On 5/15/2018 at 11:08 PM, SheungWan said:

 

They were just there for a picnic.

 

6 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

And when exactly did Hamas supposedly take over during the protests?

 

Was there a specific day? 

 

What did Hamas do during these protests if you claim that they were actively involved? 

Apparently the whole of Hamas were away on their Spring Break apart from a couple of dozen who were still busy finishing off some tunnels for an urgent knife delivery and couldn't make it topside that week.

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Wasn't aware trolls could be stunned. Live and learn.

If you believe I’m trolling you, use the report function.

 

In the meanwhile I’ll point out the excuses you make for a mass killing commited by the Israelis.

 

A mass killing you strain yourself to admit is ‘not bereft of legal and moral issues’.

 

Morch, right nor I can’t think of anything more legally and morally loaded than the mass killing of human beings.

 

But then I’m not in the business of excusing mass killings.

 

More proof they're Hamas terrorists :

 

http://www.israellycool.com/2018/05/15/islamic-jihad-terrorists-including-16-year-old-among-those-killed-in-gaza-border-riot-yesterday/

 

<<<< Link to a site blocked in Thailand removed >>>>

8 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The Egyptians razed homes in order to construct their own barrier. They've also pumped seawater to them underground tunnels used by the Hamas for smuggling goods into the Gaza Strip. 

 

Egypt–Gaza barrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_barrier

 

2013–15 Egyptian demolition of homes and smuggling tunnels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Egypt_border#2013–15_Egyptian_demolition_of_homes_and_smuggling_tunnels

 

 

For a fellow Arab country, who keeps the Palestinians under blockade, it doesn't get much criticism, and obviously not much by way of protests. Perhaps the Palestinians are aware of just how Egypt's armed and security forces deal with protestors.

It deserves its own thread.

 

But this isn’t it.

3 hours ago, JimmyTheMook said:

More proof they're Hamas terrorists :

 

http://www.israellycool.com/2018/05/15/islamic-jihad-terrorists-including-16-year-old-among-those-killed-in-gaza-border-riot-yesterday/

 

<<<< Link to a site blocked in Thailand removed >>>>

 

Let's remember that the members of the ANC (African National Congress) were condemned as "terrorists" by South Africa and its allies including Israel, and the USA,  which did not remove Nelson Mandela from the U.S. terrorism watch list till 2008.

 

Often the difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is determined by the economic/political interests of those doing the labeling with no objectivity.

 

Certainly what many now call freedom fighters were always vilified by the other side, from the USA colonial revolutionaries to the Freedom Riders/Martin Luther King Jr. (condemned by J. Edgar Hoover/the FBI), and just as true thru the present time.

 

"But, Hamas..." is a sad and shallow excuse.

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

Apparently the whole of Hamas were away on their Spring Break apart from a couple of dozen who were still busy finishing off some tunnels for an urgent knife delivery and couldn't make it topside that week.

 

People in prison dig tunnels.

 

The tunnels have been used to bring supplies in to Gaza, which is kept in a state of desperation and need by Israel - electricity is only available at certain times of day, very little drinkable water, lacking medicines, food, etc.

An inflammatory post and replies have been removed

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

People in prison dig tunnels.

 

The tunnels have been used to bring supplies in to Gaza, which is kept in a state of desperation and need by Israel - electricity is only available at certain times of day, very little drinkable water, lacking medicines, food, etc.

Must be a lovely land that you inhabit , yes thats right they only dig the tunnels to bring in medicine . you couldnt make it up.

11 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Must be a lovely land that you inhabit , yes thats right they only dig the tunnels to bring in medicine . you couldnt make it up.

"Starving Gaza one tunnel at a time"

"The destruction of tunnels that bring crucial supplies into Gaza is worsening the already dire humanitarian crisis facing Palestinians..."

 

"ISRAEL HAS long claimed that the tunnels' primary purpose is to violate Israeli "sovereignty" and perpetrate acts of "terrorism" against it (such as the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit).

 

However, it is Israel's siege of Gaza since 2007 that has turned these tunnels into lifelines that supply food, medicine, construction materials, computers, livestock, fuel, automobile parts and more.

