I expalianed previously, it matters not where children are brought up. That is my opinion and obviously from what you said, based on your own set of criteria Thailand was not the place for you. That's no problem, quite acceptable and understandable but please accept that your own criteria and standards may not reflect those of others so whereas you feel it is not ideal than others may simply because differant philosphys suit differant people. I would not want to tell people that mine are the correct ones and yours are wrong, all I am simply saying, and in response to the thread title, for me Thailand is an OK place hence my initial comment it does not matter where.

A very old friend of mine who has had a similar personnal life is living in Brazil. In fact he was working there for over 20 years and decided to retire there with his new family. I have been there on many occasions for business and it is not my cup of tea, in my personal view too dangerous for children, but he insists it is the perfect place for the upbringing of his new children. So a similar situation really I do not judge him by my own standards and conversly me by his own and that is as it should be.

I must refer to the topic subject matter and say that it would be better for everyone to state whether they think Thailand is or is not a good place for them and why rather than to wade in with personnal argument as to why they consider others are wrong in their choice as if theirs is the only view one should hold. I am not being critical here but as I mentioned before it is an observation I have made and it dissappoints me to see it.

Change happens everywhere and many of my buddies say that they no longer think that is good to bring up children in the UK inner cities now. Well that is their opinion which I respect but I suspect that there are still an equal number of of people who have exactly the opposite opinion based on a totally differant set of criteria. Let us not be the judge on who is right and who is wrong.

And of course 'Academic Achievement' and 'Kindness to our fellow human beings' are not mutually exclusive, I would think most sensible people would accept that as obvious, as is becoming financially well off. It is just that the set of standards that I live by do not put them in the order that you have stated. For you it may be differant, that's fine and I would not dream of saying you are wrong in this, it is just that differant people live by a differant set of standards and it is wrong to judge who is right and who is wrong. If your children turn out in manner you wish and mine the same that's great we will all be satisfied that we have done the best for our kids albeit with differant mind sets and philosophies.

[GuestHouse]

It seems we are in agreement on one thing, since you said.

It is just that the set of standards that I live by do not put them in the order that you have stated. For you it may be differant, that's fine and I would not dream of saying you are wrong in this, it is just that differant people live by a differant set of standards and it is wrong to judge who is right and who is wrong.

And I already said.

That is our choice based on our experience, observation and against our standards and expectations. - Everyone differs in these things.

The OP asks that we discuss, and I believe we have done that, putting asside the childish personal attacks I've had for taking a different view, I think this has been a good discussion. It seems most contributors have thought about the issues and continue to do so. Sadly, inside and outside of Thailand that is not always the case and I think we all agree that it is uncaring parents who are the greatest risk to children.

[Austhaied]

One only has to look at the discourteousness of school children in the UK or US to understand that perhaps there are advantages having a child educated here in Thailand. Most international schools still impart a degree of discilpine , now totally lost both in the UK and US you only need to look at the juvenile crime figures there.

Further why is it then that Paedophiles turning up in Thailand or Cambodia always come from Western countries rather than the other way round ? You really think that is safe to allow your children to be brought up were those perverts are free to roam? Why read the latest UK press, 325 convicted Paedophiles are free to roam around as the UK government let them in and don't know where they are - call that safe?

Or rather you love the American system so much where every month some nutter murders children in their schools because half the nation thinks it a jolly good thing to have guns!

Strange that some people have such a perverse veiw of safety.

To balance things a little then why is that Thais profess there love of children yet bundle them into the back of a pick-up where they can easily get tossed out , and do during an accident. One of the highest child, traffic mortality rates in the world !

As for health then sure some of the facilities in the US are the best in the world - but then they need to be as it is the world junk food centre so you need those facilities. Look at the obesity rates in US and Europe, call that healthy.

The UK also has the highest under 16 birth rate in the western world - call that good education?

The fact of the matter is, it does not matter where you bring up children, given good guidance and a lot of love from their parents, valuable assistance, tutoring and mentoring by good teachers they will grow up to be responsible adults wherever you are. Shove them out of the house at 8 am , don't see them 'till 6pm because both parents are to materialistic that they are working then you are heading for trouble wherever you live.

