Landlord of huge condo building attempting to subvert new laws

[nailbrains8]

I moved into a large condo building a week or so ago in Chiang Mai.

 

Upon moving in, I signed a contract declaring that my electricity rate is 5 baht per unit, in line with government rates and the new laws.

 

Only after moving everything into the condo, the management approached me as I was leaving the building to tell me "there is a new fee that you have to pay!"

 

A "communal area fee" the cost of which equates to 3 baht per unit of electricity I use.

 

I don't know what communal area they're talking about and the manager even openly said it's because of the new law, we can't add this on to the electric bill anymore...

 

Again, my contract says 5 baht per unit. I was told this 3 days after moving in.

 

Where do I stand with this additional and unexpected expense?

 

Should I just not pay it?

 

If not paying it causes problems should I seek advice from a Thai solicitor? How much would that cost?

 

They are holding a small one month deposit of 6500 baht so I'd imagine they'd try to take it out of that and getting it back when I move could be challenging. 

 

Thanks in advance and I appreciate any advice.

[ukrules]

I'm pretty sure they're already padding it out a bit at 5 Baht per unit.

[scubascuba3]

There must be a place where these dodgy landlords can be reported? Email address?

As for getting thai lawyers involved, its just not worth it. If you feel strongly give notice and move out when the period of the agreement ends

[grumbleweed]

5 baht per unit??? So besides getting shafted for the electricity you do use, you're gonna have to pay a surcharge for the upkeep of Narnia

 

Stand aside please: Thai business logic in full flow

[Andyfez]

I'm pretty sure most apartments simply moved the goalposts..

Mine did.

Big sign in the lifts saying that the electricity and water costs have been reduced, but other services in the contract have increased to compensate .

Only good thing is I expect my second months deposit to be returned.

TIT

Withholding payment will just give you trouble .

 

[Bob12345]

40 minutes ago, Andyfez said:

I'm pretty sure most apartments simply moved the goalposts..

Mine did.

Big sign in the lifts saying that the electricity and water costs have been reduced, but other services in the contract have increased to compensate .

Was the government seriously thinking the owners of these apartments would just shrug and be fine with much less profits (or even losses) ?

 

Of course the money will now come from somewhere else. Be it bogus costs they charge you or just higher rents.

[KittenKong]

Again, my contract says 5 baht per unit. I was told this 3 days after moving in.

It's not in your contract so you don't need to pay.

Go and see your local Office of Consumer Protection about the overcharging attempt (ask at your City Hall).

Of course that wont make you any friends with the management, and Thais can be vindictive and very childish.

[meinphuket]

Since you mention its a condominium you live in, all charges must initially be approved by the committee, and be mentioned in the rules and regulations, and duly approved by the annual general meeting of owners. If not, you can refuse to pay. Let them know you know how things work. Check the rules and regs at the land office, and secondly go to the PEA and check what tariff your building is on, as rates differ.

[Peterw42]

21 minutes ago, meinphuket said:

Since you mention its a condominium you live in, all charges must initially be approved by the committee, and be mentioned in the rules and regulations, and duly approved by the annual general meeting of owners. If not, you can refuse to pay. Let them know you know how things work. Check the rules and regs at the land office, and secondly go to the PEA and check what tariff your building is on, as rates differ.

The OP appears to be in an apartment block (one person owns the whole block) not a Condominium (individual owners). Even if it was a condominium, the committee ,condo office and by-laws have nothing to do with the supply or what a landlord charges a tenant for electricity. In a condominium the electricity is a direct supply (and bill ) from PEA to the individually owned condos, there is no building tariff/supply/rate, except a supply for common property. 

 

An apartment block (one owner) has an Electricity supply from PEA, then fits private meters to bill the tenants.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Peterw42

[tigermoth]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

I'm pretty sure they're already padding it out a bit at 5 Baht per unit.

agree. My landlord is charging 6 bht a unit for electricity, (it was 7 bht), and has added 200 bht onto the rent which he claims is to cover for outside facilities which are basically a few flourescent tubes. He raised the rent only a few months ago by 500 bht a month. He has done away with with the water fee which was a standard fee of 15o bht per month. It doesn't take an Einstein to see he is still overcharging.