Expensive, dangerous and susceptible to Israeli air strikes, hundreds of tunnels costing millions of dollars have been constructed over the last decade. Up to 15,000 people are employed directly in their operation, as well as many more engineers, truck drivers and shopkeepers."

 

"https://socialistworker.org/2018/01/22/starving-gaza-one-tunnel-at-a-time

 

Israeli hasbara (propaganda) labeling these as "terror tunnels" does not make it so.

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think there are grounds to question the accuracy of the Comptroller's report. As to why - because Israel is nowhere as organized a country as some assume, and priorities with regard to acquisitions could be different. Usually there are several such specific comptroller reports annually, dealing with various issues related to the IDF, national security and such. Not all get addressed. Like many other countries, Israel doesn't get deal with things until they hit the fan.

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Well, since you've already decided what's the answer, why do you bother asking? IMO, there's no contradiction. The government may have this or that reprehensible attitude, and in parallel, there could be objective threats and needs which merit higher priorities.

 

You may wish to search a few other such headlines regarding such reports, ranging on all sorts of issues - it doesn't paint a flattering picture when it comes to the government's work, or failure to address other chronic problems.

So, on the one hand, it could be because of organizational deficiencies but on the other hand because  it's an objectively lower priority. Tell me, what government does such a gamut not encompass? Your reasons  apply to governments ranging from North Korea to Sweden. In other words, let's ignore all the the nasty political stuff that's specifically israeli and focus instead on unrelated administrative and technocratic concerns. 

Or, we need another war, to make things even and right again once for all! 

 

It have saved europe for war for more than 70 years now, except Ira and does kind of terrorists, but they gave in at the end to, or? 

 

I see there are some groups building up around old Ira ideology, and understand Brexit it to blaim for that one. Interesting times indeed. 

 

There is one thing for sure, nothing have changed in the world since the Roman empire and before that. Same shit same vending. 

4 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 Quote from source:

 

“In the interview, Liberman said: “You have to understand, there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip. Everyone has a connection to Hamas.Everyone receives a salary from Hamas.”

“Those who are trying to challenge us at the border and breach it belong to Hamas’s military wing,” he said.”

 

Looks like a repetitive preemptive self-made license to kill...

 

https://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/There-are-no-innocents-in-Gaza-says-Israeli-defense-minister-549173

 

And euh, by the way, I prefer the straight forward narrative from Lieberman...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

Your post, which I replied to asked about Hamas role with regard to the protests. I gave an account based on personal knowledge and information available on media (including those affiliated with the Hamas).

 

There was nothing in it which resembles the wholesale wide-brush and incorrect statement you quoted. If anything, quite the opposite.

 

That your reply would have little to do with my post was expected. That you dishonestly try to equate or tie my views with those of Lieberman is pathetic.

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you believe I’m trolling you, use the report function.

 

In the meanwhile I’ll point out the excuses you make for a mass killing commited by the Israelis.

 

A mass killing you strain yourself to admit is ‘not bereft of legal and moral issues’.

 

Morch, right nor I can’t think of anything more legally and morally loaded than the mass killing of human beings.

 

But then I’m not in the business of excusing mass killings.

 

 

You are trolling. This topic is not about me, even though you strongly try to spin it that way. No one appointed you to seat in judgement of posters' moral character and standing, even though you seem to entertain this illusion. I did not "strain myself" to anything, but gave my views on things. Views that I consider more informed than most posters. That you willfully choose to ignore anything whatsoever which does not fit the narrative you push is, to quote one American President, "sad".

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It deserves its own thread.

 

But this isn’t it.

 

Doubt it is irrelevant considering the one-sided "accounts" related to the blockade spewed by some posters.

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

Let's remember that the members of the ANC (African National Congress) were condemned as "terrorists" by South Africa and its allies including Israel, and the USA,  which did not remove Nelson Mandela from the U.S. terrorism watch list till 2008.

 

Often the difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is determined by the economic/political interests of those doing the labeling with no objectivity.

 

Certainly what many now call freedom fighters were always vilified by the other side, from the USA colonial revolutionaries to the Freedom Riders/Martin Luther King Jr. (condemned by J. Edgar Hoover/the FBI), and just as true thru the present time.

 

"But, Hamas..." is a sad and shallow excuse.

 

Let's remember that terrorists are often stopped being labeled terrorists after the lay down their arms, and choose the path of diplomacy and negotiations.

