Passport switching in the air - be aware.

[NanLaew]

I have two, valid passports which is allowed by my country due to the nature of my work where frequent travel and getting work visas for the next assignment is greatly enhanced by having a second passport available rather than the one I am in-country with. I have had these for maybe 25 years already, renewed multiple times without issue as long as I can maintain proof of this need. To stop one passport filling up faster than the other, I flip them on re-entry to Thailand. I have been doing this for maybe 18 years already.

 

Last Thursday, I returned to Suvarnabhumi from a months work in a neighboring country and presented my second valid UK passport for a standard visa-exempt entry. The IO took a while flipping back and forth through the half-full passport before asking if I had another passport. I said yes and presented him with the first valid UK passport that has a retirement extension (RE) in it. More flipping back and forth before he flagged down a supervisor. She asked me why I had two passports and I said because it an entitlement of my nationality but I could tell this 'entitlement' explanation didn't register. She asked me if I wanted to continue with the visa-exempt entry and initially I said yes but then she asked me why I don't ask the embassy to cancel the other passport, holding up the passport with the RE. Sensing a red flag here, I asked if the RE in my first passport would be invalidated if I used the visa-exempt entry on my second passport. No direct yes or no so I said I would use the first passport with the RE for this entry. The IO was still argumentative and making much of the fact that I have a 'wife in Udon' and that he could see consecutive exit and re-entry over the past 6 months across both passports. I explained to the supervisor that typically when planning only a short stay in LOS, I use a visa-exempt entry in the second passport and when I am planning a longer stay, I use the first passport with the Retirement extension, been that way for years.

 

End of about 20 minutes with her mostly arguing with the IO who didn't like (or maybe didn't understand) anything he saw in my passports or on his screens, she said to me, "We can see all your history" and that I can only use the passport with the Retirement extension from now on. I attempted to find out if this was a new requirement or enforcement of an old law but thought better of it since if it is an old law, then it may look like I am a shining example of how arbitrary their immigration procedures have been enforced; no point in contributing to anyone's loss of face especially when I am still 'air side' eh? Anyway, I was eventually stamped in with the correct length of permission to stay as my RE. The supervisor had already departed and my apology to the IO after he gave me back my passport was totally rebuffed.

 

There has been some debate on this forum whether passports are linked in Thai IO computers. I have always thought yes they are but it appears there's no active need for that linkage to be questioned or checked. The fact that the stroppy IO was the one mentioning (in Thai) to the supervisor that I have a wife in Udon only confirms that my entire immigration history is linked and now available to IO's since I changed from Marriage Extension to RE several years ago. It may have been linked and already available to IO's but maybe something recently has been 'plugged in' on their databases or the IO's flagged to check on people arriving that have multiple current and valid passports.

 

The only recent change in my circumstances that may have triggered this "check for other passport" request is late last year, I did a short job offshore Gulf of Thailand where I had a Non O visa issued in the second passport so that my Thai employer could get the WP. I did this as my first passport has the RE and I cannot work on that type of extension.

 

Anyway, no more passport flips in Saigon on KL for me.

Edited May 14, 2018 by NanLaew

[stevenl]

Intere4sting read.

 

I don't think many people use 2 passports for entering the same country. Didn't know the visa and entry were passport related and not person related.

[ubonjoe]

The extension, re-entry permit stamps and etc are all in one passport. All of the records of them are linked to that passport. You have to use that passport for entry to the country.

 

[bkk6060]

Not related I guess but just a story last month when I came into LAX the IO said to me "where is your other passport".

Uhh, what?

Yes, she said the system shows I have 2 passports.

I don't and I made it clear and told her the matter should be looked into by them.  It was super busy she just looked at me and shook her head and told me to go through while continuing to stare at her monitor.

Maybe some fraud or something not sure what is up.   

[Suradit69]

18 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I made it clear and told her the matter should be looked into by them. 

I'm sure they leapt into action after receiving your instructions.

 

20 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

she just looked at me and shook her head 

There you go.

[007 RED]

OP.....

 

Having two (or more) passports is not unusual these days.  Many people do have dual nationality whilst others need a second passport to allow them to enter two countries who will deny entry if they see a passport stamp from the other country.

 

Most immigrations systems throughout the world (including Thailand) have for many years been able to match the holders of multiple passports.

 

Machine Readable Travel Documents (MRTD) were originally introduced in the late 1980s.  However, they did not become mandatory under UN rules until 2005.  MRTD allow the IO to place the photo page onto a scanner which then reads the information at the bottom of the page between <<<< >>>>.

