Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[The Renegade]

Paragraph 3 of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is far too difficult for all the highly educated remainers to comprehend

 

Quote

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

By what twisted logic can you remain a member of the SM / CU when all EU Treaties have ceased to apply ?

[candide]

52 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why do they think we have gone crazy when Macron has openly admitted if the the French were offered a referendum on leaving the EU, they would probably vote leave.

 

It's not what he said. He said exactly: 'Probably, in a similar context. But our context was very different"

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

It's not what he said. He said exactly: 'Probably, in a similar context. But our context was very different"

Which ever way you want to look at it, he said,

"The French President believes his country might also have quit the bloc if offered the choice in an referendum."

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Which ever way you want to look at it, he said,

"The French President believes his country might also have quit the bloc if offered the choice in an referendum."

This one you mean ?

 

Quote

Emmanuel Macron: French would 'probably' vote to leave EU

 

https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-french-would-probably-vote-to-leave-eu-11216872

[tebee]

40 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Paragraph 3 of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is far too difficult for all the highly educated remainers to comprehend

 

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

By what twisted logic can you remain a member of the SM / CU when all EU Treaties have ceased to apply ?

Other non EU counties are already members of the SM and/or CU - The easiest route would be EEA membership, but that's not the only possibility.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Other non EU counties are already members of the SM and/or CU - The easiest route would be EEA membership, but that's not the only possibility.

Does membership of the EEC cease being ruled by Brussels ? Remove the supremacy of the ECJ or stop the £ Billions pouring into Brussels ?

 

Then it is NOT leaving the EU.

 

I do not know how to make it any simpler for those that have difficulty in understanding what leaving the EU means.

[bristolboy]

21 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

This one you mean ?

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-french-would-probably-vote-to-leave-eu-11216872

Gotta love those single words in quotes. Since I'm sure you wouldn't deliberately be misleading, I suspect this is how your mind processed the relevant passage:

"Asked whether a Leave or Remain vote in France could have ended with the same result, Mr Macron told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "Yes, probably. Probably in a similar context. But our context was very different so I don't want to take any bets."

 

 

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Snip apologies. But the below is economically critical to the UK's future trading deal.

 

Japan, China, Australia, USA all do OK outside this closed shop. Why can't the UK!

I doubt many Aussies would regard they do ok, but the other three are the world's largest consumer markets outside the EU single market and can stand alone by nature of their massive consumer demand.

 

The UK, by being a EU member of the single market already trades, not only with the EU members but with over 60 countries outside the EU. Just look in your large supermarkets to see the vast diversity of goods from all over the world. After Brexit many goods could disappear and those left could become more expensive Why? See below.

 

If the UK stands alone it will need to make new trade agreements with whoever is willing to trade on an individual country (or maybe region) basis - somehow I don't see that happening in reality, because not only is it a lengthy process that could take years, what competitive advantage does the UK have over what it has now?

 

For example, I could be a pineapple and exotic fruit exporter who could ship millions of fruit boxes to the EU single market, even with tariffs in place and make a larger turnover profit than trading only several thousand boxes to the UK (which has a consumer market 17% the size of the EU) and if so, at a higher transport cost price. It wouldn't be economically viable. 

 

That is what the UK will have to contend with if they leave the EU single market. Why that's even on the Brexit list is an economic misjudgement to put it mildly, and not what the voters voted for - and why May is trying to cherry-pick/negotiate a trade deal for goods with the EU.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

I wonder if the palpable panic amongst Brexit supporters this week has anything to do with the U.K. government simply having nothing to put on the negotiating table?

 

 

[stephenterry]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I wonder if the palpable panic amongst Brexit supporters this week has anything to do with the U.K. government simply having nothing to put on the negotiating table?

 

 

It doesn't take much to reason that the soon to be produced 'white paper'  - which should have been produced and submitted to parliament and ratified and agreed before Article 50 was enacted - would contain a cobbled compromise that hardly satisfies both leavers and remainers, but would be regarded as 'cherry-picking by the EU, and thus materially rejected.  