Depends on what set of values you are judging what is good or what is bad.

Dave

That is said from experience of living, working and bringing up children on 2 continents.

Couldn't have said it better myself.. Nice one Dave, spot on...

Edited February 2, 2007 by Austhaied

[singa-traz]

Let me pose another question.

Would you be willing to leave Thailand in order to improve the life of your child(ren).

I raise this question on two grounds, firstly, there are those like myself that feel that there un acceptable aspects of raising a child in Thailand. Secondly that things do change. Our observation has been that Thailand was fine as a home for our children when they were very young, but posed problems as they grew older.

I'd also like to add that 'Academic Achievement' and 'Kindness to our fellow human beings' are not mutually exclusive.

Could you elaborate on the rational for your decision?

Was it a teenager, girl, living in a Thai community?

To answer your question, Yes, if needed I would be willing to leave Thailand in order to improve the life of my kids.

Right now, I came to Thailand for this same reason.

[qualtrough]

[snip]

As for these doom and gloom reports of Kids in the UK. Last year I had the privilege (and it was a privilege) to visit 8 different schools in the UK promoting engineering as a career. These where all comprehensives, the children we met all between the ages of 16 and 18.

[snip]

And that to me is the biggest danger of raising a child in Thailand – Having your daughter raised as dolly for irresponsible men, having your son raised as exactly that irresponsible person you don’t want for your daughter and having Son or Daughter trained (I don't say educated) to do as they are told without thinking, and certainly without asking questions.

You might want to take a gander at the following report on the BBC site today. I have removed the URL per forum rules. Looks like the UK pretty much sucks in comparison to othe EU countries, ranking in the bottom third in this study for education. Very low on a number of other points as well.

Unicef report: Key points at-a-glance

The UK has come bottom of a Unicef league table for child well-being across 21 industrial countries.

The study looked at a total of 40 indicators in six categories. Here is a summary of some of the report's key findings.

REPORT SUMMARY

#

European countries dominate the top half of the overall league table, with the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Finland claiming the top four places.

#

The UK and United States are in the bottom third of the rankings for five of the six categories covered. The six categories are material well-being, family and peer relationships, health and safety, behaviour and risks, and children's own sense of well-being (educational and subjective).

# No country features in the top third of the rankings for all six dimensions of child well-being, although the Netherlands and Sweden come close to achieving this.

MATERIAL WELL-BEING

# Child poverty remains above the 15% mark in the three southern European countries (Portugal, Spain, Italy) and in three Anglophone countries (the US, the UK, and Ireland).

#

There is no obvious relationship between levels of child well-being and GDP per capita. The Czech Republic, for example, achieves a higher overall rank for child well-being than several much wealthier countries.

# A total of nine countries - all in northern Europe - have brought child poverty rates below 10%.

FAMILY AND PEER RELATIONSHIPS

# Approximately 80% of children in the countries under review are living with both parents. This ranges from more than 90% in Greece and Italy to less than 70% in the UK and 60% in the US.

# Even in the lowest ranked countries, almost two-thirds of children still regularly eat the main meal of the day with their families, with France and Italy maintaining the tradition most of all.

HEALTH AND SAFETY

# Fewer than one in every 10,000 young people die before the age of 19 as a result of accident, murder, suicide or violence.

# European countries occupy the top half of the report's child health and safety table, with the top five places claimed by the four Nordic countries and the Netherlands.

# Infant mortality rates range from under 3% per 1,000 births in Iceland and Japan, to over 6% per 1,000 in Hungary, Poland and the US.

BEHAVIOUR AND RISKS

# The overall OECD league table of young people's risk behaviours sees the UK at the foot of the rankings by "a considerable distance".

# Risk behaviours considered in the study include smoking, being drunk, using cannabis, fighting and bullying, and sexual behaviour.

# Only about a third of young people eat fruit daily.

# Only about a third of young people exercise for an hour or more on five or more days a week - youths take most exercise in Ireland, Canada and the US, and the least in Belgium and France.

