Plans to buy a property and visa requirements

[blackmambahk]

Hi there,

I am currently based in Hong Kong and after many holidays in Koh Samui over the years I am starting to look at buying property in Koh Samui.
My wife and I are both over 60, both HK residents, with HK and UK passports.
She is retired and I am semi retired, with no business in Thailand.

The idea I have is to buy a condo (chanote) in Koh Samui and stay there for 2 'vacation' periods each year with each period being 30 to 90  days with probably 2 weeks separating them.

Is this practical and what visa would be best for this arrangement? 
TIA

Rob 

[overherebc]

In all honesty I would look at renting for holiday periods not buying. 

Once the money is in Thailand it stays in Thailand.

Visa ? multi entry every time you come to Thailand.

Edited July 1, 2018 by overherebc

[yuiop]

Money talks. You can buy a condo on tourist visa with just your passport.

[newnative]

    Certainly renting could be an option but I think buying makes just as much sense.  With your own place, you don't need to go through the hassle of finding a place to rent each time you visit and go through the rental process at the beginning and the end.  Plus, you have the advantage of having your own home with your own things in it, a place you can make your own.  With your own place, you don't need to move all your things in and out each time you visit. 

    With condo maintenance fees so low, it doesn't cost much to leave the condo empty for the periods you are not using it.  Once you reach retirement, you might find yourself spending more time there and you'll save on rent.  Should you decide to sell at some point, you can take the money out of Thailand

[KittenKong]

The idea I have is to buy a condo (chanote) in Koh Samui and stay there for 2 'vacation' periods each year with each period being 30 to 90 days with probably 2 weeks separating them.

Is this practical and what visa would be best for this arrangement?

As others have mentioned, you dont need any sort of visa to buy a condo and the ongoing costs are usually quite small if you buy in the right building.

Be warned that asking prices are often way over the top here, and it is very easy to buy property but often very hard to sell it again. So you should probably be looking for a big discount on an average asking price. And you should make sure that your unit suits you perfectly before you buy as it may not be easy to change later. Examine the building management and committee reports carefully to ensure that the place is being run correctly: many are not. Carefully study the nearby area to ensure that other buildings cannot be built to block your view, or to cause noise or other inconvenience.

When it comes to money and property here it's best to assume that everyone is lying to you.

If you import your funds correctly (ie through a bank and with the correct documentation) then you should have no trouble exporting them again if ever you sell up.

As for your visa for visiting, you have several options but if you are thinking of visiting regularly like that you may like to look into annual retirement extensions which usually work out quite cheap and simple when compared to getting regular visas and extending them or doing visa runs. An annual retirement extension is very flexible and basically means you can come and go whenever you like, without having to worry about how long each stay is.

[mngmn]

54 minutes ago, newnative said:

    Certainly renting could be an option but I think buying makes just as much sense.  With your own place, you don't need to go through the hassle of finding a place to rent each time you visit and go through the rental process at the beginning and the end.  Plus, you have the advantage of having your own home with your own things in it, a place you can make your own.  With your own place, you don't need to move all your things in and out each time you visit. 

    With condo maintenance fees so low, it doesn't cost much to leave the condo empty for the periods you are not using it.  Once you reach retirement, you might find yourself spending more time there and you'll save on rent.  Should you decide to sell at some point, you can take the money out of Thailand

Agree with your points about the hassle of renting and would add that you also have to live with the landlord's decor and furniture.

 

But it is a mistake to think that owning a property gives you a free place to stay (especially in retirement).  Taking my current situation as an example.  I pay Baht 15,000 month rent and I suspect my landlord would want between 3.5 - 4 million baht to sell the condo I rent (based on other asking prices in my block).

 

Leaving aside the question of whether this is over priced or not, the median investment return for Australian super (pension) funds is currently 11.19%.  This means that the average investor is currently receiving around Baht 32,000 a month on 3.5 million in their super fund.  Even at 5% return (more realistic in the long term) they would get Baht 14,500 which means renting rather than owning would only cost them Baht 500/month.

