Small AA Group - Tradition 3

[likerdup1]

 
If I'm not getting better every year, I'm doing something wrong.   Progress, not perfection.  Which means I'm still recovering.
 
 

I think you are missing out on something amazing .. really being recovered. I know loads of people in AA who have been members for years who have never taken the time to study the first 164 pages of our basic text and really try to understand it. going to meetings and not drinking in between plus doing a bit of sharing never gave me an understanding of what the program of Alcoholics Anonymous really is. it was when I met my third sponsor who was a big book enthusiasts that I discovered just how practical and simple the 12 Steps really are. the 10th step promises are some of the most wonderful in the book page 84. the 10th step promises or what a recovered alcoholic really looks like.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[likerdup1]

On 9/1/2018 at 10:07 AM, mogandave said:

 

Aren’t the asking for help by walking in the door?

Nobody made me beg when I came in...

Forgive me but to me this is a problem. Assumptions..

 

We have too much miscommunication, assumption, misunderstanding of what the AA program truly is. The fellowship and the program are two different things. Until somebody actually asks me for help I don't know if they want it or not. And in AA asking for help means we suggest the program - IF they are really alcoholic. My current sponsor actually vetted me to see if I was really alcoholic and I applaud him for it! He is a rock star AA in my view having started two very popular meetings, very successful in business and over 30 years sober.

 

Another problem is since many AA's don't really know the program they will pounce on new people that show up to meetings making assumption after assumption that they are alcoholic and need/want help. This is a big mistake, it can drive some people out of the meetings. I have seen people in Pattaya share at new commers assuming they are alcoholic etc. etc.. this is so bad .. I was appalled at the insensitivity and lack of knowledge about how to approach a new commer

 

The actual AA program takes work. Sometimes A LOT OF work if you want to "thoroughly follow the path" and not fail. So we cannot assume anybody is up to the task unless we ::

1) do a good job of sharing our experience with drinking alcoholicly in order for new people to identify if they are alcoholic or not ( alergy of the body and obsession of the mind laid out in the Dr. opinion and more about alcoholism in the big book.

2) explain what the AA program is and what is designed to do. Which is actually very simple. "Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of the steps. (Step 12) That AA's solution for recovery is having a spiritual awakening through doing the steps thus bringing about recovery and lasting and contended life without alcohol.

3) Find out if they are willing to go to any lengths and actually do the step work under direction from a sponsor (hopefully one that is not a BS sponsor but will sponsor them out of the big book)

 

Step 5 - a really thorough step 5 takes a lot of humility and willingness.

Step 9 can be a huge chunk of work and takes a lot of courage. So assuming somebody is up to the task is a big mistake.

step 12 is a challenge .. big one for some people. It takes study, courage, practice.

The program of AA is simple but NOT easy.

 

I will regularly let men know I am available to sponsor and talk with them after meetings. But if they ask me to sponsor them I will ask them ARE YOU WILLING TO GO TO ANY LENGTHS to stay sober? If not I will not sponsor them.

 

My first sponsor asked me two questions the evening I met  him.

1) Why do you want to stay sober?

2) Are you willing to do anything it takes to recover.

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by likerdup1

[mogandave]

If they are so messed up why are they so popular and effective? I think a lot of this is gossip. Clancy has helped a lot of low bottom drunks out of the Bowery in LA and into recovery and society.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Exactly. I’ve been to the Pacific Group and as far as I can tell, everyone is welcome, with or without a tie.

Yes, they recommend you dress nice, but no one is barred from the meetings for wearing shorts or because the secretary doesn’t like them.

Alcoholics need to learn to follow instructions. They do that at Pacific Group.

What’s wrong with dressing nice anyway? Generally, the nicer people dress, the nicer they act.

It is amusing that people expect him to come up with a different story every time he speaks.

Unless you’re making stuff up, you only have one story...

[Neeranam]

23 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Alcoholics need to learn to follow instructions. They do that at Pacific Group.

Alcoholics do the opposite of what you tell them, in my experience.

I would not have gone to this group, but I heard that it was good for low bottom drunks, maybe not AA though. I'd like to know if it is supported by the higher powers of the fellowship.

Did you see anyone there with a beard or wearing tennis shoes(God forbid!)?

Are the newcomers on special chairs? 

 

I knew someone who went to this group who said, as a member, he HAD to wear a shirt and tie.

 

 

[likerdup1]

58 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Alcoholics do the opposite of what you tell them, in my experience.

I would not have gone to this group, but I heard that it was good for low bottom drunks, maybe not AA though. I'd like to know if it is supported by the higher powers of the fellowship.

Did you see anyone there with a beard or wearing tennis shoes(God forbid!)?

Are the newcomers on special chairs? 

 

I knew someone who went to this group who said, as a member, he HAD to wear a shirt and tie.