EDUCATIONAL WELL-BEING

# Finland, Canada, Australia, and Japan head this particular table in the report.

# The UK is rated in the bottom third of the table for educational well-being.

# Four southern European countries - Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal - occupy the bottom four places.

SUBJECTIVE WELL-BEING

# Children's subjective sense of well-being appears to be markedly higher in the Netherlands, Spain, and Greece and markedly lower in Poland and the UK.

# Approximately 80% of young people consider their health to be good or excellent in every OECD country except the UK.

# The Netherlands, Norway and Austria, are at the head of the table with over a third of their schoolchildren admitting to "liking school a lot".

Story from BBC NEWS:

Published: 2007/02/14 02:08:15 GMT

[thaihome]

All I can say is I have several colleagues that have been in Thailand for over 10 years and have raised their kids here. These are both Thai-Farang and Farang-Farang marriages. At least 3 of the kids have gone on to prestigious universities in the US, so obvious the education was available, just a matter of if was taken advantage of. Others are pretty wasted (if you know what I mean).

No doubt mixed results, but as the kids all went to the same school (ISB) it would seem it up to the parenting. If you have the money, the environment in Thailand can be very good to raise kids.

TH

Edited February 15, 2007 by thaihome

[gummy]

[snip]

As for these doom and gloom reports of Kids in the UK. Last year I had the privilege (and it was a privilege) to visit 8 different schools in the UK promoting engineering as a career. These where all comprehensives, the children we met all between the ages of 16 and 18.

[snip]

And that to me is the biggest danger of raising a child in Thailand – Having your daughter raised as dolly for irresponsible men, having your son raised as exactly that irresponsible person you don't want for your daughter and having Son or Daughter trained (I don't say educated) to do as they are told without thinking, and certainly without asking questions.

You might want to take a gander at the following report on the BBC site today. I have removed the URL per forum rules. Looks like the UK pretty much sucks in comparison to othe EU countries, ranking in the bottom third in this study for education. Very low on a number of other points as well.

Unicef report: Key points at-a-glance

The UK has come bottom of a Unicef league table for child well-being across 21 industrial countries.

The study looked at a total of 40 indicators in six categories. Here is a summary of some of the report's key findings.

REPORT SUMMARY

#

European countries dominate the top half of the overall league table, with the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Finland claiming the top four places.

#

The UK and United States are in the bottom third of the rankings for five of the six categories covered. The six categories are material well-being, family and peer relationships, health and safety, behaviour and risks, and children's own sense of well-being (educational and subjective).

# No country features in the top third of the rankings for all six dimensions of child well-being, although the Netherlands and Sweden come close to achieving this.

MATERIAL WELL-BEING

# Child poverty remains above the 15% mark in the three southern European countries (Portugal, Spain, Italy) and in three Anglophone countries (the US, the UK, and Ireland).

#

There is no obvious relationship between levels of child well-being and GDP per capita. The Czech Republic, for example, achieves a higher overall rank for child well-being than several much wealthier countries.

# A total of nine countries - all in northern Europe - have brought child poverty rates below 10%.

FAMILY AND PEER RELATIONSHIPS

# Approximately 80% of children in the countries under review are living with both parents. This ranges from more than 90% in Greece and Italy to less than 70% in the UK and 60% in the US.

# Even in the lowest ranked countries, almost two-thirds of children still regularly eat the main meal of the day with their families, with France and Italy maintaining the tradition most of all.

HEALTH AND SAFETY

# Fewer than one in every 10,000 young people die before the age of 19 as a result of accident, murder, suicide or violence.

# European countries occupy the top half of the report's child health and safety table, with the top five places claimed by the four Nordic countries and the Netherlands.

# Infant mortality rates range from under 3% per 1,000 births in Iceland and Japan, to over 6% per 1,000 in Hungary, Poland and the US.

BEHAVIOUR AND RISKS

# The overall OECD league table of young people's risk behaviours sees the UK at the foot of the rankings by "a considerable distance".