 

To make matters worse, I believe the second hand condos in my block are over priced with not a single one being sold in the 5 years I have been here.  I have a lot of flexibility if I keep the money in my super fund but once I buy a condo the money is probably locked up in Thailand forever as overherebc says.

 

In the end the decision to buy property in Thailand is should be a lifestyle/emotional one.  Not financial.

Edited July 2, 2018 by mngmn
Formatting

[Snow Leopard]

Can anyone invest in the Australian Super Pension Fund? 11% is a good return. I am in doubt that you can and the OP has a UK passport.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

    Certainly renting could be an option but I think buying makes just as much sense.  With your own place, you don't need to go through the hassle of finding a place to rent each time you visit and go through the rental process at the beginning and the end.  Plus, you have the advantage of having your own home with your own things in it, a place you can make your own.  With your own place, you don't need to move all your things in and out each time you visit. 

    With condo maintenance fees so low, it doesn't cost much to leave the condo empty for the periods you are not using it.  Once you reach retirement, you might find yourself spending more time there and you'll save on rent.  Should you decide to sell at some point, you can take the money out of Thailand

If you don't live in the condo full time, don't let people clean it regularly / do maintenance, the quality will go down very quickly. 

[overherebc]

47 minutes ago, mngmn said:

Agree with your points about the hassle of renting and would add that you also have to live with the landlord's decor and furniture.

 

But it is a mistake to think that owning a property gives you a free place to stay (especially in retirement).  Taking my current situation as an example.  I pay Baht 15,000 month rent and I suspect my landlord would want between 3.5 - 4 million baht to sell the condo I rent (based on other asking prices in my block).

 

Leaving aside the question of whether this is over priced or not, the median investment return for Australian super (pension) funds is currently 11.19%.  This means that the average investor is currently receiving around Baht 32,000 a month on 3.5 million in their super fund.  Even at 5% return (more realistic in the long term) they would get Baht 14,500 which means renting rather than owning would only cost them Baht 500/month.

 

To make matters worse, I believe the second hand condos in my block are over priced with not a single one being sold in the 5 years I have been here.  I have a lot of flexibility if I keep the money in my super fund but once I buy a condo the money is probably locked up in Thailand forever as overherebc says.

 

In the end the decision to buy property in Thailand is should be a lifestyle/emotional one.  Not financial.

I do know someone who paid around 10 mil for a nice Condo and then found out, as he had been told, he couldn't just leave it in his will to his son.

It seems, and I'm willing to be corrected, that he has to sell to his son, on paperwork, pay all the charges related to that sale etc etc. 

He has been trying to sell now for about 4 years and is trying to let it go for 8 mil and hasn't had one enquiry.

[KittenKong]

This explains condo inheritance, and seems to be accurate:

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/condo-inheritance.html

[mngmn]

4 hours ago, Snow Leopard said:

Can anyone invest in the Australian Super Pension Fund? 11% is a good return. I am in doubt that you can and the OP has a UK passport.

No you need to have PR I think but I was just using that as an example.  5% is the normal investment benchmark and not too hard to find a fund that does better but do your research carefully.

 

[mngmn]

3 hours ago, overherebc said:

I do know someone who paid around 10 mil for a nice Condo and then found out, as he had been told, he couldn't just leave it in his will to his son.

It seems, and I'm willing to be corrected, that he has to sell to his son, on paperwork, pay all the charges related to that sale etc etc. 

He has been trying to sell now for about 4 years and is trying to let it go for 8 mil and hasn't had one enquiry.

I have heard similar stories many times.  Most people try to get their money back and can't sell for years and years.  My personal benchmark is that foreigners in an unregulated market in Thailand pay 50% - 100% over the local price.  Applies to just about everything taxis, national parks, dentists, condos...

 

As I said there are good lifestyle reasons for owning a condo in Thailand but the financial justification is just not there.