 

 

One of the best things I did for myself was to finally give up, surrender and become willing to follow direction. So what exactly did I do? I asked for help in a share back in 1993. After the meeting my first sponsor approached me. He told me I could recover and never had to drink again IF I followed his instructions. First they were simple, go to meetings and call him once a day, then the directions he gave were the steps.

 

Hitting bottom is important in that we finally give up trying to quit on our own ideas. I will not sponsor any man who doesn't follow direction. I have had many sponsees over the years. The ones who are curious, follow through with direction and are eager to do the work have great success. The ones who don't follow the directions (basically doing the steps out of the book) I will drop and tell them why. I don't co depend any alcoholics lack of willingness to do the work. All we have is the steps to give and our experience with doing them. Either I do the program or I don't. There is no "coming in and going out" there is only doing or not doing IMHO

[mogandave]

Alcoholics do the opposite of what you tell them, in my experience.
I would not have gone to this group, but I heard that it was good for low bottom drunks, maybe not AA though. I'd like to know if it is supported by the higher powers of the fellowship.
Did you see anyone there with a beard or wearing tennis shoes(God forbid!)?
Are the newcomers on special chairs? 
 
I knew someone who went to this group who said, as a member, he HAD to wear a shirt and tie.

 

Was the guys lips moving when he told you that?

Again, these are strong, structured meetings where guys learn to take direction. “You can tell an alcoholic, but you can’t tell ‘em much...) and lot of guys don’t like being told they can’t take NyQuil and can’t bang newcomers. They get pissed off and go talk smack about the meeting.

People say the same crap about “Bellflower Big Book”, (a similar meeting to Pac Group) that it was a cult, you had to wear a tie and on an on. Then you go there and there great meetings with nice people.

I don’t have a beard, but I was wearing jeans, a button down shirt and work boots (what I always wore back then) and I felt nothing but welcome at both groups.

Were most of the men wearing ties? Yes. Were all the men wearing ties? No.

To be clear, if you were going to a meeting you liked, and the guys were all wearing ties, would you not get a tie or two and start buffing your shoes?

When you dress nice, people treat you better, you treat people better, and you feel better about yourself. What’s wrong with that?

I don’t remember anyone being told where to sit, but what’s wrong with identifying who the newcomers are?

What’s wrong with getting newcomers hooked up with sponsors?

You sound like you like a well structured meeting, yes? You’d probably like it.

[impulse]

9 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Alcoholics do the opposite of what you tell them, in my experience.

I would not have gone to this group, but I heard that it was good for low bottom drunks, maybe not AA though. I'd like to know if it is supported by the higher powers of the fellowship.

Did you see anyone there with a beard or wearing tennis shoes(God forbid!)?

Are the newcomers on special chairs? 

 

I knew someone who went to this group who said, as a member, he HAD to wear a shirt and tie.

 
A lot of SoCal meetings are run on the dictates of one individual, and often become monuments to that one guy as opposed to following the traditions.  I spent 3 of my first 10 years in SoCal and learned to avoid those meetings like the plague.

 

My understanding of "Clancy's meeting" is that speakers are required to wear a tie, and those who are honored with the tasks of greeting, setting up, and serving the coffee as well.  The masses that attend are not required to dress the part.  The front X rows are reserved for special people by someone placing X business cards corresponding to the number of friends they expect.  Again, that's 2nd hand because I never had the desire to attend, but it sounds similar to a lot of AA meetings in SoCal that I attended.  I also avoided the meetings frequented by movie stars and famous bad boys and girls (that was before Interweb celebrities, thank goodness)

 

All that said, they serve a very useful purpose for some alkies, and there are 1000 other meetings in the area every day for those of us who don't care to worship at the feet of the masters (my pettiness- but that's the way I felt about what we called "see-and-be-seen" or "high & firm bottom" meetings). 

 

I always admired sponsors who could size up a newcomer and know exactly how to deal with them.  Some needed love and attention, others needed a kick in the ass.  I was great at working with the former, and sucked at the latter- because of my history.  To my credit, I knew my limitations.  To my dishonor, I couldn't help a lot of guys and shuffled a lot to the tougher sponsors.  Some guys don't understand that one size doesn't fit all, and IMO they do more damage than good.  Even so, they help a lot of guys, but while driving off others who hopefully come back and find a different sponsor.

 

Anyway, rant over.  It works if you work it, but don't give up if your first AA meeting isn't a good one.  Or if your first sponsor isn't.   Some have universal appeal, others work great for some drunks but not for other kinds. If they were all great for everyone, there wouldn't be new ones popping up all the time.

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by impulse

[likerdup1]

On 8/30/2018 at 9:20 PM, scorecard said:

IMHO folks who are alcoholic would want to join a real AA group which is focused on one thing only, alcoholism, not a group which is a mixed-bag of quite different problems.