# Risk behaviours considered in the study include smoking, being drunk, using cannabis, fighting and bullying, and sexual behaviour.

# Only about a third of young people eat fruit daily.

# Only about a third of young people exercise for an hour or more on five or more days a week - youths take most exercise in Ireland, Canada and the US, and the least in Belgium and France.

EDUCATIONAL WELL-BEING

# Finland, Canada, Australia, and Japan head this particular table in the report.

# The UK is rated in the bottom third of the table for educational well-being.

# Four southern European countries - Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal - occupy the bottom four places.

SUBJECTIVE WELL-BEING

# Children's subjective sense of well-being appears to be markedly higher in the Netherlands, Spain, and Greece and markedly lower in Poland and the UK.

# Approximately 80% of young people consider their health to be good or excellent in every OECD country except the UK.

# The Netherlands, Norway and Austria, are at the head of the table with over a third of their schoolchildren admitting to "liking school a lot".

Story from BBC NEWS:

Published: 2007/02/14 02:08:15 GMT

Exactly and that only goes to bear out what I have said in previous posts. Of course some of them where removed as apparently I upset a few people for stating a few home truths proven by my ban. I will now be interested to read how those so eloquent and pious few go about disputing UNICEF's conclusions. I suspect that judging from some of their posts they are so far away on "cloud", pleasantly referred to as "Cuckoo Land", the findings will sail totally over their heads as the understanding of "well being" to them is achieving the targets that their parents set for them rather than wholly considering the well being of the child.

As I said initially it does not really matter where, it is the guidance of parents that are more important and perhaps that is another reason why the Netherlands topped the bill as this is a quote from that same article:--

"Much of this, he says, comes from the relationship that Dutch parents have with their children. And from the fact that less pressure is put on them at school"

Edited February 15, 2007 by gummy

[Khun Jean]

# No country features in the top third of the rankings for all six dimensions of child well-being, although the Netherlands and Sweden come close to achieving this.

I am from the Netherlands, my nephew is from Sweden. We both have children in the range 3-8.

This conclusion is valid outside the main cities. In the cities it is just a mess. In the Netherlands we have 'black' and 'white' schools. Should say enough. In Sweden you get lazy people (my nephews words) because everything is taken care off. It starts in the school. For children Alcohol is the biggest concern in Sweden, drugs in the Netherlands.

Independent of eachother we both decided that our own countries are not the best places for our kids. I lived in Thailand a few years, and although it is great for young children, when they are of school going age it is my opinion it is much better in a western country.

As almost everyone is comparing with the UK and US, it might help to consider other countries when comparing to Thailand .

We are now in Austria, i am close to Villach and Klagenfurt. My nephew close to Salzburg. Big cities here have the same problems.

Both our impressions are that it is a much better environment for our children (families).

[bangkokian]

I'd say avoid raising kids in big cities if you can. Bangkok was a much happier and safer place when I was 10, and getting on public buses was a pleasure inspite of the traffic then. Anyway, the transitory years before the arrival of the BTS and MRT were the worst. I'd say there are more activities for children and youth in Bkk than ever before, but spontaneity is rare.

[bangkokian]

In regards to the point that a western education encourages people to think more for themselves. I am not so sure that the obsession in the West with individuality and thinking for yourself is such a great idea. It tends to breed self-obsessed people who spend their time trying to convince everyone how happy/miserable they are.

-- I have to agree with you on this.... As a college student in the U.S. of A., I almost drove myself crazy with self-obsession. No offense, but my Taiwanese friend and I noticed that Asian-Americans suffer from this self-obsessive infliction most severely. So perhaps, Asians should be most concerned about raising their kids in Uncle Sam's land. I'm not talking about academic performances and all. Anyway, maybe it's not going to be as bad for the younger generations of the "globalized" era.

[bangkokian]

No public playgrounds around or very few with crappy and old swing sets.

Trying to cross the street with your kids is a joke as your average driver is a total moron who could care less about letting a person with a child cross.

There is always the difference between rural and urban.