 

When the Immigration database detects that the passport number is not known to it, the system automatically does a search based upon:  Type of Document; Country Code; Gender; Date of Birth; Family name; First Name(s).

 

If the system finds a match based upon the above mentioned criterion, it will display your photo on the IO’s screen that was taken when you last used the other passport to enter the Kingdom.  The IO then confirms that the information presented to him/her is you and the two passports are then permanently linked thus enabling the IO to see your complete record of entries/exits, types of visas, extensions, refusals, bans etc. etc.

 

FYI…. The search only takes a couple of seconds and the system is also more than 80% capable of matching when people change their names.

 

From your post, I would suspect that because your ‘second’ passport has most of your Visa Exempt stamps in it, this may have been initially ‘flagged’ up on the IOs screen.  He/she then noticed that you had a second passport with an RE.  Hence the questions as to why you needed a VE instead of using the RE.

 

As you have indicated in your post, I would suggest that you just stick to using the passport with the RE in it.  Less confusing for the IO (bless them).

[DoctorG]

15 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Having two (or more) passports is not unusual these days.  Many people do have dual nationality whilst others need a second passport to allow them to enter two countries who will deny entry if they see a passport stamp from the other country.

Whilst this is undoubtedly correct (I too have passports from 2 different countries) I would hazard that, as in the OP's case, having 2 valid passports from the same country is much rarer.

[Baerboxer]

I think that they were making the point that having been granted an extension to stay and purchased a re-entry permit (take it you have) then that's what you should use. Not change over to visa exempt in a different passport whenever you fancy - or to try and avoid the expense of a multiple re-entry.

 

They might question your need for an extension if you push it. Learn, comply, move on. Keep it simple ......

[stat]

I also have 2 Passports from same country and used them to apply for METV back in 2011 in my home country Germany. Changed them in-air coming back to TH same day in the evening . IO was looking at my second passport a bit longer then usual but then allowed me to proceed (was in 2011).

[topt]

33 minutes ago, DoctorG said:

Whilst this is undoubtedly correct (I too have passports from 2 different countries) I would hazard that, as in the OP's case, having 2 valid passports from the same country is much rarer.

It is quite common actually for the reasons the OP stated. If you have to travel to several, say African, countries on one trip at relatively short notice then obtaining the relevant visas in time can be logistically difficult. 

I used to know a number of people in this situation and it has been discussed on TV before.

[55Jay]

It is useful to have 2 passports.  I had 2 for many years - an official government p/p and a regular tourist.  Government one was often gone for days to get another monstrous visa for some garden spot country.

 

Golden rule on this side of the planet, when possible, Keep It Simple and.....

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by 55Jay

[OJAS]

21 minutes ago, topt said:

It is quite common actually for the reasons the OP stated. If you have to travel to several, say African, countries on one trip at relatively short notice then obtaining the relevant visas in time can be logistically difficult. 

I used to know a number of people in this situation and it has been discussed on TV before.

A second passport would also be essential if you had to travel to a Gulf state after a trip to Israel. There is no way in which you would be able to enter a Gulf state with a passport containing Israeli stamps.

[kwonitoy]

2 minutes ago, OJAS said:

A second passport would also be essential if you had to travel to a Gulf state after a trip to Israel. There is no way in which you would be able to enter a Gulf state with a passport containing Israeli stamps.

Israel will stamp on a removable piece of paper on request for just this purpose

My country will only give me one passport

[Linden]

You were lucky same situation and both my passports were stamped in red Thai confirming only one passport (my near full older passport )could only be used in Thailand. They said the computer could not accept 2 pasport numbers for one person.

Malaysia would not let me swap to the other passport either on entry which in the past was never a problem. UAE Cambodia & Singapore were never any problem. 

[lonewolf99]

Like the OP I have held  2 UK passports since the mid 90's for the same reason.

But..... I have never had an extension based on retirement visa in any one of them ...because I am not retired and "technically" neither is the OP.

So no surprise this was flagged. I swap my passports purely to avoid having them fill up too quickly.

 

As is always the case - Ubonjoe is right....and so was the Officer at the airport.

 

 

[1812]

5 minutes ago, Linden said:

You were lucky same situation and both my passports were stamped in red Thai confirming only one passport (my near full older passport )could only be used in Thailand.

Can you scan and post a picture of this red Thai stamp?

[KiChakayan]

The issue here, I think, not the two passports, but the fact that to keep your retirement extension alive you should have a re-entry permit to Thailand, which in your case should be multy-entry and hence worth 3800 Bahts for one year.

Obviously you'd make everyone's life easier if you'd use the same passport for all your Thai transactions.

