Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

HEMATOCRIT...pretty important since it can rise pretty dramatically for some people on TRT and require you to donate blood to get it back down to normal levels.

Especially if you do a lot of cardio. I know of a friend who did and he had to donate blood.

[WaveHunter]

15 minutes ago, faraday said:

That's a little bit simplistic; excess aminos can, but not often.

It may be simplistic but it's fact.  It is not a matter of maybe it can happen; it is a metabolic certainty.  Google "gluconeogenesis" + "excess protein".

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Especially if you do a lot of cardio. I know of a friend who did and he had to donate blood.

That's what I've heard.  I do a lot of cardio since I'm into cycling yet I've never had an issue with rising hematocrit, and so I'm confused by that.  Then again, there's a lot about TRT that I find confusing.  That's why I think having a good doctor is so important no matter how much I THINK I know ????

 

 

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

That's what I've heard.  I do a lot of cardio since I'm into cycling yet I've never had an issue with rising hematocrit, and so I'm confused by that.  Then again, there's a lot about TRT that I find confusing.  That's why I think having a good doctor is so important no matter how much I THINK I know ????

 

 

IMHO if you do the tests you can pretty much check yourself. I do half yearly tests and keep the records. So far no bad surprises. 

[eezergood]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Especially if you do a lot of cardio. I know of a friend who did and he had to donate blood.

we are meant to bleed, however most of us don't on a regular basis, donating (that reminds me) should be routine for almost everyone. 

[eezergood]

20 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

That's what I've heard.  I do a lot of cardio since I'm into cycling yet I've never had an issue with rising hematocrit, and so I'm confused by that.  Then again, there's a lot about TRT that I find confusing.  That's why I think having a good doctor is so important no matter how much I THINK I know ????

 

 

Genetic differences, recovery time, age etc..... may i ask which Dr you use? 

[WaveHunter]

On 6/18/2018 at 8:01 AM, dotpoom said:

I had a blood test and my testerone level was low. The doctor recommended one injection 250mg every 30 days, I'm 68 yrs. old. This was costing me 500 Bt. a go, so I bought a packet myself (containing about 20 viles) at the pharmacy and pay the same clinic 100 Baht a go to inject it for me. The result after all this..."Not a blind bit of difference"....feel exactly the same as before (and look the same too, methinks)

   Would I bother again...."No".

  When this lot is finished....no more for me.

 

 

 

 

For your information (and anyone else considering Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT)), you need to understand that it takes a while to see noticeable effects.  You didn't mention what your pre-start testosterone level was, but 250mg per month is EXTREMELY LOW for typical TRT no matter what your Testosterone deficiency is (if the type of testosterone you were injecting was enanthate type, which I'm assuming it was if you were able to purchase 20 vial kits on your own at a pharmacy here in Thailand).  Effective TRT dosages using enanthate are usually a minimum of 125mg PER WEEK.

 

What's more, Testosterone enanthate has an elimination half-life of 4.5 days and a mean residence time of 8.5 days so one injection every 30 days would be completely ineffective on that basis alone, no matter what the dosage was. 

 

Only testosterone undecanoate has a suitable half life for once-a-month injection (18-24 days) but I've never heard of undecanoate being sold in 20 vial kits; only in 4 vial kits.  If I'm incorrect and you were using undecanoate, my apologies.

 

Even so, noticeable effects (i.e.: change in body composition) take at least several months (for me it was 6 months) irregardless of what type of Test you are using.  What's more, it takes about that long to fine-tune precise dosage, not only of the testosterone but also for Anastrozole (Arimidex), which most on TRT require to keep resultant increased estrogen levels in check.  If estrogen levels are allowed to increase, TRT is self-defeating. 

 

Basically, it sounds like your MD did not manage your treatment or advise you properly.  My humble advice would be to not give up on it.  I also had my doubts initially, but I've been on it for 3 years now and am very happy with it...you just need to be patient and have a GOOD doctor to guide you.

 

One other note, self-injecting is VERY easy and safe.  No need to use long, large gauge needles to inject into muscle (IM).  Sub-cutaneous (sub-Q) injections with an insulin syringe works are a lot less scary and safer, and relatively painless.  Even though Test is oil-based, you can draw it out of the vial with an 18 gauge needle, and transfer it to a 27 gauge insulin syringe for injection into the fat layer of the belly or glutes (upper outer quadrant only).  Sub-Q has been proven to be just effective as IM.