Remember when Taliban was the world treath, what happend to them? After Isis we have heard very little, and now it is all about NK and last Iran. 

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

People in prison dig tunnels.

 

The tunnels have been used to bring supplies in to Gaza, which is kept in a state of desperation and need by Israel - electricity is only available at certain times of day, very little drinkable water, lacking medicines, food, etc.

 

2 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Must be a lovely land that you inhabit , yes thats right they only dig the tunnels to bring in medicine . you couldnt make it up.

That's right, as soon as they get through its just a short run to the nearest 7-11 to stock up and then a quick stab and suicide mission to round off the day.

 

@bristolboy

 

You seem to imagine that Israel, the Israeli government and the IDF are totally focused on issues related to the Palestinians, or that they ought to be. With regard to the first, let me assure you that's not the case. Open an Israeli newspaper on a day not featuring an acute mess related to the Palestinians, and it would become rather obvious.

 

As for "ought" - perhaps, but then again - a right-wing government actually focusing on this may not be such a great idea.

 

I think many Israelis, or those who lived in-country long enough would agree that a whole lot of issues are tackled in the spirit conveyed here:

 

Israel’s problem: ‘Yihye beseder’

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5245045,00.html

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

"Starving Gaza one tunnel at a time"

"The destruction of tunnels that bring crucial supplies into Gaza is worsening the already dire humanitarian crisis facing Palestinians..."

"ISRAEL HAS long claimed that the tunnels' primary purpose is to violate Israeli "sovereignty" and perpetrate acts of "terrorism" against it (such as the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit).

However, it is Israel's siege of Gaza since 2007 that has turned these tunnels into lifelines that supply food, medicine, construction materials, computers, livestock, fuel, automobile parts and more.

Expensive, dangerous and susceptible to Israeli air strikes, hundreds of tunnels costing millions of dollars have been constructed over the last decade. Up to 15,000 people are employed directly in their operation, as well as many more engineers, truck drivers and shopkeepers."

"https://socialistworker.org/2018/01/22/starving-gaza-one-tunnel-at-a-time

Israeli hasbara (propaganda) labeling these as "terror tunnels" does not make it so.

That would presumably be the same Socialist Worker org that gives unconditional support to Hamas.

12 hours ago, JemJem said:

As all of you probably know, Turkey is the country which has taken the toughest stand against Israel after these killings.

 

As some of you might know from another thread, I have harshly criticised Israel for what happened; but I don't want my country Turkey to be at the forefront of anti-Israel stuff. The reasons are :

 

*Turkey (and especially Erdogan's Turkey in the last 2-3 years) is in no moral position to criticise Israel. I think most people here know about the atrocities (killings, arrests, dismissals and various bans)  committed by Erdogan, especially against the Kurds, secularists and leftists, especially in the last 2-3 years. I think Netanyahu has rightfully pointed this out (well....yes, 'pot and kettle....' stuff).

 

*Anti-Israel demos, speeches, etc. in Turkey, sadly, often, take an anti-Semitic direction, especially with Erdogan in power. There will be a demonstration in Istanbul this Friday, called by Erdogan 2 days ago. I am 99.9999 percent sure that there will be lots of anti-Semitic speeches, slogans and banners unfortunately. I am also quite sure that people from Islamic extremist groups like Hamas and Muslim B. will attend it, and might even speak.

 

I (and most secularists) am deeply troubled by the direction Erdogan is taking my country. Our voices are mostly drowned in the media, because Erdogan and his thugs control almost all of the mainstream media. He has almost total control on other key institutions, like the judiciary, as well.

 

I am getting tired of writing this too; but again, shame on the West for still doing business with this guy and his government. For example, earlier this week, he was with T.May in London. I am sure that various business and even military deals were signed unfortunately.

 

Plus, elections in 6 weeks. Foreign issues always good for some diversion from what's going on in-country. Especially is playing the religious card.

An offensive troll post has been removed. 

350 on the subject and consensus, just to say that if tomorrow, god forbid, there will be Israeli casualties owing to a Palestinian acts, many on this forum will BE HAPPY and clap their hands in colectiv glee in jubilation of Israel's dead, and this is very sad that some of the posters here are educated people and but their views are skewed and distorted from all the atrocities of the Hamas leadership paying people or and forcing and threatening them to commit suicide....