 

It's so obvious...

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

30 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

That is what the UK will have to contend with if they leave the EU single market.

That is what was said in the referendum and that is what all the people I know voted to leave expected and still do. You may have voted differently but the terms soft Brexit just didn't exist. Brexit meant leaving the SM and CU.

 

30 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

If the UK stands alone it will need to make new trade agreements with whoever is willing to trade on an individual country (or maybe region) basis - somehow I don't see that happening in reality, because not only is it a lengthy process that could take years, what competitive advantage does the UK have over what it has now?

It works both ways other countries outside the EU can also trade with the UK. Finally people are waking up to what the bureaucratic EU is about. Protectionism and certainly not the free and democratic organisation it claims to be.

 

30 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

After Brexit many goods could disappear and those left could become more expensive Why? See below.

That is pure scaremongering and factually incorrect. Tell me what foods from the EU are exclusive to the EU and can't be purchased elsewhere.

 

We may have to forget wine from France or cheese but there are perfectly other great examples around the world.

 

I will say the EU have done a great job at brainwashing and frightening people into believing a country couldn't survive or go it alone.  It simple isn't true.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Laughing Gravy

[stephenterry]

The Uk could survive, sure. But you're possible not old enough to have experienced rationing after WW2. Trade agreements are complex and could take years to instigate. As for foreign traders it's naive to think ideology is of any concern to them, only profit.

 

Of course the UK could purchase elsewhere, at a cost, but as I posted above why the hell should we need to when we already belong to the largest single market on our doorstep?  

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

The Uk could survive, sure. But you're possible not old enough to have experienced rationing after WW2.

You are correct though my parents were and instilled the philosophy that I couldn't leave any food on my plate because of rationing.?

Comparing the end of a world war and leaving a 27 nation of trading is... well hardly anywhere like the same thing. My parents talk about the first time they saw a banana, as an example but this was due to various factors.

4 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Of course the UK could purchase elsewhere, at a cost, but as I posted above why the hell should we need to when we already belong to the largest single market on our doorstep?  

Well because that market  (EU) is dictating what we can and can't do and who we can trade with plus lots of other things like laws immigration etc etc.. It also goes the other way and the EU relies on the UK buying their products (is Ireland listening) so we could go elsewhere.

 

Sadly over the 40 plus years the EU has made the UK a country that can't feed itself like it use too with weakened agriculture (France have corned that market). We still have the seas and regardless what people say it is a 'bargaining chip'.  Other than that I would be happy for the price of fish to come down in the UK and people had the ability to afford cheaper fish as one example. 

[stephenterry]

RE: LG  Well because that market  (EU) is dictating what we can and can't do and who we can trade with plus lots of other things like laws immigration etc etc.. It also goes the other way and the EU relies on the UK buying their products (is Ireland listening) so we could go elsewhere.

 

Like about trading with 90 countries world-wide, as opposed to the odd few we manage to agree a treaty with by 2025.  As far as goods are concerned it's a no-brainer, to stay in the single market, although of course the EU would not permit cherry-picking the four freedoms, so it's all or nothing, I guess. 

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, candide said:

It's not what he said. He said exactly: 'Probably, in a similar context. But our context was very different"

 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Which ever way you want to look at it, he said,

"The French President believes his country might also have quit the bloc if offered the choice in an referendum."

Adding quote marks on a sentence does not make it a quote. He said exactly: "Probably, in a similar context. But our context was very different"

So he thinks that if the context had been similar the French would probably have voted for a Frexit, but also added that the context was different.

Actually even Le Pen's extreme right party has barred its former anti-EU rethorics from its political platform, as it was not any more trusted by its electorate.

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, candide said:

 

Adding quote marks on a sentence does not make it a quote. He said exactly: "Probably, in a similar context. But our context was very different"

So he thinks that if the context had been similar the French would probably have voted for a Frexit, but also added that the context was different.

Actually even Le Pen's extreme right party has barred its former anti-EU rethorics from its political platform, as it was not any more trusted by its electorate.