The little girl we take care of (my wife's niece) cycles 2km home from school on her own (unless one of the dogs has gone to meet her). Then she goes into the rice fields to catch frogs, or grasshoppers, or whatever. The she climbs her favourite tree in our garden to find the sweet berries growing there.

Later she helps prepare the evening meal, then afterwards does her homework on the floor. Then a bit of TV (no, not that one, television!). She might take me to see the stars, or the moon, or a particularly large mantis on the wall; or she will catch a grasshopper and bring it to me to see. Then, it's bedtime, and the next morning her magical day starts all over again.

Cheers,

Mike

That's what I've imagined as a healthy childhood....How nice to learn that it can still be true!

[bangkokian]

Remembering my own youth, I'm not entirely sure if Thai society is any more sex-obsessed than any other society, but women's rights at least here are far behind the curve of most Western nations.

--As much as I have suffered the malady of self-obsession during my college years in uncle Sam's land, I've become more aware of rights in theory and practice.

It's possible to get a quality secondary education here, but you have to be careful about it and it depends a lot more on parenting and the individual child. International schools are not always the best choices.

I've had a number of Indian private students (Hindus and Moslems) who were studying at the CHRISTIAN schools because, although they could easily afford the true international places, they perceived them as being very loose in regards to sex and drugs. From what I've seen of students from such schools around Bangkok, I'm not particularly impressed with their apparent education, attitude, or behavior.

--International schools can be so unhealthily stratified by CLASS, and I don't mean grade levels.

For tertiary education, it would be better for most foreigners to have their children go abroad, for a variety of reasons- and that can be expensive for most people, even on salaries that are good by Thai standards.

--It can be cheaper to go abroad!

Bang...

"Steven"

[madcatlady]

I'm married to a Thai 'village boy' who had to leave school at the age of 12 for financial reasons - he was the eighth of nine kids! He's now 34 years old, employed as a tour guide and, for the most part, happy with his lot. He's intelligent, well-read and entirely self-taught in English and various tribal languages.

I was educated at a good grammar school in the UK but never made it to university for various reasons. I worked hard and made a good career for myself but never felt particularly happy in the UK. I decided to travel around Asia, met my man and settled here three years ago. We're now planning to have a child.

I have many farang female friends with 'luuk khrung' who are asking themselves whether Thailand is the right place to bring up their kids, especially considering the level of education available here. But I think that there are so many other factors to consider.

I live in a village 10 kms outside Chiang Mai. The air is clean, we have a big garden, and the village kids are all friendly. There is virtually no traffic, loads of space for the kids to play in, and lots of happy willing neighbours who are just begging us to have kids. My sister-in-law lives 5 mins from me and has already offered to help out! If I compare this situation with my living arrangements in the UK - small terraced house, postage stamp sized back garden, busy streets, polluted air, little contact with neighbours, crime etc - I feel that Thailand comes out tops.

My working situation is different here. I work a few hours a week as a private tutor and it provides me enough to live on. In the UK I worked a stressful 50-60 hour week in order to afford to pay my mortgage, bills etc. Not much time left to spend raising a child, is there?

As for the education systems - I was the product of a really good education but my career success was down to my own hard work and determination too. The same goes for my husband with a good job despite his limited education. (There are plenty of guys in his village who never left and are still earning 120 baht a day as field hands.) I hope that we could instil these core values in any child of ours. But I wouldn't want to put the level of stress onto a child of mine that I went through trying to please my parents who demanded high marks in everything. Kids are entitled to a childhood too.

I've worked in a Thai village school and a posh international school in the city. The level of

education available to the kids in the international school might have been higher but the level of interest wasn't. They were more interested in comparing mobile phones and swapping glossy magazines! Maybe I'm romanticising it but the village kids seemed to have more interest in their education because they knew the hardship their parents went through to pay for it. There was little or no bullying in the village school either - something that seems to be on the increase in Western schools.