The bottom line that 60 dead, thousands injured and all for nothing, yeah, the world has cried foul, and has condemned, yet again, this and that, but the world doesn't live in Israel or Gaza...

 

@notmyself

 

 

The "map" you posted, is not sourced. Nor is it really on topic much.

 

The State of Israel does not claim the entire region. There is no such government policy. 

Not all Israelis are religious. Not all those practicing their faith uphold each and every bit appearing in the Bible. And even less consider the sort of nonsense you post to be an imperative or a realistic objective.

 

Things are different with regard to the West Bank, due to religious significance, proximity and historical opportunity playing their part. Even this effort, though, 50 years in the making - is still controversial among Israelis, and faces obvious real hurdles - namely the millions of Palestinians living there. In this context, the Gaza Strip enjoys even less of a consensus.

 

Israel withdrew from territories conquered or occupied in Lebanon and Egypt. Same goes for the Gaza Strip. And if one wishes to be accurate - parts of the West Bank as well. Not quite what you tried to present.

 

It should also be remembered that the state of Israel claims the entire region (promised land) is theirs and considers Gaza to be occupied land.

 

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

People in prison dig tunnels.

The tunnels have been used to bring supplies in to Gaza, which is kept in a state of desperation and need by Israel - electricity is only available at certain times of day, very little drinkable water, lacking medicines, food, etc.

 

The Palestinian Authority and the government of Egypt have a different view than you. They decided to close the tunnels in the Philadelphi corridor, the border of Egypt, and flooded them.

One does have to admire the Egyptians for ingenuity as they diverted raw sewage into the tunnels to drown the  occupants and to render them unusable.The smuggling tunnels were primarily used to smuggle weapons and taxable commodities. Some were used to smuggle illegal drugs.  The  tax collected  on legal imports paid for the PA social services.  Don't believe me?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20150928-sisi-says-gaza-tunnels-flooded-in-coordination-with-pa/

 

The tunnels built into Israel that are reinforced with concrete and cement diverted away from Gaza infrastructure projects, are intended to facilitate  attacks against the Israeli residential communities that  are on the border.

 

In the words of the great, but dead, Pearl Bailey, honey, you are going to have to do better.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

People in prison dig tunnels.

 

The tunnels have been used to bring supplies in to Gaza, which is kept in a state of desperation and need by Israel - electricity is only available at certain times of day, very little drinkable water, lacking medicines, food, etc.

 

People on forums post uninformed nonsense.

 

Hamas tunnels aimed at smuggling in supplies and arms were dug under the border with Egypt. In recent years Egypt invested much effort destroying these (even flooding them with seawater).

 

Hamas tunnels dug under the border with Israel were aimed at carrying out terrorist attacks against Israeli settlements nearby.

 

As for the "state of desperation" - it is maintained by Egypt as well, despite several posters doing their best to ignore the fact. The blockade itself is directly tied to Hamas rule of the Gaza Strip, its agenda, policies and actions. Pretending the blockade exist in a vacuum is a choice, but not a particularly honest, or informed one.

 

Hamas is the main obstacle for easing the blockade and alleviating the suffering of the populace. This stems from its ongoing rejection of oversight on dual use goods and materials imported to the Gaza Strip, its ongoing power plays with the PA, Israel, Egypt and donor countries with regard to major projects or energy supply issues.

 

A couple of quick examples - protestors recently managed to burn down (a third time, I think) facilities at the border pass with Israel servicing the transfer of goods, and damaging the pipeline via which they receive gas and oil. Damages are estimated at 8-12 million dollars, and repairs will take a while. On the same note, as the border was opened for traffic following the apparent understandings reached, a convoy of trucks loaded with emergency supplies rolled in the Gaza Strip. These were provided by the PA, UNICEF and Israel. Hamas refused to accept the latter - even though these are in dire need, and supplies already in Gaza. Not quite the attitude or wisdom one expects from a responsible leadership.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/who-gains-from-burning-gazas-only-fuel-pipelines/

 

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/50-of-dead-in-gaza-protest-were-hamas-activists-says-hamas-official-1.6094899

 

59 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@bristolboy

 

You seem to imagine that Israel, the Israeli government and the IDF are totally focused on issues related to the Palestinians, or that they ought to be. With regard to the first, let me assure you that's not the case. Open an Israeli newspaper on a day not featuring an acute mess related to the Palestinians, and it would become rather obvious.