I quoted a newspaper article, are you saying I don't need quotation marks?

 

“Quotation Marks” 
• Newspaper articles 
• Magazine articles 
• Poems 
• Short stories 
• Songs 
• Episodes of radio programs 
• Episodes of TV shows 
• Chapters of books 
 
• Subdivisions of books

[candide]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I quoted a newspaper article, are you saying I don't need quotation marks?

 

“Quotation Marks” 
• Newspaper articles 
• Magazine articles 
• Poems 
• Short stories 
• Songs 
• Episodes of radio programs 
• Episodes of TV shows 
• Chapters of books 
 
• Subdivisions of books

I may not have been clear enough.

You wrote "he said" then quoted a sentence from a newspaper, suggesting that it is precisely what Macron said (the exact quote I provided comes from the same article, by the way). "He said" and "Sky said" are not equivalent assertions.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

That is what was said in the referendum and that is what all the people I know voted to leave expected and still do. You may have voted differently but the terms soft Brexit just didn't exist. Brexit meant leaving the SM and CU.

 

It works both ways other countries outside the EU can also trade with the UK. Finally people are waking up to what the bureaucratic EU is about. Protectionism and certainly not the free and democratic organisation it claims to be.

 

That is pure scaremongering and factually incorrect. Tell me what foods from the EU are exclusive to the EU and can't be purchased elsewhere.

 

We may have to forget wine from France or cheese but there are perfectly other great examples around the world.

 

I will say the EU have done a great job at brainwashing and frightening people into believing a country couldn't survive or go it alone.  It simple isn't true.

But what economists have observed as universally true is that the closer geographically 2 nations are, the more they trade with each other.

Britain will discover that distance still matters in trade

https://www.ft.com/content/964afa06-8f0b-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 minute ago, stephenterry said:

 

What complete and utter garbage, how on earth do you make this stuff up ?

where did you dream that up from. You really should do more research about trade and shipping before putting forward such ridiculous arguments

I cannot be held responsible if you post inaccurate nonsense.

 

This is what flaming means. To engage in an online argument usually involving unfounded personal attacks. 

 

Above are three examples of your flaming.  And, yes, you can and will be held responsible for breaching TV rules. I hope you enjoy your posting holiday.

 

 

 

Thanks very much 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

I may not have been clear enough.

You wrote "he said" then quoted a sentence from a newspaper, suggesting that it is precisely what Macron said (the exact quote I provided comes from the same article, by the way). "He said" and "Sky said" are not equivalent assertions.

So you think that Macron would actually say verbatum, The French President believes his country might also have quit the bloc if offered the choice in an referendum."

 

I

 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

No France as always had a love/hate relationship with us - but now they think we have gone crazy, but they don't wish us any ill-will.

Then why is there a growing number of French,who are anti the E.U?

 

 

[tebee]

So, we are 2 years down the line, with just a short time to finish arranging our withdrawal agreement. Is now really the time to start thinking about the financial implications ? 

 

MPs request Bank and Treasury Brexit analysis

 

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-asks-treasury-for-brexit-analysis-11424409

 

And to think we once used to be a proud nation,  admired for a pragmatic diplomacy.... 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

‘The rich’, like ‘the working class’, ‘like Labour/Tory voters’ are not a homogeneous mass.

 

That said it’s worth looking at the motives behind why individual members of the ‘rich’ support either Leave or Remain.

 

Dyson doesn’t like EU environmental regulations that limit the electively power of the devices he sells, he certainly doesn’t like tarrifs on importing those devices from where he makes them in Asia.

 

Tim Martin wants to import cheaper booze. Rees-Mogg’s hedge fund interests require markets to fluctuate in order to make profit, and has been exposed advising i his clients of ‘bets’ against the U.K. economy.

 

Aaron Banks has some serious questions to answer.

 

On the Remain side big business, especially those with a high reliance on the EU integrated market and supply chains are pro Remain.

 

But who needs big business, taxes, jobs or a healthy economy?