And as for individualism - I have plenty of Thai friends who broke free of the shackles of rote-learning and are well-adjusted adults with minds of their own. It's true that they still are uncomfortable with asserting their authority when dealing with officialdom but that could be the case with many Westerners too. They just seem a lot happier than us navel-gazing lot. I was taught to think for myself at an early age but can't help wondering if I'm in danger of thinking just a little bit too much. It's certainly a criticism that's levelled at me by my Thai friends and seems to be a Western disease.

There are so many things to consider when raising a child and trying to figure out what constitutes an ideal childhood. I don't think that education is the be-all and end-all.

LOS has so many great things about it that I would be happy raising my children here.

MCL

[Livinginexile]

Interesting topic

I have a 10 mth old son and I would really like for him to have the best of both worlds but at this point not sure how to achieve that.

I'm thinking about early education in Thailand and from 8 up in Australia.

One important thing I would like him to have is fluency in both Thai and English.

Thoughts fellow members?

[thaigene2]

I agree on the most part .

No public playgrounds around or very few with crappy and old swing sets.

Trying to cross the street with your kids is a joke as your average driver is a total moron who could care less about letting a person with a child cross.

The school system is a joke and I think the term "Thai Education" is an oxymoron, even if you're paying for private school.

As much I disliked living in the USA after discovering LOS as a single man , may well end up back there for the sake of my son.

Yes....it looks more lile that for our family too. And the visa, property hassles, chance of a looming battle as rich thais fighting among themselves, etc, all helps make the decision easier to make.

I want to run around in a park with my kids. I want them to learn to skate and play hockey, build snowmen and see a 'real' christmas. But most of all, I want them to learn what life is really like, without all the bowing and scraping required in Thai society (but I don't mean they shouldn't learn manners or worry about offending the feelings of others - these are great Thai qualities). However, I also don't want them to sit around playing computer games after school and turning into the fat little morons I see in the Soi..

Mostly I want them to learn to question "Why" things happen or work...instead of just learning the emphasis on "How" (e.g. to copy things..)

I agree..it's probably time to think the unthinkable and bear the unbearable - on behalf of my kids. At least til they are around 12 or 13. Then it might be a good idea to actually move back to LOS..to re-learn manners, their Thai language, and to look for opportunities that their dual-language and heritage may offer in Thailand that they would have trouble finding in the west.

Easier said than done though if you are a salary-slave.

Edited March 1, 2007 by thaigene2

[gummy]

I agree on the most part .

No public playgrounds around or very few with crappy and old swing sets.

Trying to cross the street with your kids is a joke as your average driver is a total moron who could care less about letting a person with a child cross.

The school system is a joke and I think the term "Thai Education" is an oxymoron, even if you're paying for private school.

As much I disliked living in the USA after discovering LOS as a single man , may well end up back there for the sake of my son.

Yes....it looks more lile that for our family too. And the visa, property hassles, chance of a looming battle as rich thais fighting among themselves, etc, all helps make the decision easier to make.

I want to run around in a park with my kids. I want them to learn to skate and play hockey, build snowmen and see a 'real' christmas. But most of all, I want them to learn what life is really like, without all the bowing and scraping required in Thai society (but I don't mean they shouldn't learn manners or worry about offending the feelings of others - these are great Thai qualities). However, I also don't want them to sit around playing computer games after school and turning into the fat little morons I see in the Soi..

Mostly I want them to learn to question "Why" things happen or work...instead of just learning the emphasis on "How" (e.g. to copy things..)

I agree..it's probably time to think the unthinkable and bear the unbearable - on behalf of my kids. At least til they are around 12 or 13. Then it might be a good idea to actually move back to LOS..to re-learn manners, their Thai language, and to look for opportunities that their dual-language and heritage may offer in Thailand that they would have trouble finding in the west.

Easier said than done though if you are a salary-slave.

You may be surprised to learn that those "fat little morons" as you describe may, just may, also appear in many other nations. Lets just guess now how many people can answer this question; What is the nation with the highest percentage of obese children and adults ?