 

 

You could assume that in your humble opinion, but my experience is I had very little idea of what alcoholism really is until well into many hundreds of meetings and finally meeting my 3rd sponsor who took me through the Big Book of alcoholics anonymous. If you study the book you find that about the first 3rd of the program part of the book (Dr. opinion and first 164 pages) is AA's description "of the problem as we see it". It is an allergy of the body coupled with a mental obsession. They supple several stories (including Bill W's story) to illustrate the illness called alcoholism.  I knew I had a problem but once I studied the big book and it's description of alcoholism I finally go answers as to WHY I COULD NOT CONTROL MY DRINKING. That is the essence of the problem. Lack of control -- there fore I am powerless and require a power greater than myself to give me the power to abstain for good and all.

 

What REAL alcoholics need is a good groups that focus on helping new people identify. My sponsor started such a group in LA recently. They are growing like mad ... just like the Pacific group which also places huge emphasis on the program AS IT IS OUTLINED in the Big Book. Unfortunately you will find A LOT of meetings where people don't even have Big Books available and just talk about a lot of stuff other than how to recover from alcoholism the AA way.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

You could assume that in your humble opinion, but my experience is I had very little idea of what alcoholism really is until well into many hundreds of meetings and finally meeting my 3rd sponsor who took me through the Big Book of alcoholics anonymous. If you study the book you find that about the first 3rd of the program part of the book (Dr. opinion and first 164 pages) is AA's description "of the problem as we see it". It is an allergy of the body coupled with a mental obsession. They supple several stories (including Bill W's story) to illustrate the illness called alcoholism.  I knew I had a problem but once I studied the big book and it's description of alcoholism I finally go answers as to WHY I COULD NOT CONTROL MY DRINKING. That is the essence of the problem. Lack of control -- there fore I am powerless and require a power greater than myself to give me the power to abstain for good and all.

 

What REAL alcoholics need is a good groups that focus on helping new people identify. My sponsor started such a group in LA recently. They are growing like mad ... just like the Pacific group which also places huge emphasis on the program AS IT IS OUTLINED in the Big Book. Unfortunately you will find A LOT of meetings where people don't even have Big Books available and just talk about a lot of stuff other than how to recover from alcoholism the AA way.

 

I well accept your comment, and you missed my point. 

 

 

[mogandave]

 
I well accept your comment, and you missed my point. 
 
 

What was your point?

[Acharn]

When I was new to AA, in Northern Virginia, there were so many groups available that it was easy to find one that suited your needs. The first meeting I went to was very unfriendly. Not one person spoke to me after the meeting. Luckily the next meeting I went to was very different, and I found my kind of people there. I was told, early on, that AA grows through resentment. All you need to start a new group is a coffeepot and a resentment. I would recommend having a copy of The Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve, but it's up to you. If the people in that Pacific Group stay sober that way, good for them, but every group I have gone to warns not to prohibit medicine or medical advice. Much of what's in the Big Book can be turned into a cult. There used to be a site on the internet called Agent Orange, which pointed out the similarities between material in the Big Book and the Oxford Group, a zealot cult. Most groups I've attended have not done that, and are more anarchist than anything else.

[mogandave]

So how do you feel about medical marijuana?

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

So how do you feel about medical marijuana?

Members of AA shouldn't give medical advice, I was told.

[mogandave]

Members of AA shouldn't give medical advice, I was told.

What if the AA member is a doctor?

If you were sponsoring someone and they were sober for a year or so and decided to get a prescription for marijuana to treat the stress of their new job, you would not advise against it?

I generally have more faith in what I see and experience than what I’m told.

Plenty of people in the Pacific Group that are on anti depressants, some of them even wear ties...

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

What if the AA member is a doctor?

If you were sponsoring someone and they were sober for a year or so and decided to get a prescription for marijuana to treat the stress of their new job, you would not advise against it?

I generally have more faith in what I see and experience than what I’m told.

Plenty of people in the Pacific Group that are on anti depressants, some of them even wear ties...
 

 

Of course a doctor can give medical advice.

 

 

[mogandave]

Of course a doctor can give medical advice.
 
 

What if their doctorate is in statistics?

What about the marijuana question, why not answer that?

[Neeranam]

45 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

What if their doctorate is in statistics?

What about the marijuana question, why not answer that?
 

 

Why are you asking me?

[mogandave]

Why are you asking me?

Because when I asked:

How do you feel about medical marijuana?

You replied something like:

AA members should not give medical advice.

Which is silly, because is suggesting someone quit drinking not medical advice?

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Because when I asked:

How do you feel about medical marijuana?

You replied something like:

AA members should not give medical advice.