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

In connection to my post above, in regard to testosterone undecanoate, I wanted to mention that my doctor recommended enanthate since it is a lot easier / quicker to fine-tune dosage changes due to the shorter half-life.

[faraday]

Wavehunter, are you sure about a trt dose of "minimum 125mg/week" (Enanthate) ?

 

Please provide evidence of this.

 

Doing subq for TRT - which is an oil suspension, & is really not as straightforward as you say.

 

I don't have time to go through your enthusiastic posts, but there are a few inaccuracies.

 

 

[faraday]

Posts on Undeconoate are incorrect.

 

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/3873/smpc

 

 

[Ks45672]

38 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

For your information (and anyone else considering Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT)), you need to understand that it takes a while to see noticeable effects.  You didn't mention what your pre-start testosterone level was, but 250mg per month is EXTREMELY LOW for typical TRT no matter what your Test levels are (if it was enanthate type, which I'm assuming it was if you were able to purchase vials on your own at a pharmacy here in Thailand).  Typical TRT dosages are usually a minimum of 125mg PER WEEK.

 

Noticeable effects (i.e.: change in body composition) take at least several months.  What's more, it takes about that long to fine-tune precise dosage, not only of the testosterone but also for Anastrozole (Arimidex), which most on TRT require to keep resultant increased estrogen levels in check.

 

Basically, it sounds like your MD did not manage your treatment or advice you very effectively.

 

My advice would be to not give up on it.  I also had my doubts initially, but I've been on it for 3 years now and am very happy with it...you just need to be patient and have a GOOD doctor to guide you.

 

One other note, self-injecting is VERY easy and safe.  No need to use long, large gauge needles to inject into muscle (IM).  Sub-cutaneous (sub-Q) injections with an insulin syringe works are a lot less scary and safer, and relatively painless.  Even though Test is oil-based, you can draw it out of the vial with an 18 gauge needle, and transfer it to a 27 gauge insulin syringe for injection into the fat layer of the belly or glutes (upper outer quadrant only).  Sub-Q has been proven to be just effective as IM.

I read a study somewhere that actually said subQ is 20%,better for than IM so you can inject 20% less to reach the same blood levels.... 

 

Haven't tried it yet but probably will, need to read a bit more on it when I get time

 

 

[WaveHunter]

57 minutes ago, faraday said:

Wavehunter, are you sure about a trt dose of "minimum 125mg/week" (Enanthate) ?

 

Please provide evidence of this.

 

Doing subq for TRT - which is an oil suspension, & is really not as straightforward as you say.

 

I don't have time to go through your enthusiastic posts, but there are a few inaccuracies.

 

 

Firstly, you have to consider that the NORMAL AVERAGE endogenous Testosterone level of the male population, and the OPTIMAL level for an individual are two different things entirely.  Average test levels in a male 40-44 is 597 according to most science-based sources.  That does NOT mean this is optimal since  these number are based on a cross section of the general population (which includes many guys with clinically low testosterone - i.e.: under 300 ng/dL)

 

My MD advised me after after several trials starting at 250mg which yielded a VERY high TT of around 1400 ng/dL.  Based on blood tests after 60 days, he backed it off to 125mg which resulted in TT of around 900 ng/dL, which he considered to be "optimal" for me.  I did a lot of reading on my own about dosages and felt comfortable with his recommendation. Of course it also required anastrozole to control the resulting increased estrogen level caused by TRT.

 

TRT dosage is a VERY subjective thing.  No two people react the same way, and the definition of "optimal" dosage is highly open to debate.  I can only speak for myself but at 125mg per week, all of my blood values (TT, FT, Estradiol, RBC, Glucose, and all lipids are in recommended range, and the TRT has vastly improved my body composition (percent body fat, visceral fat, muscle mass).