[thaigene2]

And as for individualism - I have plenty of Thai friends who broke free of the shackles of rote-learning and are well-adjusted adults with minds of their own. It's true that they still are uncomfortable with asserting their authority when dealing with officialdom but that could be the case with many Westerners too. They just seem a lot happier than us navel-gazing lot. I was taught to think for myself at an early age but can't help wondering if I'm in danger of thinking just a little bit too much. It's certainly a criticism that's levelled at me by my Thai friends and seems to be a Western disease.

Glad you're happy here madcatlady. You have several interesting points. But the quote above needs a challenge. I'd suggest to you that your husband's friends who, like most of the rest of the country are on less than 200 baht per day, are products of NOT being taught to think for themselves.

It's often been argued that Thais had their country snatched from under their noses by a group of Asian migrants who saw the opportunity (the Thais were sleeping) to cash in on the mai-pen-rai attitude. Those same people now tell the Thai majority 'don't worry just listen to me' they say 'I'll look after you" - Wasn't that a favorite Thaksin phrase? And he wasn't the first to use it. Look at the Pooyais...they don't send their kids to your village school. They send their kids to school in the West. Why? Maybe they want to catch that Western disease. So they can then come back and say "don't worry, I'll look after you..I have a job in my factory that pays 210 Baht per day..aren't you lucky...you see I am looking after you."

[thaigene2]

You may be surprised to learn that those "fat little morons" as you describe may, just may, also appear in many other nations. Lets just guess now how many people can answer this question; What is the nation with the highest percentage of obese children and adults ?

No I'm not surprised. I agree with your point 100%. But, actually, I think the answer to your question is China (10% I recall) - though I'm sure the US may come a close 2nd.

[JimsKnight]

I have to say I realized more how dangerous and unhealthy Thailand can be since having kids. In my home country, kids could play outside in pretty safe conditions, for sure safe from traffic, and the air and overall environment would be cleaner and less hazardous. Far less to worry from cars, motorcycles, dogs, or generally unsafe environments.

Also there's not a lot of places around where you can take young kids to play that are healthy and safe. Sure there's shopping center playgrounds and the like, but overall there seems far less 'family recreation' spots compared to Western countries.

Discuss.

If you are Thai and have thai kids its brilliant for them. But if you have white kids and are a farang then forget raising kids here, the thai ways are too different if your expecting a western style upbringing.

[samran]

Interesting topic

I have a 10 mth old son and I would really like for him to have the best of both worlds but at this point not sure how to achieve that.

I'm thinking about early education in Thailand and from 8 up in Australia.

One important thing I would like him to have is fluency in both Thai and English.

Thoughts fellow members?

That is the same strategy that we are looking at taking.

I've only seen it with Thai kids, but quite a few people I've met now in Adulthood were sent off to school in the UK or Australia at age 8 or 9. Of course, they came back to Thailand on the holidays so spent 2-3 months per year here.

This type of exposure to both meant that their Thai and English are both flawless. We are thinking of taking the same course, though we might think about going back when the little one hits high school.

[berries]

Ideally, I would like to stay in Thailand. I am on an expat package which affords our family a decent lifestyle - probably better than we'd have in the UK. I love having a nanny to help with the kids. It's great being able to take your kids anywhere without worrying that they're not welcome. There are loads of sport, art and music clubs for kids that are much more affordable than in the UK. There seem to be less problems with drugs and children seem to have a better attitude towards family. And I love valet parking - if you've got two little ones that is reason enough to live in a country! Having said all that, if you have a child who has Thai nationality then their future prospects in this country are exactly the same as all other Thais - not that great. I know so many highly educated Thais - International schools, Master Degrees in English speaking countries - and they still come back here and get jobs paying them 20 or 30,000 baht a month. My kids do go to an international school here but if I wanted to send them back to the UK for university then you're looking at up to 15,000 UK pounds a year as an overseas student (you need to be resident for 3 years prior to application to get home student fees). I've got two kids very close together in age so that's up to 30,000 pounds a year for four years - impossible. But then to send them to univeristy here really would limit them to living here - Thai degrees even from the best unis don't count for much overseas. If I only consider myself, I'd stay here, when I think long term for my kids - I'll go home.

Edited March 9, 2007 by berries