Which is silly, because is suggesting someone quit drinking not medical advice?

 

Do you smoke marihuana?

[mogandave]

Do you smoke marihuana?

No I don’t, do you?

But if I have a prescription, I can smoke grass and still keep my sobriety date, correct?

If not, why?

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

No I don’t, do you?

But if I have a prescription, I can smoke grass and still keep my sobriety date, correct?

If not, why?

 

I don't because it makes me paranoid.

 

Why are you so concerned about getting a prescription for grass?

 

Your sobriety date is entirely up to you.

 

One of the founders of AA took LSD, and probably didn't change his sobriety date.

 

For me, any drug like that is dangerous, as in the past they always lead to my drug of no choice, alcohol.

 

[mogandave]

I don't because it makes me paranoid.

 

Why are you so concerned about getting a prescription for grass?

 

Your sobriety date is entirely up to you.

 

One of the founders of AA took LSD, and probably didn't change his sobriety date.

 

For me, any drug like that is dangerous, as in the past they always lead to my drug of no choice, alcohol.

 

 

You’re right of course.

[Wilson Smith]

19 hours ago, mogandave said:

So how do you feel about medical marijuana?

Its an outside issue. AA itself has no option. To Thine Own Self Be True!

[mogandave]

Its an outside issue. AA itself has no option. To Thine Own Self Be True!

Some meetings have smoke-breaks. If some AA members were smoking grass during an AA meeting smoke-break, you’d think nothing of it, correct?

An outside issue as it were....

[likerdup1]

Personally I won't sponsor anyone that smokes weed as it is a strong drug that can alter a persons mood dramatically and people have many different experiences smoking it. (Myself it makes me paranoid!) I stopped smoking weed long before I got off booze and other drugs.

 

The point I think many people miss about AA is that the program itself is designed to bring about a spiritual awakening.

IMHO being high on pot or other drugs get's in the way of achieving that. And yes Bill W. did do LSD BRIEFLY but that was because he was using it to try and bring about the spiritual experience again that he had before in the towns hospital. Bill W. was not an LSD addict and did not take it for a long period of time. They were "experimenting" with it but gave it up.

 

The twelfth step says: "Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps..." 

 

so the ENTIRE PROGRAM OF AA IS meant to bring about a spiritual awakening. THAT is what give recovery from alcoholism. NOT abstaining on ones own will power, that fails REAL alcoholics. They can never do it for very long and with contentment.

 

To be high on other substances is basically trading one problem for another.

 

I  tread carefully when a men ask me to sponsor them when they have told me they have recently gone on doctor prescribed phys-co pharmaceuticals because so many alcoholics as well as addicts are mis-diagnosed as having depression, anxiety etc.. because THE ARE NOT HONEST with their doctors. (Me included)

 

Basically IN MY EXPERIENCE and I am not a doctor - someone who is high on another substance will have trouble with having a spiritual awakening.

 

Being high on pot instead of drunk on booze is just trading one mood altering substance for another IMHO.

[gerryBScot]

An enormous relief that some common sense has erupted in this thread and that real AAs are prevailing. I always thought one of our unifying characteristics was that critical element in our journeys to rock bottom : most of us thought we weren't alcoholics! The deception we wove in our own sick little minds! When I was in doubt, and expressed that doubt at a meeting, a total stranger , a person I had never met before or since, offered the view that I was better off in AA pretending I was an alcoholic than in a bar thinking I wasn't. That stranger, through those wise words, might  have saved my life. What might some so-called 'real alcoholic' of the type that posts here have advised?!!!!

[MrPatrickThai]

On 9/28/2018 at 9:43 AM, likerdup1 said:

Basically IN MY EXPERIENCE and I am not a doctor - someone who is high on another substance will have trouble with having a spiritual awakening. 

Richard Alpert(Ram Dass) or Bob Marley would say differently.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 9/28/2018 at 9:43 AM, likerdup1 said:

Basically IN MY EXPERIENCE and I am not a doctor - someone who is high on another substance will have trouble with having a spiritual awakening. 

Richard Alpert(Ram Dass) or Bob Marley would say differently.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:06 AM, gerryBScot said:

What might some so-called 'real alcoholic' of the type that posts here have advised?!!!! 

Maybe, 'go out until you're under no illusion that your an alcoholic'. Personally, there are low bottom drunks everywhere that can be helped rather than wasting time on 'I drank 3 beers a night and feel sad in the morning' kinda drinkers.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:06 AM, gerryBScot said:

What might some so-called 'real alcoholic' of the type that posts here have advised?!!!! 

Maybe, 'go out until you're under no illusion that your an alcoholic'. Personally, there are low bottom drunks everywhere that can be helped rather than wasting time on 'I drank 3 beers a night and feel sad in the morning' kinda drinkers.