 

Sure, less than 125mg might be effective, but most sources I've read seem to set 125mg as the low end and 200mg as the high end for TRT.  What's more, most reliable TRT sources seem to consider a TT of around 800-1000 ng/dL to be optimal for an adult male, irregardless of age.  I know a lot of people will debate this, but my personal experience is positive, and most reliable anecdotal accounts seem to concur.

 

Regarding Sub-Q, my doctor recommended it to me for two reasons since I was planning on self-injection; less painful injection and less chance of developing an deep abscess in the muscle.  Since I inject twice a week (for a more stable delivery based on the half life), I don't want the increased risk of developing an abscess, and don't want "track marks from a larger gauge needle, and don't want the pain of a large gauge needle.  I've seen the results of an IM abscess and that is reason enough for me to go sub-Q. 

 

It is actually VERY easy and straight-forward in spite of the fact that test is in oil suspension.  You simply break open an ampule and draw out the complete 1mL contents using an 18-gauge needle and then transfer 0.25 ml into a 27 gauge insulin syringe for your injection, carefully capping the drawing syringe for future use.  It really is a piece of cake provided you keep things sterile. 

 

It takes about 10 seconds I guess to move the oil through an insulin syringe during injection but that's no big deal really.  I've got it down pat;  when a commercial comes on TV, I'll do my injection and be done with it before the show resumes ????

    

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Destiny1990]

34 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Firstly, you have to consider that the NORMAL AVERAGE endogenous Testosterone level of the male population, and the OPTIMAL level for an individual are two different things entirely.  Average test levels in a male 40-44 is 597 according to most science-based sources.  That does NOT mean this is optimal since  these number are based on a cross section of the general population (which includes many guys with clinically low testosterone - i.e.: under 300 ng/dL)

 

My MD advised me after after several trials starting at 250mg which yielded a VERY high TT of around 1400 ng/dL.  Based on blood tests after 60 days, he backed it off to 125mg which resulted in TT of around 900 ng/dL, which he considered to be "optimal" for me.  I did a lot of reading on my own about dosages and felt comfortable with his recommendation. Of course it also required anastrozole to control the resulting increased estrogen level caused by TRT.

 

TRT dosage is a VERY subjective thing.  No two people react the same way, and the definition of "optimal" dosage is highly open to debate.  I can only speak for myself but at 125mg per week, all of my blood values (TT, FT, Estradiol, RBC, Glucose, and all lipids are in recommended range, and the TRT has vastly improved my body composition (percent body fat, visceral fat, muscle mass).

 

Sure, less than 125mg might be effective, but most sources I've read seem to set 125mg as the low end and 200mg as the high end for TRT.  What's more, most reliable TRT sources seem to consider a TT of around 800-1000 ng/dL to be optimal for an adult male, irregardless of age.  I know a lot of people will debate this, but my personal experience is positive.

 

Regarding Sub-Q, my doctor recommended it to me for two reasons since I was planning on self-injection; less painful injection and less chance of developing an deep abscess in the muscle.  Since I inject twice a week (for a more stable delivery based on the half life), I don't want the increased risk of developing an abscess, and don't want "track marks from a larger gauge needle, and don't want the pain of a large gauge needle.  I've seen the results of an IM abscess and that is reason enough for me to go sub-Q. 

 

It is actually VERY easy and straight-forward in spite of the fact that test is in oil suspension.  You simply break open an ampule and draw out the complete 1mL contents using an 18-gauge needle and then transfer 0.25 ml into a 27 gauge insulin syringe for your injection, carefully capping the drawing syringe for future use.  It really is a piece of cake provided you keep things sterile. 

 

It takes about 10 seconds I guess to move the oil through an insulin syringe during injection but that's no big deal really.  I've got it down pat;  when a commercial comes on TV, I'll do my injection and be done with it before the show resumes ????

    

What (negative) side effects did u notice from doing TRT?

sub q does seems to be the more modern approach i agree that.

[WaveHunter]

48 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

...Sure, less than 125mg might be effective, but most sources I've read seem to set 125mg as the low end and 200mg as the high end for TRT. ...

Sorry, I meant 125mg as the low end dosage and 250mg as the high-end dosage for TRT.  I think the reason these values are given is simply because most injectable Test are 250mg/ml...so, the recommended dosage range is convenient (i.e.: a full ampule is 250mg or 1 mL, so 125mg dose is 1/4 of an ampule or 0.25ml). 