[overherebc]

8 minutes ago, mngmn said:

I have heard similar stories many times.  Most people try to get their money back and can't sell for years and years.  My personal benchmark is that foreigners in an unregulated market in Thailand pay 50% - 100% over the local price.  Applies to just about everything taxis, national parks, dentists, condos...

 

As I said there are good lifestyle reasons for owning a condo in Thailand but the financial justification is just not there.

German lady friend of mine who was a lecturer at a Thai Uni' here, left about 6 years

ago , decided to buy a small condo near the beach. One bedroom and a nice sized lounge/kitchen with a balcony.

I think she paid, at the time, around 650,000.

She had been there a year and the identical condo next door was bought by a Thai for 550,000.

When she asked about the difference in price the answer was very direct, foreigners should expect to pay more because they are all rich.

[newnative]

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

German lady friend of mine who was a lecturer at a Thai Uni' here, left about 6 years

ago , decided to buy a small condo near the beach. One bedroom and a nice sized lounge/kitchen with a balcony.

I think she paid, at the time, around 650,000.

She had been there a year and the identical condo next door was bought by a Thai for 550,000.

When she asked about the difference in price the answer was very direct, foreigners should expect to pay more because they are all rich.

She may have been charged extra to get foreign quota, which sometimes is priced more with condos.

[overherebc]

6 minutes ago, newnative said:

She may have been charged extra to get foreign quota, which sometimes is priced more with condos.

Still a rip off no matter how you spin it.

[khunPer]

22 hours ago, blackmambahk said:

I am starting to look at buying property in Koh Samui.

Hi from a Samui resident for more than a decade.

There are several nice condo projects here, also some including rental-service when you don't use the condo yourself.

 

A good source for legal information is Samui for Sale, and here are also local law firms that specialize in property for foreigners, also one established by a British lawyer from Hong Kong that himself moved to Samui.

 

Your don't need any visa to "invest" in a condo, and a SETV or METV tourist visa could clear your vacations for up to 90-days; i.e. 60-days plus 30-days extension at the local Immigration Office in Maenam. If you a some point wish to settle more permanent, you can apply for a "non immigrant O-A" visa, and extend the stay for one year at time based on retirement; one can be retired, and one can be spouse. You can also apply for the new 1-year retirement visa instead of "non O-A".

 

When transferring money for a condo into Thailand – the money need to be shown coming from abroad – you shall have a declaration from the bank, so you legally can take the money out again, if/when you sell the condo. You might need to open a bank account in Thailand for that.

 

Feel free to ask, if you think I can help with further information...?

[Suradit69]

13 hours ago, newnative said:

Plus, you have the advantage of having your own home with your own things in it, a place you can make your own.  With your own place, you don't need to move all your things in and out each time you visit. 

Agree. I bought  nearly 10 years before retiring here. Before settling here full-time, I came here 3 or 4 times a year for varying lengths of time and my condo and my furniture and clothes, etc were waiting for me.

 

No nasty surprises if you try to reserve some place online before you arrive. No time wasted  trying to find a rental after you arrive. No hassle with deposits or with mattresses with disturbing stains or oddly smelling refrigerators or furniture that lists to starboard.  Arrive when you want and leave when you want without worrying about fitting your schedule to suit the person from whom you rent.

 

 

[newnative]

13 hours ago, overherebc said:

Still a rip off no matter how you spin it.

Not necessarily, not enough information.

[overherebc]

12 minutes ago, newnative said:

Not necessarily, not enough information.

So if your local car showroom has two identical cars for sale and has one priced 100,000 baht more for expats you're saying there must be a genuine and legal reason for it?

[mngmn]

9 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Agree. I bought  nearly 10 years before retiring here. Before settling here full-time, I came here 3 or 4 times a year for varying lengths of time and my condo and my furniture and clothes, etc were waiting for me.

 

No nasty surprises if you try to reserve some place online before you arrive. No time wasted  trying to find a rental after you arrive. No hassle with deposits or with mattresses with disturbing stains or oddly smelling refrigerators or furniture that lists to starboard.  Arrive when you want and leave when you want without worrying about fitting your schedule to suit the person from whom you rent.

