Jomtien immigration -- tracking rumor about change in policy about freshness of income letters

[Jingthing]

This may  be a really stupid question, but considering the problems our US friends have with getting an income letter, is it possible to get a US Lawyer,  based either here with a US firm, or in the US,  to produce a notarised letter of confirmation of income and see if that works at Immigration?  As I say, probably a stupid idea.  

No stupid questions but the income letters from embassies or consulates are definitely the only document accepted.

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[Jingthing]

It was 4 times a year in Pattaya, but it's been reduced to once a year now ... in June this year,  Apparently cuts in funding from State Dept for such things.

That's even worse. I don't recall it being as often as four times a year though.

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[OJAS]

2 hours ago, Hans Rayong said:

A few days ago....

09.00 Print necessary documents I got from Sweden

09.10 Left my house

09.40 Arrived Sweden Consulate in Pattaya

09.55 Left the consulate with proof of income

10.35 Arrived Immigration Rayong

10.47 Left Immigration Rayong with one-year retirement visa and multiple re-entry permit (yes only 12 minutes)

11.00 Arrived to my home and had a cup of coffee after two hours hard work

So Maptaput accepted a POI letter in your case that was less than 1 hour old. Many congratulations!

 

In the context of this thread, though, if there were any mileage in the rumour referred to in the OP, might Jomtien have been reacting in response to an Immigration Division 3 diktat (as distinct from one issued by the local head honcho)? If so, then there would clearly be potential implications for the other immigration offices covered by Division 3 - including Maptaput who also happen to be my local office. My fingers are firmly crossed, therefore, that the POI letter I obtained from the British Embassy the week before last will be still accepted when I apply for my next retirement extension there in a few weeks time - by which time it will be 2 months old.

Edited June 1, 2018 by OJAS

[poanoi]

1 hour ago, PhonThong said:

So, what are you saying? If you were not required to show proof or documentation you would just lie? Maybe that is why there is a double standard. As an American, I take an oath to be telling the truth pretty serious.

my social circle was almost exclusively americans,

they informed me they just made up a nr that would make it >800k,

they were pretty serious about gettn a cheap visa

[Pilotman]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

It is my opinion that the information you posted saying that the freshness rule for income letters has changed from six months to one month is indeed false. This topic seeking reports is intended to confirm or deny my strongly held opinion.

 

In any case if your information is not false it is a very big deal for some people and they need to know.

 

You are free to be insulted by having the info you reported challenged but this is much bigger than your pride or feelings or mine as well.

 

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Clearly English is not your first language.  I didn't claim that anything had changed, I told you what I was told was required and then what worked  when the day came, FOR INFORMATION .   Hurt feelings don't come into it.  Irritation with someone who  is clearly  just hoping or guessing does.  Why don't you  just get yourself down to Immigration and  ask?  You  probably wouldn't believe them either, regardless of what they told you.  !    

[Jingthing]

Clearly English is not your first language.  I didn't claim that anything had changed, I told you what I was told was required and then what worked  when the day came, FOR INFORMATION .   Hurt feelings don't come into it.  Irritation with someone who  is clearly  just hoping or guessing does.  Why don't you  just get yourself down to Immigration and  ask?  You  probably wouldn't believe them either, regardless of what they told you.  !    

You asked at the front desk, right?

The credibility of the information you have reported would be higher if you got it from the actual retirement desk.

Please answer that question. I've asked you that repeatedly with no answer. Either you really want to be helpful or you just want to play stupid insult and ego games.


I still advise expats NOT to consider that there really has been a rule change at Jomtien for the time being unless we later get much stronger evidence than you have provided.

If that annoys you I don't care. Your sophomoric insults fall on deaf ears. I care that expats get the correct information.

So again how about telling us once and for all did you get that info you reported at the front of the office or at the actual retirement desk?

It makes a difference.

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[JLCrab]

3 hours ago, poanoi said:

ok, so:

1] no documentation whatsoever to back up a claim

2] no means whatsoever for anyone to investigate the claim

3] define swearing an oath/BS from start to finish,

no way of telling, and no one will or can verify validity of the claim,

that for all practical purposes can be made out of thin air

I have several times been asked by the US Consular Official, before notarizing my Income Affidavit, whether I am aware that the Thai Immigration official at their discretion can ask for corroborating documents as to my sworn statement of monthly income. I have never been so asked by Thai IMM but I bring the documents with me just in case.