 

[Sydebolle]

Well, the media reported on some high flying cases where Thai nationals had upto four passports, all valid and useable. 

In all fairness I would use only one passport in/out of Thailand; takes some planning ahead but is trouble free. These IO, like many other countries are not essentially known for their common sense and giving you an RE validity arrival stamp in a passport other than the one with the RE itself ...... go figure. 

Assume safely that the same could be said if one passport is linked to a local work permit; file for an extension with the other passport ....... ouch! 

[Cricky]

I have a CONCURRENT passport from Australia. This is not common, in fact rare.

The Australian government require a lot of information from your employer to allow Australian citizens to have a second passport.

I work offshore and have many friends with British passports,

I get the impression the British government hands out 2^nd passports willy nllly.

 

I understand using a second passport for entry into Thailand.

1.       Passports fill very quickly.

2.       RE is not multiple entry, a cost saving if coming in on the 2^nd passport.

 

Perhaps Immigration are getting fed up with all these Brits having 2 passports.

[Kurtf]

Whoa, your life is way too complicated. You're going to die of stress related heart attack with all this in and out round and about stuff.

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, stevenl said:

Intere4sting read.

 

I don't think many people use 2 passports for entering the same country. Didn't know the visa and entry were passport related and not person related.

Plenty threads on TV where border runners are reminded that flipping passports when making a land border exit/re-entry to Thailand isn't possible (since both IO's on both sides of the border want to see the other IO's stamps) whereas the IO's at airports don't check for stamps (but some ask to see the boarding pass).

 

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The extension, re-entry permit stamps and etc are all in one passport. All of the records of them are linked to that passport. You have to use that passport for entry to the country.

 

Makes perfect sense. As I already said, the IO was gurning about my having a wife in Udon and the previous ME's as he could also see that in his computer There are no expired ME's in the current passport as I changed to RE's before the previous passport expired. I am wondering why, after maybe 18 years of popping in and out of LOS's airports on passports with dual validity and never a question raised about the other passport, did this re-entry get flagged?

 

6 hours ago, 007 RED said:

OP.....

Having two (or more) passports is not unusual these days.  Many people do have dual nationality whilst others need a second passport to allow them to enter two countries who will deny entry if they see a passport stamp from the other country.

 

Most immigrations systems throughout the world (including Thailand) have for many years been able to match the holders of multiple passports.

...

From your post, I would suspect that because your ‘second’ passport has most of your Visa Exempt stamps in it, this may have been initially ‘flagged’ up on the IOs screen.  He/she then noticed that you had a second passport with an RE.  Hence the questions as to why you needed a VE instead of using the RE.

 

As you have indicated in your post, I would suggest that you just stick to using the passport with the RE in it.  Less confusing for the IO (bless them).

I think that you are correct and it was possibly this particular IO's increased due diligence on what would have been my second visa-exempt entry this year that opened my can of worms. Immigration at Suvarnabhumi was slow but not busy at just before noon last Friday so he had more time to sniff around actually do his job. Either way, the IO's supervisor has already said that I can only use the RE'd passport from now on. No big deal. No red stamps as the supervisor handed the second 'rejected' passport back to me before processing the RE'd one.

 

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

A second passport would also be essential if you had to travel to a Gulf state after a trip to Israel. There is no way in which you would be able to enter a Gulf state with a passport containing Israeli stamps.

Same applies for Cuba where I worked while living in the US; all enabled by having two passports. But like Israel, the Cubans will insert a loose visa stamp card in your passport with no stamps placed on actual passport pages.

 

4 hours ago, lonewolf99 said:

Like the OP I have held  2 UK passports since the mid 90's for the same reason.

But..... I have never had an extension based on retirement visa in any one of them ...because I am not retired and "technically" neither is the OP.

So no surprise this was flagged. I swap my passports purely to avoid having them fill up too quickly.

 

As is always the case - Ubonjoe is right....and so was the Officer at the airport.

Nothing "technically" about it. As far as Thai Immigration Law is concerned, I am of requisite age to apply for and obtain a RE. Been that way for over 10 years.

Maybe you missed in my overly long OP that the main reason I flip my passports is exactly the same as yours.

 

I think ubonjoe's right only inasmuch as all my RE-related stamps are in the same passport. If he has the definitive answer as to why I have successfully used the other passport to happily exit and enter for several years previously up until last Friday, then then I'll start handing out the lollies.

 

The IO's are always right. Even the ones that have a bad hair day and decide to do their jobs properly!

 

4 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

The issue here, I think, not the two passports, but the fact that to keep your retirement extension alive you should have a re-entry permit to Thailand, which in your case should be multy-entry and hence worth 3800 Bahts for one year.