 

 

Agree from a lifestyle perspective there is no substitute for owning your own place.  From a financial perspective it might be worth renting long term even if you are not living here all the time.  In my case, my super fund''s return on Baht 3.5 million is nearly double the rent I pay, meaning it would possibly be worthwhile to rent even if I only lived there 50% of the time.  I still have total control over my money (including buying a condo at some point in the future).  Of course for people who are really "cashed up" this may not be a consideration.

 

Even from a lifestyle perspective there can sometimes be downsides to owning in Thailand.  There is little control over neighbors who might develop a late-night passion for karaoke or noisy marital disputes ?  if renting you simply move on but if its your own place you may become locked in endless retirement-ruining disputes.

[newnative]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

So if your local car showroom has two identical cars for sale and has one priced 100,000 baht more for expats you're saying there must be a genuine and legal reason for it?

     What I am saying is there is not enough information to make a determination.   What information we have is very limited, secondhand, and from 6 years ago.  There is not a foreign quota system for cars.  There is a legal foreign quota system for condos, which results in some developers charging more for condos in foreign quota.  

[overherebc]

26 minutes ago, newnative said:

     What I am saying is there is not enough information to make a determination.   What information we have is very limited, secondhand, and from 6 years ago.  There is not a foreign quota system for cars.  There is a legal foreign quota system for condos, which results in some developers charging more for condos in foreign quota.  

40% ? I'm not exactly sure of the figure, can be foreign owned. Why should that change the selling/asking price.

Two identical condo units next to each other ( can chat over the balcony wall. ) both new, unlived in before, same furnishings.

Previous sales of other identical condos at 550,000, she didn't know that, ok, she should have.

It was still a rip off because they could.

Edit.

We are still in touch by e mail now she is back home so it's not 'a friend of a friend' story.

Not quite sure what other information you think is missing.

Edited July 3, 2018 by overherebc

[Suradit69]

51 minutes ago, mngmn said:

Agree from a lifestyle perspective there is no substitute for owning your own place.  From a financial perspective it might be worth renting long term even if you are not living here all the time.  In my case, my super fund''s return on Baht 3.5 million is nearly double the rent I pay, meaning it would possibly be worthwhile to rent even if I only lived there 50% of the time.  I still have total control over my money (including buying a condo at some point in the future).  Of course for people who are really "cashed up" this may not be a consideration.

 

Even from a lifestyle perspective there can sometimes be downsides to owning in Thailand.  There is little control over neighbors who might develop a late-night passion for karaoke or noisy marital disputes ?  if renting you simply move on but if its your own place you may become locked in endless retirement-ruining disputes.

Yes, there are numerous personal factors and opportunity costs to consider. One size definitely does not fit all.

 

In my case it's been nearly twenty years since I bought. Rent over the years would have cost way more than my initial cost. When I die, my Thai heir will have a decent amount from the sale of the unit. Fortunately my building has been well maintained, is in a good location and managed well ,still attracts buyers and is fully occupied even if some of the resident/owners only appear during the high season.  If I was still paying rent, when I die there would be nothing for my heir aside from potential expenses.

 

At my age now, if I were just coming to Thailand for the first time, I definitely would rent rather than buy. When I bought the condo the exchange rate was excellent, prices were comparatively low following the 1997 Asian slump and the money I used would have taken a hit from the stock market Dot Com  Bubble crash around 2000. dumb luck on my part all around rather than strategic planning. 

 

Luckily no noisy neighbors or karaoke nights. Certainly if one buys an ultra cheap unit located on a dismal soi occupied by bars and gogos, one is asking for grief.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Suradit69

[KittenKong]

40% ? I'm not exactly sure of the figure, can be foreign owned. Why should that change the selling/asking price.

Two identical condo units next to each other ( can chat over the balcony wall. ) both new, unlived in before, same furnishings.
Previous sales of other identical condos at 550,000, she didn't know that, ok, she should have.
It was still a rip off because they could.