 

The reasoning by the US State Department policy of not authenticating any document is in part that it is so easy these days to fabricate or alter any document so I guess all the other countries take on scouts honor from their citizens that they have not tampered with or created on Pageamker or Photoshop out of thin air any hard copy document they hand over to the official.

 

 

[norrska]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You asked at the front desk, right?

The credibility of the information you have reported would be higher if you got it from the actual retirement desk.

Please answer that question. I've asked you that repeatedly with no answer. Either you really want to be helpful or you just want to play stupid insult and ego games.


I still advise expats NOT to consider that there really has been a rule change at Jomtien for the time being unless we later get much stronger evidence than you have provided.

If that annoys you I don't care. Your sophomoric insults fall on deaf ears. I care that expats get the correct information.

So again how about telling us once and for all did you get that info you reported at the front of the office or at the actual retirement desk?

It makes a difference.

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Why not go down and check yourself as the other guy has suggested, rather than spitting the dummy and throwing a hissy fit.  It may help others if what he said is corroborated by you, and you could become "poster of the day"!

Edited June 1, 2018 by norrska

[poanoi]

49 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I have several times been asked by the US Consular Official, before notarizing my Income Affidavit, whether I am aware that the Thai Immigration official at their discretion can ask for corroborating documents as to my sworn statement of monthly income. I have never been so asked by Thai IMM but I bring the documents with me just in case.

 

The reasoning by the US State Department policy of not authenticating any document is in part that it is so easy these days to fabricate or alter any document so I guess all the other countries take on scouts honor from their citizens that they have not tampered with or created on Pageamker or Photoshop out of thin air any hard copy document they hand over to the official.

 

 

i can lie to thais easy enough since they got zero clue what to look for,

but i wont be able to lie to my countrymen since they know what to look for,

and if my embassy were to demand a physical letter from insurance company,

then 99.999% of my countrymen would be incapable of fraud

[JLCrab]

Well as the late Walter Cronkite used to end his evening newscasts: That's the way it is.

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's even worse. I don't recall it being as often as four times a year though.

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I was thinking it was about every three months. Definitely recall visits in the past around March, June/July, and October/November ... so maybe only three times a year.

 

I usually do my renewal mid-December, so the June  6th visit this year would be a stretch for the 6 month window. Not a horrible inconvenience for me to schedule an appointment at the embassy, but there are a number of people with mobility issues who will be inconvenienced.

 

I love the comment on the embassy website regarding making an appointment:

 

Quote

If you arrive more than 15 minutes before or after your appointment you may not be permitted to enter.

 

Coming from Pattaya, reaching the embassy with that degree of precision  probably means  an overnight hotel stay or potentially ending up loitering outside the embassy for a few hours assuming you over compensate for traffic congestion on the road from Pattaya.

[khwaibah]

 

 

 

https://thepattayanews.com/…/united-states-consular-outrea…/

THEPATTAYANEWS.COM

 

United States Consular Outreach on June 6th in Pattaya - The Pattaya News

Pattaya- Don’t want to go to Bangkok? Need a service from the US Embassy? They will be visiting Pattaya on Wednesday June 6th. They have asked that we NOT post the exact time and location as you must register with STEP (Smart Traveler Enrollment Program) to get that information and sign up. The si...

 

[glegolo]

3 hours ago, PhonThong said:

So, what are you saying? If you were not required to show proof or documentation you would just lie? Maybe that is why there is a double standard. As an American, I take an oath to be telling the truth pretty serious.

Yeah I know, you are so committed to swearing and there is no double-standard in USA.... But for me... I guess that you are just like everybody else. There is good people and there is bad people everywhere....

 

glegolo.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

The reasoning by the US State Department policy of not authenticating any document is in part that it is so easy these days to fabricate or alter any document so I guess all the other countries take on scouts honor from their citizens that they have not tampered with or created on Pageamker or Photoshop out of thin air any hard copy document they hand over to the official.

Your guess is pretty much spot-on at least in the case of the British Embassy. They used to insist on originals of supporting evidence, but the last few letters they have provided to me have been based on photocopies which I supplied!