Obviously you'd make everyone's life easier if you'd use the same passport for all your Thai transactions.

 

The RE's and associated multiple re-entry permits are all in the same passport. Just like my ME's and their supporting multiple re-entry permits were all in the same passport that preceded this passport.

 

I wish I could apologize to the poor buggers that got stuck behind me. There was a hysterically wailing Chinese lady and an argumentative Indian family at the adjacent two lanes so everyone was stuffed!

 

Anyway, my post was more of an advisory for those who may be in the same boat, ie. flipping same-nationality passports on flights. This being Thailand, your own experience can and probably will vary.

[Ulic]

7 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

Israel will stamp on a removable piece of paper on request for just this purpose

My country will only give me one passport

Cuba as well.

[Maestro]

14 hours ago, NanLaew said:

...To stop one passport filling up faster than the other, I flip them on re-entry to Thailand. I have been doing this for maybe 18 years already...

 

From your lengthy OP, which I do not want to quote in its entirety, do I understand correctly that the above excerpt from your post was not the proposed use you stated on your application for a second passport and that therefore this was not the purpose for which your country's embassy gave you a second passport?

[bermannor]

But some countries would not stamp on a piece of paper! 

If you visit Iran as a tourist, you might have problems to get a US visa and vice versa. So, that's a request argument in my country for a second passport.

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I think ubonjoe's right only inasmuch as all my RE-related stamps are in the same passport. If he has the definitive answer as to why I have successfully used the other passport to happily exit and enter for several years previously up until last Friday, then then I'll start handing out the lollies.

I think the initial problem could of been a flag for having more than 6 visa exempt entries so the officer checked back through your record and found you had another passport you had used for entry. That is when your problem started.

If they wanted to get real picky and nasty the could say your existing extension was invalid since you had stayed in the country with a different permit to stay than what your extension allowed.

Not sure it is worth the risk having problems to avoid a small entry stamp in your primary passport.

[moe666]

Southeast Asian nations are becoming more security aware, probably thinking someone with 2 passports could be a dodgy traveller. Countries want to know who is coming and going to insure you are not up to illegal stuff

[NanLaew]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

From your lengthy OP, which I do not want to quote in its entirety, do I understand correctly that the above excerpt from your post was not the proposed use you stated on your application for a second passport and that therefore this was not the purpose for which your country's embassy gave you a second passport?

The OP was lengthy in order to be comprehensive and filter out irrelevant responses and questions based on not having such a comprehensive explanation up front. This for the most part has been a success.

 

At the risk of this post being even lengthier, the request for the second passport was supported by the following request from my employer,

 

"... the scope of his work entails frequent and extended international tours of duty, often at short notice. These assignments typically require that a visa be issued in advance of any travel. Having a single passport can cause prohibitive delays and missed business opportunities. Through continued possession of a second passport, these visas and travel permissions can be obtained in advance, enabling his travel directly and quickly between global assignments."

 

The second passport issue was subsequently approved. There's no way any country's passport authority will issue a second passport just because an individual's travel regimen fills then up too fast. A bit silly to even suggest that.

 

I am talking about a benefit of having two passports; a benefit shared by at least two other contributors to this thread. The ability to chose whatever passport one wants to enter any given country isn't dictated by the passport issuing authority; the dual passport holder exercises that right. Ultimately the IO at the port of entry determines if actual entry is allowed. Accordingly, one of the benefits of having this flexibility is being able to balance the page usage in both passports so that one doesn't fill up prematurely and require early replacement. On average, my last 8 dual passport issues have each filled up and needed to be replaced in less than 5 years, well before their 10 year validity expires. The aim is to try and keep that standard and not have one passport that needs renewing every couple of years.

 

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I think the initial problem could of been a flag for having more than 6 visa exempt entries so the officer checked back through your record and found you had another passport you had used for entry. That is when your problem started.

If they wanted to get real picky and nasty the could say your existing extension was invalid since you had stayed in the country with a different permit to stay than what your extension allowed.

Not sure it is worth the risk having problems to avoid a small entry stamp in your primary passport.

I will need to check in the 'declined' second passport exactly how many visa exempt entries it has; it is currently at an embassy getting a visa for a third country! Checking my calendar, I have had only 1 visa exempt entry since the start of 2018 and this attempt would have been only my second in 5 months. I departed well before the maximum allowed stay and did not extend it; I have always left early and never extended any visa exempt entry BTW. If I do have 6 or more visa exempt entries in the second passport, they will be spaced over maybe the last 18 months as I am in and out of Thailand 5 or 6 times a year.