 

Anything less than 0.25ml would be difficult to administer in a standard 1cc syringe.

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

45 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

What (negative) side effects did u notice from doing TRT?

sub q does seems to be the more modern approach i agree that.

Negative sides for me (and for most) are transient if TRT is managed correctly.  For me, it lasted about a month I guess and wasn't really that bad.  Bloating was the single biggest thing I noticed, followed by moderate lethargy and some difficulty sleeping, which is pretty much what my MD said to expect. 

 

After a month I consulted with my doctor about the bloating.  A blood test confirmed it was due to an elevated estradiol level (estrogen) caused by the TRT and pretty common, so he started me on anastrozole to restore the testosterone / estrogen balance and all was fine thereafter.  No big deal (1/4 pill a week)

After six weeks, I'd say, all sides were gone, and have pretty much stayed that way for 3 years now.  Of course, the anastrozole needs to be taken as long as you are on Test. 

 

I have to confess, like many, I expected unrealistic results in the short term so I guess being a little depressed at not seeing "miraculous" overnight results was another side effect.  TRT simply takes time to work (months) and the changes are very gradual so patience and positive guidance by a good MD are pretty important.

 

I can only speak for myself but if you stay the course, you're rewarded with positive results.  For me, I think it was around month six that I realized noticeable positive changes in body composition and general energy which were my main complaints prior to starting TRT.

 

Yes, Sub-Q is absolutely the way to go IMHO.  I was VERY squeamish about self injections in the beginning, and I found the idea of Intra muscular injections even more scary.  Sub-Q is a walk in the park, and numerous science-based studies have proven its' efficacy equal to that of IM injections as far as TRT is concerned.

 

My TRT has been pretty trouble-free during the 3 years I've been doing it.  I have blood tests done quarterly since it's so cheap to do them here in Thailand, but twice a year would be fine.  So far, all measured values have been in the recommended ranges (including lipids) and no complications, so all is good ????.

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[faraday]

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/103/5/1715/4939465

 

You're incorrect about about the TRT doses.

 

 

250mg of Enanthate/ week is a bodybuilding dose & not a TRT dose.

 

See Table 5 from the above.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, faraday said:

...You're incorrect about about the TRT doses.

250mg of Enanthate/ week is a bodybuilding dose & not a TRT dose.

See Table 5 from the above. ...

 

As I said, TRT dosages are a VERY debatable topic but practically speaking, my dosage of 125mg is actually close to what you have referenced. The 25mg difference is NOT that significant.

 

More importantly, in practical terms, 125mg/week makes more sense than 100mg since the typical ampule is 250mg/mL for available test ampules you get here in Thailand.  125mg is exactly 1/4 of an ampule or 4 doses per ampule (I do bi-weekly doses).  What are you going to do with the remaining 50mg that's left after 4 full doses?  Throw it away, or risk unsterile contamination from yet another transfer.  Just not worth the trouble or added risk of contamination.

 

Of course if I were using something like Watson's Testosterone that is 200mg/mL, then yeah, I would dose at 100mg per week for the reason I've just described.

 

Regarding bodybuilder dosages, you are wrong; 250mg is NOT a bodybuilder dosage at all.  Classical dosages for bodybuilders start at 500mg and some even go up to 750mg..  That's one fact you can rely on "bro-science" to confirm.  A baseline dosage 500mg of testosterone is like the "golden benchmark" they always talk about, and when it comes to bodybuilding use of steroids, some of those guys really know what they are talking about.  That's not to say I agree with using Testosterone for that purpose.

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

45 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

...125mg is exactly 1/4 of an ampule or 4 doses per ampule (I do bi-weekly doses). ...

I don't know what's the matter with me today LOL!!!!  125mg is one-half of an ampule (not one-quarter), but since I break up my weekly dosage into two injections, that makes four doses per ampule.

 

So, if you dose at 100 mg per week, you are going to end up with 50mg left over which either gets tossed out or you are messing around with an additional and potentially contaminated transfer.

 

Sorry for the confusion ????

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[faraday]

Noblesse oblige.

[faraday]

Ducking & diving to prove your pov.