 

Presumably a corollary of the State Department policy to which you referred is that anyone making a false declaration for income notarisation purposes is, I gather, liable to find themselves in deep doo-dah under Federal law - which, in extreme cases, could, I take it, result in passports being revoked and alleged offenders issued with 1-way ETD's to face the music back in the States?

Edited June 1, 2018 by OJAS

[Suradit69]

44 minutes ago, poanoi said:

if my embassy were to demand a physical letter from insurance company,

That may be true if you're from some tiny nanny state where everyone gets their income from some insurance company, but some people in the real world receive their retirement income from company pensions, annuities, social security programs etc.  I expect the clowns at your embassy would be unable to verify the authenticity of all such documentary proof, including from your insurance company, assuming you wanted to go to the bother of forging it. 

 

I imagine in your country a monthly income equivalent to Baht 40,000 or Baht 65,000 is so out of reach that masses of people would be driven to fraud in order to get an extension of stay in Thailand ... or maybe they'd just hire a "visa agent" to get the extension.

 

Do you really think masses or Americans or Australians or whoever living in Thailand have to resort to fraud in order to meet such a low income hurdle?  

In any event my foreign exchange deposits to my Thai bank exceed the minimum ... something Thai immigrations can figure out by looking at my bank book. It's obvious I have the income. Why would I need to fake the embassy income declaration?

 

2 hours ago, poanoi said:

my social circle was almost exclusively americans

Wow. And they all told you they were committing fraud both with embassy declarations and extension applications because they couldn't muster proof of an income of around $2000 a month. Did they swear that or did the bartender notarize their claim.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Suradit69

[poanoi]

4 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

That may be true if you're from some tiny nanny state where everyone gets their income from some insurance company, but some people in the real world receive their retirement income from company pensions, annuities, social security programs etc.  I expect the clowns at your embassy would be unable to verify the authenticity of all such documentary proof, including from your insurance company, assuming you wanted to go to the bother of forging it. 

 

I imagine in your country a monthly income equivalent to Baht 40,000 or Baht 65,000 is so out of reach that masses of people would be driven to fraud in order to get an extension of stay in Thailand ... or maybe they'd just hire a "visa agent" to get the extension.

 

Do you really think masses or Americans or Australians or whoever living in Thailand have to resort to fraud in order to meet such a low income hurdle?  

In any event my foreign exchange deposits to my Thai bank exceed the minimum ... something Thai immigrations can figure out by looking at my bank book. It's obvious I have the income. Why would I need to fake the embassy income declaration?

 

 

my country average income is same level as US,

all but one of my american friends did not qualify

[JLCrab]

11 minutes ago, poanoi said:

my country average income is same level as US,

all but one of my american friends did not qualify

Are you suggesting that there is some situation regarding US Embassy Income affidavits solely based on penalty of false statement to a US  Consular Official of which Thai IMM is not aware?

[Thailand J]

5 hours ago, poanoi said:

that means scouts honor is all the US embassy and immigration require

from US citizens, not advanced just lowered standards.

more specifically no standard at all,

there is no requirement on US citizens at all for

obtaining retirement visa beside being 50 yo

 

the oath is the standard which you refused to accept, in a civilized society an oath is a big deal.

[poanoi]

4 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

the oath is the standard which you refused to accept, in a civilized society an oath is a big deal.

only 1 of my american friends with retirement visa qualified,

-the rest lied and thought nothing of it,

it was the most natural thing in the world to them

to say whatever was needed to get visa on the cheap

Edited June 1, 2018 by poanoi

[Thailand J]

they can go to jail just for that letter.

7 minutes ago, poanoi said:

only 1 of my american friends with retirement visa qualified,

-the rest lied and thought nothing of it,

it was the most natural thing in the world to them

to say whatever was needed to get visa on the cheap

 

[poanoi]

13 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

they can go to jail just for that letter.

 

they can never get caught, neither embassy nor immigration

are authorized to investigate

[Thailand J]

 

Do the embassies from other countries actually verify and confirm your income declaration? They make calls?

I have not seen one so i don't know.

The US embassy letter clearly stated nothing has been verified. If the IO wants he can ask for proof. so far they don't and this is a big loop hole. The loop hole is at the immigration office not at the US embassy as I see it.