 

Thanks for all the input and comments to date.

NL

[NanLaew]

17 hours ago, rickjza said:

I have a CONCURRENT passport from Australia. This is not common, in fact rare.

The Australian government require a lot of information from your employer to allow Australian citizens to have a second passport.

I work offshore and have many friends with British passports,

I get the impression the British government hands out 2^nd passports willy nllly.

 

I understand using a second passport for entry into Thailand.

1.       Passports fill very quickly.

2.       RE is not multiple entry, a cost saving if coming in on the 2^nd passport.

 

Perhaps Immigration are getting fed up with all these Brits having 2 passports.

Per my previous post above and based on my past several years of dual UK passportry, your perception that the "British government hands out 2nd passports willy nllly" maybe isn't the case. The request letter needs to be the signed original in the mail and they contact the signatory of that letter. They also want to see a full color scan of the other, concurrent passport as part of the either passport renewal application.

 

I would suggest that British oil field workers having concurrent UK passports are comparatively rare but an Australian oil field worker having concurrent AU passports is more rare.

 

Yes, the biggest 48-page British one only has 42 usable pages. I recall reading that Australians can get a 60-page passport, is that correct? I also read that there is a 90-page UK passport exclusively for flight crew but haven't found any evidence of that being factual.

 

Not sure what the comment on the RE is relevant unless you missed in the OP that I called the retirement Extension an 'RE' to save typing it in long-hand every time. As explained, my 'first' passport has the RE and all the required supporting re-entry permits in it. The multiple re-entry permit costs the same whether one uses it 3 times or 6 times. I don't nickel and dime on getting single re-entry permits as I know I will be traveling a lot.

 

Thanks

[mcvisa]

20 hours ago, 007 RED said:

OP.....

 

Having two (or more) passports is not unusual these days.  Many people do have dual nationality whilst others need a second passport to allow them to enter two countries who will deny entry if they see a passport stamp from the other country.

 

Most immigrations systems throughout the world (including Thailand) have for many years been able to match the holders of multiple passports.

 

Machine Readable Travel Documents (MRTD) were originally introduced in the late 1980s.  However, they did not become mandatory under UN rules until 2005.  MRTD allow the IO to place the photo page onto a scanner which then reads the information at the bottom of the page between <<<< >>>>.

 

When the Immigration database detects that the passport number is not known to it, the system automatically does a search based upon:  Type of Document; Country Code; Gender; Date of Birth; Family name; First Name(s).

 

If the system finds a match based upon the above mentioned criterion, it will display your photo on the IO’s screen that was taken when you last used the other passport to enter the Kingdom.  The IO then confirms that the information presented to him/her is you and the two passports are then permanently linked thus enabling the IO to see your complete record of entries/exits, types of visas, extensions, refusals, bans etc. etc.

 

FYI…. The search only takes a couple of seconds and the system is also more than 80% capable of matching when people change their names.

 

From your post, I would suspect that because your ‘second’ passport has most of your Visa Exempt stamps in it, this may have been initially ‘flagged’ up on the IOs screen.  He/she then noticed that you had a second passport with an RE.  Hence the questions as to why you needed a VE instead of using the RE.

 

As you have indicated in your post, I would suggest that you just stick to using the passport with the RE in it.  Less confusing for the IO (bless them).

 

I'm sure this is within the realms of current technology globally, however it doesn't collerate with most peoples experiencing passing through major Thai airports regularly. If such was the case, where the information was presented within seconds, you wouldn't get the page flicking, and nung, song, sam, counting for those long termers on exemptions or Toursit Visa. I do believe they can link, possibly at the supervisors office, but I don't think this is enabled on a scan at normal kioaks,  I can't see how your assessment on automatic linking and presenting the information within seconds can be true as a fresh passport solves most questioning for long terms exemptees and back to back TV users, or those on massive overstay prior to good guy bad guy ban, some up to ten years.

 

 

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

If they wanted to get real picky and nasty the could say your existing extension was invalid since you had stayed in the country with a different permit to stay than what your extension allowed.

Not sure it is worth the risk having problems to avoid a small entry stamp in your primary passport.

Absolutely agree... and why I hastily backpedaled, got my second passport back and went ahead with a re-entry on the RE.

 

Yes, not a hill of beans as in my experience, the Thai IO's are very good at keeping their stamps close together.

 

My main question point was trying ti define if this is an existing statute being newly enforced like many more under the current regime or a complete new law. Since you are pretty much the go-to guy on new immigration laws, I suspect it is the former with the preceding years of my untrammeled access by didnt of the many apathetic passport shufflers.