 

I give up.

 

 

[WaveHunter]

59 minutes ago, faraday said:

Ducking & diving to prove your pov.

 

I give up.

 

 

Firstly, I simply said my dosage is essentially the same as what was shown in the reference you posted as proof that my dosage is incorrect.  100mg vs 125mg is insignificant, especially if you consider that my 125mg broken into four doses will probably only deliver 110mg due to wastage (wastage left in syringe from each injection).  I have an excellent doctor who I'm confident knows far more about proper dosing than you do, and a simple google search of reliable sources will support what I've posted.

 

Regarding body builder dosages of testosterone, facts are facts and easily verified in a google search.  A typical "beginner" steroid cycle is around 500-600 mg/week.  Some advanced bodybuilders may even go higher than 1,000mg per week!  There may be bodybuilders using only 250mg per week but that is NOT considered the norm, and certainly not considered a typical bodybuilder dose.  In all the legitimate science based studies of testosterone as a bodybuilder steroid I've ever come across, the dosages studied were 500mg because that is the benchmark.

 

How is this "Ducking & diving to prove my pov."?  You are simply nit-picking in order to play devil's advocate I guess.  You have done that now with several of my posts.  I only post here to be helpful to other people and I'm real careful to post factual information that's backed up by real science, or in the case of my TRT, by a well qualified endocrinologist.  You're not helping anyone with this type of behavior.

Edited March 24, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

19 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Firstly, I simply said my dosage is essentially the same as what was shown in the reference you posted as proof that my dosage is incorrect.  100mg vs 125mg is insignificant, especially if you consider that my 125mg broken into four doses will probably only deliver 110mg due to wastage (wastage left in syringe from each injection).  I have an excellent doctor who I'm confident knows far more about proper dosing than you do, and a simple google search of reliable sources will support what I've posted.

 

Regarding body builder dosages of testosterone, facts are facts and easily verified in a google search.  A typical "beginner" steroid cycle is around 500-600 mg/week.  Some advanced bodybuilders may even go higher than 1,000mg per week!  There may be bodybuilders using only 250mg per week but that is NOT considered the norm, and certainly not considered a typical bodybuilder dose.  In all the legitimate science based studies of testosterone as a bodybuilder steroid I've ever come across, the dosages studied were 500mg because that is the benchmark.

 

How is this "Ducking & diving to prove my pov."?  You are simply nit-picking in order to play devil's advocate I guess.  You have done that now with several of my posts.  I only post here to be helpful to other people and I'm real careful to post factual information that's backed up by real science, or in the case of my TRT, by a well qualified endocrinologist.  You're not helping anyone with this type of behavior.

I have to agree that 500+ a week is a bodybuilder dose.. (beginner) it often goes up much higher.

 

T

[robblok]

23 hours ago, faraday said:

Wavehunter, are you sure about a trt dose of "minimum 125mg/week" (Enanthate) ?

 

Please provide evidence of this.

 

Doing subq for TRT - which is an oil suspension, & is really not as straightforward as you say.

 

I don't have time to go through your enthusiastic posts, but there are a few inaccuracies.

 

 

I am still doing IM but i read more and more about them doing it subQ. I have done HGH subQ. 

 

Many sites now promote doing test E for TRT subQ. What would be your problem with it ? I havent tested it yet but I am considering it as it would mean less scarring on muscles.

 

As for TRT doses I seen higher doses for TRT named too. 

[WaveHunter]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

I have to agree that 500+ a week is a bodybuilder dose.. (beginner) it often goes up much higher.

 

T

Its' crazy what some of those guys do!  I saw a Youtube video from a BB who says he does 3,000mg a week of testosterone (I swear...he said 3,000!!!) when he does a AAS cycle, and that's a cycle that's stacked with other steroids as well!  OMG!!!!  IMHO...not very smart AT ALL!  I'm sure he'll look real swole... laying in a casket at his funeral soon!

Edited March 25, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Ks45672]

22 hours ago, faraday said:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/103/5/1715/4939465

 

You're incorrect about about the TRT doses.

 

 

250mg of Enanthate/ week is a bodybuilding dose & not a TRT dose.

 

See Table 5 from the above.