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Thailand J

[JLCrab]

9 minutes ago, poanoi said:

they can never get caught, neither embassy nor immigration

are authorized to investigate

So what are you -- Joan of Arc? The policy of the US Department of State across 200 some countries is that no Embassy or Consulate will verify the authenticity of any document directly presented to it. Thailand IMM knows this. At some date maybe they will no longer accept an affidavit from US or any country that gives an affidavit based upon stat dec.

 

However if you want to speed up that process, you can maybe go to IMM HQ in Bangkok and look for this:

[poanoi]

10 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

 

Embassies from other countries actually verify and confirm your income declaration?

 

 

 

my embassy wont issue or confirm anything without

being given proper documentation,

just like any other embassy beside US

[Thailand J]

2 minutes ago, poanoi said:

my embassy wont issue or confirm anything without

being given proper documentation,

just like any other embassy beside US

Documents can be trusted, people can't .. just joking.

[Pilotman]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You asked at the front desk, right?

The credibility of the information you have reported would be higher if you got it from the actual retirement desk.

Please answer that question. I've asked you that repeatedly with no answer. Either you really want to be helpful or you just want to play stupid insult and ego games.


I still advise expats NOT to consider that there really has been a rule change at Jomtien for the time being unless we later get much stronger evidence than you have provided.

If that annoys you I don't care. Your sophomoric insults fall on deaf ears. I care that expats get the correct information.

So again how about telling us once and for all did you get that info you reported at the front of the office or at the actual retirement desk?

It makes a difference.

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Don't you read anything, ?   I said in my reply  that I talked to an IO. I even described her for you.   For Gods sake keep silent if you can't even  be bothered to read posts and retain the information you're given.  All you are doing is confusing the issue for others.   Now  if you can be bothered, go and check what I told you on the other posting.  If you can't read it, get someone who understands plain written  English to do it for you. 

[pontious]

9 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Don't you read anything, ?   I said in my reply  that I talked to an IO. I even described her for you.   For Gods sake keep silent if you can't even  be bothered to read posts and retain the information you're given.  All you are doing is confusing the issue for others.   Now  if you can be bothered, go and check what I told you on the other posting.  If you can't read it, get someone who understands plain written  English to do it for you. 

Did you ask the officer who does the extensions at desk 8. Normally the male officer with glasses. Yes or no.

[glegolo]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

That may be true if you're from some tiny nanny state where everyone gets their income from some insurance company, but some people in the real world receive their retirement income from company pensions, annuities, social security programs etc.  I expect the clowns at your embassy would be unable to verify the authenticity of all such documentary proof, including from your insurance company, assuming you wanted to go to the bother of forging it. 

 

I imagine in your country a monthly income equivalent to Baht 40,000 or Baht 65,000 is so out of reach that masses of people would be driven to fraud in order to get an extension of stay in Thailand ... or maybe they'd just hire a "visa agent" to get the extension.

 

Do you really think masses or Americans or Australians or whoever living in Thailand have to resort to fraud in order to meet such a low income hurdle?  

In any event my foreign exchange deposits to my Thai bank exceed the minimum ... something Thai immigrations can figure out by looking at my bank book. It's obvious I have the income. Why would I need to fake the embassy income declaration?

 

Wow. And they all told you they were committing fraud both with embassy declarations and extension applications because they couldn't muster proof of an income of around $2000 a month. Did they swear that or did the bartender notarize their claim.

Suradit69 -Before Ubonjoe cancels your stupid post I feel like comment it. If you ned to be so bad in your comments about Sweden, that only shows how uneducated you really are about the outside world outside redneck countryside in USA.

 

You have a lovely country and you have ib many ways a bad country. This goes for all countries in the world and of course Sweden as well.. But talk about nanny staes doesn´t help you much... There are countries that actualloy are focusing to ghelp their own citizens instead of spending it all in at least 44 wars since WW II..

 

Tone down your stupid comment about other countres and comment your own..

 

glegolo

[Thailand J]

When the bank machine double printed my bank book i went to ask the front desk what to do, they send me to desk 8 to ask. Base on that I believe information coming from desk 8 is more reliable then coming from the front desk.

[Thailand J]

I thought " freshness" only refers to things that can spoil, such as fruits and relationships.

 

" Sorry your embassy letter is unacceptable, it looks stale. "

 

aham....I am going to Jomtein MOnday to pick up an oil painting that i've ordered, may be I'll goto desk 8 and come back to report.