[casualbiker]

So all you guys living in apartments.. you don't have hallway lights or lifts etc.. the extra charges on electricity generally went to pay for that! Kinda like Moo Baan people pay communal charge..

[jippytum]

The apartment i rent in Chiang  Mai  has reduced the water and electricity but increased the rent to compensate .

[torsten brack]

Even if law is on your side, practically they are in a stronger position. If you do not pay, they will cut your utilities support while it will probably take you several weeks until authorities step in.

[connda]

One way or another they will make up the lost revenue.  What's not to understand.  If the government of the US, UK or EU levied a tax (such as property tax) on a product or service, the seller isn't going to eat those taxes, but will pass them along to the consumer.  So this isn't just evil Thai landlords.  This is how a market works globally.

Edited May 25, 2018 by connda

[Eaglekott]

My landlord gives me the electric bill from MEA and I pay 4.10 Baht per unit including vat, 

[holy cow cm]

3.94/4bht per unit before 7% tax. This is what I pay for my home. After tax it is about 4.2 baht, so whom ever you are renting from is rounding up to 5bht/unit. I could see them scraping an extra 1 baht for external amenities, but if you times that 3 baht by all of the renters then they are collecting quite a owners ransom. 

 

So how many units for the external charge are they bending you over for?

[KittenKong]

Since you mention its a condominium you live in, all charges must initially be approved by the committee, and be mentioned in the rules and regulations, and duly approved by the annual general meeting of owners. If not, you can refuse to pay.

Not at all.

Utility prices as billed by a condo building are not commonly fixed in the building regs, and increases do not have to be voted on. It is a committee decision, though to avoid co-owner dissent the amount billed should reflect the amount the condo building itself pays the original supplier. Concerned co-owners can of course bring up the topic at a GM, and could ask for a vote, or the committee could choose to include the topic in the agenda, but it does not have to happen automatically unless perhaps the building regs specifically state that it must. That is not the case in any condo building that I have personal knowledge of.

Apart from that, the condo building/committee can set prices for utilities that the condo building charges directly to co-owners but it has no right at all to set the prices that are subsequently re-billed by owners or agents to tenants, any more than it has any right to decide how much co-owners charge their tenants for rent. Also the cost of any utilities that are billed directly by third parties (which commonly includes electricity, or ADSL) is none of the building's business at all, so it cannot intervene in the pricing in any way.

The recent change in the law does affect co-owner landlords, but it does not involve the building itself at all.

Of course if the building in question is an apartment building (which this one may well be) then there is no committee or co-owner GM to be concerned about, and the rules are very different.

[KittenKong]

I pay 7 baht/unit, but someone has to pay for air-conditioning of the common areas and power that the lifts, lighting, and the rest of electrical/electronic equipment in shared use consumes. They only own one smaller property so this law doesn't apply to them, but I understand what that "padding" is for and wouldn't make noise about it. I'm actually quite pleased with the service they provide for that few extra baht per month.

If your building is a condo then the common fees are designed to cover all these common expenses. Hall lighting, elevator power, water and power for the pool, cleaning, office functions, maintenance, security etc.

If your building is an apartment building then the rent should include the cost of these common expenses and the landlord should pay for them out of the rent he receives.

[robblok]

5 hours ago, Bob12345 said:

Was the government seriously thinking the owners of these apartments would just shrug and be fine with much less profits (or even losses) ?

 

Of course the money will now come from somewhere else. Be it bogus costs they charge you or just higher rents.

Of course the owners are not going to take less money. I would not, (Not that i would use these tactics). As a owner you have a certain amount of money you want to receive for your property. You build it up in a legal way (though i find the electricity thing unethical) and then all of a sudden the goverment changes things. Sounds quite unfair for business owners. The tenants agreed to the terms, lower rent but higher electricity. 