250mg or even 300 a week maybe a bit high but if you train hard 2x a day your levels will deplete faster than someone who doesn't get off the couch watching TV.... 

 

I don't think there is any standard dose that works for everyone and many people think the optimal range can be as high as 1200 naturally but we all metabolise it differently 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

Its' crazy what some of those guy do!  I saw a Youtube video from a BB who says he does 3,000mg a week of testosterone (I swear...he said 3,000!!!) on his AAS cycles, and that's a cycle that stacked with other steroids!  IMHO...not very smart AT ALL!

To be honest, I don't really read that much about other people their cycles. But if I do its usually over 1000 mg a week. Their choice not mine. I done a cycle of 750 mg once when i first came here. 

[WaveHunter]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

To be honest, I don't really read that much about other people their cycles. But if I do its usually over 1000 mg a week. Their choice not mine. I done a cycle of 750 mg once when i first came here. 

I'm not into steroids for body building or PED but I read a well received scientific study into bodybuilder use of testosterone somewhere, and it found that any dosage above 500mg per week was only marginally beneficial.  I know we're off-topic now, but just sayin...

[robblok]

1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

I'm not into steroids for body building or PED but I read a well received scientific study into bodybuilder use of testosterone somewhere, and it found that any dosage above 500mg per week was only marginally beneficial.  I know we're off-topic now, but just sayin...

I doubt that your right.. for a first cycle 500 might be enough but later on more is needed. I know this from friends who used it. First cycle 500 worked.. second cycle 500 did not work. 

 

Studies are one thing but in this case i prefer the information on bodybuilding forums as the group of people using is far larger.

[WaveHunter]

24 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

250mg or even 300 a week maybe a bit high but if you train hard 2x a day your levels will deplete faster than someone who doesn't get off the couch watching TV.... 

 

I don't think there is any standard dose that works for everyone and many people think the optimal range can be as high as 1200 naturally but we all metabolise it differently 

Totally agree that there are no real hard & fast benchmarks for TRT.  The best thing you can do is find a MD who you feel confident in and follow their recommendations.  My MD actually started me at 200mg (I said 250mg in a previous post but forgot it was Watson's Test Cyp which is 200mg/ml).  I got crazy high TT reading of around 1400 on my follow up bloods a month later so he halved my dosage to 125 which brought it down to around 900 ng/dL where it pretty much as stayed (and that is based on 125mg injected per week)

 

My doctor wanted me around 900 - 1,000 ng/dL.  He felt that was "optimal".  He defined "optimal" as getting the maximum effects of testosterone without any abnormalities in blood values (other than LH and FSH obviously).  Furthermore, his feeling was that optimal TT levels were not as age dependent as some might feel.  In other words, whether you are 30 or 60, he feels the optimal range should be around 1000 (and many other knowledgable TRT doctors who really know their stuff seem to agree). 

 

I don't trust ANYBODY (including doctors) LOL, so naturally I did A LOT of reading after he told me that, and most of what I read agrees with his advice, and I can personally say I feel fine after 3 years of TRT at this level of TT, and all of my blood values are staying in the normal ranges.  So...Feeling fine and having good blood tests are all the benchmarks I need  ????

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

22 minutes ago, robblok said:

I doubt that your right.. for a first cycle 500 might be enough but later on more is needed. I know this from friends who used it. First cycle 500 worked.. second cycle 500 did not work. 

 

Studies are one thing but in this case i prefer the information on bodybuilding forums as the group of people using is far larger.

Actually you're right...I agree with that.  The study I read was for first-time users.  I remember reading that bodybuilders that do subsequent cycles have to increase dosage due to receptor habituation.  But still, how does a bodybuilder get to the point where they need 3,000mg like that YouTube guy?  I dunno, but to me that just sounds insane.

 

I also agree with you about bodybuilder forums.  I may not agree with using steroids for BB and PED but some of those guys seriously know what they are talking about, and since a lot of that type of use of AAS is pretty underground and not formally studied like at universities, body builder forums are the only place you're going to find that information.  

 

You may have to sift a lot of fiction from fact on those forums but you can certainly find some pretty valuable information on them for sure!

Edited March 25, 2019 by WaveHunter