 

As for "ought" - perhaps, but then again - a right-wing government actually focusing on this may not be such a great idea.

 

I think many Israelis, or those who lived in-country long enough would agree that a whole lot of issues are tackled in the spirit conveyed here:

 

Israel’s problem: ‘Yihye beseder’

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5245045,00.html

You proposed a generic explanation that could apply to any government in the world. And where did I posit that Israeli government and the IDF are totally focused on issues related to the Palestinians? Stop making things up.  But it is a central issue and it's ludicrous to deny the overwhelming odds that this very negative attitude plays a strong role in Israeli decision making.

 

@JimmyJ

 

You (and the author of that piece) need to get informed, rather than conflating things. Of course, if that's what you were aiming for, go right ahead...

 

Gaza Strip smuggling tunnels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_smuggling_tunnels

 

Right under the headline, one can find a notice: Not to be confused with Palestinian tunnel warfare in the Gaza Strip.

 

Palestinian tunnel warfare in the Gaza Strip

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

You proposed a generic explanation that could apply to any government in the world. And where did I posit that Israeli government and the IDF are totally focused on issues related to the Palestinians? Stop making things up.  But it is a central issue and it's ludicrous to deny the overwhelming odds that this very negative attitude plays a strong role in Israeli decision making.

 

The ludicrous attitude is to expect the Israeli government to be unlike many other governments when it comes to managing it's priorities, spending and whatnot. There are no "overwhelming odds", other than you claiming there are. Get a clue - that's pretty much how most things are run by the Israeli government. In many of my posts, I make the point that Israel is not on par with the West when it comes to such things as democracy and human rights. The same goes for this. You seem to claim malice of some sort, I'd say it's more off-hand disregard and stupidity.

 

And now, off to MIL's place - she's warming up to the concept of having a farang "boy", I think.

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

350 on the subject and consensus, just to say that if tomorrow, god forbid, there will be Israeli casualties owing to a Palestinian acts, many on this forum will BE HAPPY and clap their hands in colectiv glee in jubilation of Israel's dead, and this is very sad that some of the posters here are educated people and but their views are skewed and distorted from all the atrocities of the Hamas leadership paying people or and forcing and threatening them to commit suicide....

The bottom line that 60 dead, thousands injured and all for nothing, yeah, the world has cried foul, and has condemned, yet again, this and that, but the world doesn't live in Israel or Gaza...

Strawman fallacy. You fantasize about reading posters' minds and create a hypothetical (notice future tense)"just to say that if tomorrow, god forbid, there will be"..."many on this forum will BE HAPPY and clap their hands in colectiv glee", then attack the phoney construct you have just created using the present tense as though your strawman is real. "this is very sad"

 

I notice no sympathy whatsover for the very real people, including children, paraplegics and press, who lost their lives because IDF snipers clinically selected them for execution. You dehumanize and blame the victims.

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

350 on the subject and consensus, just to say that if tomorrow, god forbid, there will be Israeli casualties owing to a Palestinian acts, many on this forum will BE HAPPY and clap their hands in colectiv glee in jubilation of Israel's dead, and this is very sad that some of the posters here are educated people and but their views are skewed and distorted from all the atrocities of the Hamas leadership paying people or and forcing and threatening them to commit suicide....

The bottom line that 60 dead, thousands injured and all for nothing, yeah, the world has cried foul, and has condemned, yet again, this and that, but the world doesn't live in Israel or Gaza...

Look what you just did.

 

You dreamed up a fatal scenario for the future and then dreamed up a reaction from those you are arguing with to the scenario you dreamed up.

 

1. All of that was in your own head.

2. You don’t need to dream up fatal scenarios, we already discussing a mass killing, mass injuring.

3. You are dreaming up a callous disregard for human life and attributing that to people arguing exactly against a callous disregard for human life.

 

There are a number of weak arguments made on both sides of this discussion, this last offering of yours goes beyond weak, it’s pathetic and reeks of the agressors being painted as victims.