 

I believe most people voted for remain,not because they are arrogant and selfish,as some on this thread are. But simple because they were unsure and probably afraid of what exiting the E.U. would result in. This was formented by project fear. Now two years later many are starting to realise that many of these worries where unnecessary. Couple this with the increasing knowledge that the exiting of the E.U. Is not solely about the economics, but about other aspects of our attachment to the E.U.

 People are now increasingly aware that these little tin pots in Brussels demand that we continue

1/to pay the E.U. £39 billion

2/ Remain in the single market and customs union.

3/Obey all current and future E.U laws, rather than create our own laws for the benefit of the British people.

4/ comply with the ECJ. Even if it’s against the intetest of the British people,

5/Continued the E.u’s common fishing policy.

6/ Continued free movement. At what ever cost to the British way of life,and to the detriment of British workers.

 

I just cannot understand why the media seems to gloss over these concerns,could it be that the establishment are afraid of what the general public will find out.

Edited July 3, 2018 by nontabury

[Chomper Higgot]

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I believe most people voted for remain,not because they are arrogant and selfish,as some on this thread are. But simple because they were unsure and probably afraid of what exiting the E.U. would result in. This was formented by project fear. Now two years later many are starting to realise that many of these worries where unnecessary. Couple this with the increasing knowledge that the exiting of the E.U. Is not solely about the economics, but about other aspects of our attachment to the E.U.

 People are now increasingly aware that these little tin pots in Brussels demand that we continue

1/to pay the E.U. £39 billion

2/ Remain in the single market and customs union.

3/Obey all current and future E.U laws, rather than create our own laws for the benefit of the British people.

4/ comply with the ECJ. Even if it’s against the intetest of the British people,

5/Continued the E.u’s common fishing policy.

6/ Continued free movement. At what ever cost to the British way of life,and to the detriment of British workers.

 

I just cannot understand why the media seems to gloss over these concerns,could it be that the establishment are afraid of what the general public will find out.

 

So your explanation for the Remainers' choice is either (1) arrogant and selfish, or (2) afraid of the unknown? Those are the sum total justifications, in your mind? Are these really the only two options you can conceive?

 

 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I wonder if the palpable panic amongst Brexit supporters this week has anything to do with the U.K. government simply having nothing to put on the negotiating table?

 

 

If that is so, could the reason be, that those millions of people who voted to leave the E.U. are increasingly aware that they have been truly shafted by a Prime Minister who is at heart, an admitted Remainer.

 

 

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

When you have some like Juncker as the head of the household, his unreasonable behaviour is more than enough grounds for divorce. No matter how hard you try to save the marriage when the marriage has irretrievably broken down there is only one option left for the marriage and that is to part on as pleasant terms as possible, it is in both parties interest to do this. 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, nontabury said:

If that is so, could the reason be, that those millions of people who voted to leave the E.U. are increasingly aware that they have been truly shafted by a Prime Minister who is at heart, an admitted Remainer.

 

 

If the above is true, what do you think will change after Brexit, and who will drive that change?

[The Renegade]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If the above is true, what do you think will change after Brexit, and who will drive that change?

Things that make you go Hmmmmm

 

Quote

The French president’s centrist party, La République en Marche (LRM), is opening a virtual academy Monday that will offer courses, seminars and e-learning formats year-round to anyone who wants to learn about Macronism.

 

The long view: To train up an army of Macron loyalist volunteers, especially women, who will be willing to hit the campaign trail in time for the 2019 European Parliament election.

https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-mini-me-academy/

 

40 years of indoctrination that the EU ( Institutions ) is the Bees Knees and must be supported to the detriment of the idea of a Nation State.

 

Just imagine how good it might have been if it had stayed as a Trading Block without the desire to morph into a Supranational Superstate ??

[Chomper Higgot]

40 minutes ago, nontabury said:

If that is so, could the reason be, that those millions of people who voted to leave the E.U. are increasingly aware that they have been truly shafted by a Prime Minister who is at heart, an admitted Remainer.

 

 

Well like don’t say you weren’t warned.

 

Doh!