The figure is 49%.

As for the higher asking price (and let's not forget that all property prices in Thailand are 100% negotiable), there are two likely reasons:

1. The building may be more desirable to farangs than to Thais. This will automatically have a tendency to make both asking and real prices rise, simply because of demand exceeding the 49% availability in the building. In other buildings that are less attractive to farangs this is unlikely to happen.

2. Farangs are perceived to be universally wealthy, and asking prices are adjusted upwards accordingly. This can happen regardless of whether there is a lot of demand or not, and it happens everywhere and for all types of transactions.

In either case it is still up to the buyer to negotiate the price down to a sensible level, or to walk away.

[smutcakes]

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

40% ? I'm not exactly sure of the figure, can be foreign owned. Why should that change the selling/asking price.

Two identical condo units next to each other ( can chat over the balcony wall. ) both new, unlived in before, same furnishings.

Previous sales of other identical condos at 550,000, she didn't know that, ok, she should have.

It was still a rip off because they could.

Edit.

We are still in touch by e mail now she is back home so it's not 'a friend of a friend' story.

Not quite sure what other information you think is missing.

If she was not clued up enough to reliaze that their were other 'identical' condos selling at the same price, then i would also take anything she said with a pinch of salt with regards the condos being 'identical'. If she misses something as glaring as that, then she is probably also liable to miss issues such as better views, being next to a lift shaft, better orientation, furnished or unfurnished probably even an extra room!.

 

And with regards your own comments, i find it amazing someone can be so forceful in their views in this type of thing, when you do not even know what the foreign ratio ownership is, which anyone with even a fleeting interest of acquiring a condominium in Thailand would know, and most without even a fleeting interest.

[KittenKong]

If she was not clued up enough to reliaze that their were other 'identical' condos selling at the same price, .....

How can anyone know what real prices are here? It's all conjecture, plus the occasional personal experience.

[smutcakes]

21 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

How can anyone know what real prices are here? It's all conjecture, plus the occasional personal experience.

You cannot unless you have been directly involved in the transaction or have the time/effort to go to the LD to find out. However the poster said " Previous sales of other identical condos at 550,000, she didn't know that, ok, she should have" so presumably she did her research later.....

[BritManToo]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:50 AM, newnative said:

Certainly renting could be an option but I think buying makes just as much sense.

Not for a person aged 60+.

The chances of them living long enough to enjoy the expense of a purchase is ZERO.

No hassle in renting, 10 minutes browsing Booking.com and Traveloka will do the job.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

You cannot unless you have been directly involved in the transaction or have the time/effort to go to the LD to find out. However the poster said " Previous sales of other identical condos at 550,000, she didn't know that, ok, she should have" so presumably she did her research later.....

Some expats, to my mind, make the very simple mistake of comparing the price of a nice condo here against the price of a similar condo in their own country, especially sea view, and don't ask enough questions or the right questions.

In reply to a previous poster about me not knowing what % of condos can be foreign owned, I don't care because I never have or ever will live in one so I have 0% interest in them. That's just my choice. If he wants to live next door

( through the wall from ) to some noisly neighbour then he is welcome.

I don't have to be forced into buying anywhere to protect my interests or spend my money on anything I can't own.

[overherebc]

6 hours ago, mngmn said:

Agree from a lifestyle perspective there is no substitute for owning your own place.  From a financial perspective it might be worth renting long term even if you are not living here all the time.  In my case, my super fund''s return on Baht 3.5 million is nearly double the rent I pay, meaning it would possibly be worthwhile to rent even if I only lived there 50% of the time.  I still have total control over my money (including buying a condo at some point in the future).  Of course for people who are really "cashed up" this may not be a consideration.

 

Even from a lifestyle perspective there can sometimes be downsides to owning in Thailand.  There is little control over neighbors who might develop a late-night passion for karaoke or noisy marital disputes ?  if renting you simply move on but if its your own place you may become locked in endless retirement-ruining disputes.

Don't like your post. I love it.