 

Now all of a sudden the owners are taking a hit, its only normal they want to get back to the same amount they made before. That is how they calculated their ROI (rate on investment). 

 

Funny of a government to expect the owners to take a hit and make themselves popular by doing so and expecting the appartment owners just taking it and losing money.

[Lacessit]

The OP does not make it clear whether he is renting or owning.

If he is renting, simple - he can void the contract as the terms have been changed, and move out. Plenty of condos in CM crying out for good tenants.

If he is an owner - well, that's one of the positives of renting. Although he still may be able to void the contract, as long as he kisses the 6500 baht goodbye.

[chickenrunCM]

a additional fee to your electric consumption is illegal! 

Common area costs are extra and charged to the condo owner and calculated in relation to the qm of the condo. 

tell them to go to the condo owner as you have all costs what you have to pay in your rental contract. 

electric for common area is the monthy condo fee and was never taken from the electric bill.

[Delight]

 I am struggling to work out wether you are a co -owner or  a tenant .

Please advise!

[nailbrains8]

25 minutes ago, Delight said:

 I am struggling to work out wether you are a co -owner or  a tenant .

Please advise!

Tenant. Just renting. I have spoken to my neighbour and they are trying this on with all the tenants so I'm sure I'm not the only one who has an issue with it.

Edited May 25, 2018 by nailbrains8

[nailbrains8]

58 minutes ago, chickenrunCM said:

a additional fee to your electric consumption is illegal! 

Common area costs are extra and charged to the condo owner and calculated in relation to the qm of the condo. 

tell them to go to the condo owner as you have all costs what you have to pay in your rental contract. 

electric for common area is the monthy condo fee and was never taken from the electric bill.

It also says absolutely nothing about this in my contract!

 

I get that they're going to try and make up their costs one way or another but the reason I am pissed about it is that they waited until 3/4 days after I moved in and then just told me "oh you have to pay us this" it's not written anywhere, it isn't in my contract, so essentially what their doing is just making up charges and telling tenants to pay them.

 

On top of that they lied to me about the rate (did not tell me about their communal fee) prior to moving in.

[Lacessit]

8 minutes ago, nailbrains8 said:

Tenant. Just renting. I have spoken to my neighbour and they are trying this on with all the tenants so I'm sure I'm not the only one who has an issue with it.

Interesting. What can they do if you refuse to pay, except give you death stares? I'm assuming they can't cut off electricity to individual apartments.

The electricity bill in my condo comes directly from the PEA, and I pay it at the 7/11. It may be worth while getting all the tenants to ask for direct billing.

IMHO someone is trying it on. Extra levies because there is a shortfall in funds to run the condo is an owner's problem. It has nothing to do with the tenants.

[KittenKong]

The OP does not make it clear whether he is renting or owning.

Since when do owners pay deposits or have landlords?

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Since when do owners pay deposits or have landlords?

They may be paying deposits on the apartment itself. If you can point out to me where the OP mentions landlords in his OP, I'll stand corrected.

[KittenKong]

Try the title of the topic.

And I still dont see why an owner would be "paying deposits".

[Delight]

11 hours ago, nailbrains8 said:

Tenant. Just renting. I have spoken to my neighbour and they are trying this on with all the tenants so I'm sure I'm not the only one who has an issue with it.

So we have established your status -tenant

 

Now lets look at the building

 

Is it  A 

A condominium. If so your landlord will be a co -owner,

or

B 

An apartment block

In which case the landlord will own the building or maybe a joint owner.

 

Just so I am clear

Please advise

[Lacessit]

14 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Try the title of the topic.

And I still dont see why an owner would be "paying deposits".

Perhaps the title is a misnomer, the OP meant "developer" or Juristic Person.

I'm not aware of a buying process here where one simply forks out payment in full. As with other countries, I imagine it's usual to pay a deposit first to secure the property, then pay the balance at a specified date later to settle the sale contract.