Kohsamida Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, duanebigsby said: Just because he's anesthetist doesn't mean he'll suggest sedating them. He's there because of his cave diving experience. I believe no sedation should be used but at least there's an expert in the cave and not me or you making the call. Just speculation on my part but perhaps they are concerned with the effects of the breathing mixtures of scuba tanks on these very young and physically stressed boys. Who would be better able to observe negative effects and be qualified to deal with them in an emergency than a MD/anesthesiologist who's also an experienced diver? Just a guess on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGW Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Just now, Sheryl said: No, not at all. The issue was for him to evaluate their fitness to undertake the dive. Anethetists do not only put people under anesthesia. They are experts in issues of oxygenation, patent airway, etc. This doctor specializies in these issues in underwater setting. Sedation would NOT be a good ides. People can have what are called "paradoxal" reactions to sedation and even become more agitated. Soemtimes allergic reactions occur as well. The boys will need their wits fully about them, they need to be able to remember and follow to the letter the instructions they've been given. Sedatives would also increase risk of respiratory problems. It would be an absolute last resort. Careful mental preparation and a high level of trust in their rescuers are key and have been worked on for the past few days. I couldn't agree more, far to many drugs are prescribed in this day and age, we are capable of a lot more than we credit ourselves with at times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, duanebigsby said: Just because he's anesthetist doesn't mean he'll suggest sedating them. He's there because of his cave diving experience. I believe no sedation should be used but at least there's an expert in the cave and not me or you making the call. at least there's an expert in the cave and not me or you making the call. As I have stressed several times. Lets leave the decisions to the people at the site. We all have our opinions and nothing wrong with discussing them, but we are not the ones there. If I was one of those boys, facing possible death in a tunnel, I'd want all the sedation they could give me before I had to go in. BTW, even valium is sedation, and when I'm stressed, it makes me feel a whole lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisi Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: They are showing a good montage on Thai PBS 3 of the rescue effort. It's far larger than I had thought, with hundreds of military and others involved, large machinery and huge amounts of water being pumped out. For those that seem to believe militaries are not necessary, no other organisation could have put together such a large operation, and they deserve a huge vote of thanks. While all the negative, bleating, and whinging doomsdayers have been busy doing nothing constructive, hundreds of people, not just military have been putting their hearts and their physical effort into this rescue - let's us hope they richly rewarded for their excellent contribution to this mammoth undertaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lincolnshire poacher Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Sheryl said: I am not sure 10 am was tbe departure time for the boys. May have been for the rescue team going in. In which case it will be later. Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app 10am was the departure time for the international divers from the entrance to the cave, 11 hours was the time given for a diver making a return trip by himself, so 9pm may be a little optimistic for 2 divers coming back with one child, but there again conditions have improved within the caves so maybe not over optimistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kohsamida said: Just speculation on my part but perhaps they are concerned with the effects of the breathing mixtures of scuba tanks on these very young and physically stressed boys. Who would be better able to observe negative effects and be qualified to deal with them in an emergency? Just a guess on my part. Excuse me, but what breathing mixtures of scuba tanks are you talking about? This is not deep sea diving and they will be using compressed air, not a "mixture". However, if you can provide me a link to a reliable source saying they are using a mixture, I'll apologise for being wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohsamida Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: at least there's an expert in the cave and not me or you making the call. As I have stressed several times. Lets leave the decisions to the people at the site. We all have our opinions and nothing wrong with discussing them, but we are not the ones there. If I was one of those boys, facing possible death in a tunnel, I'd want all the sedation they could give me before I had to go in. BTW, even valium is sedation, and when I'm stressed, it makes me feel a whole lot better. I don't think it has anything to do with sedating the boys! Just speculation on my part but perhaps they are concerned with the effects of the breathing mixtures of scuba tanks on these very young and physically stressed boys. Who would be better able to observe negative effects and be qualified to deal with them in an emergency than a MD/anesthesiologist who's also an experienced diver? Just a guess on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fvw53 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Is it true that the parents of the kids were first asked to give their consent to start the rescue operation? I do not see how those poor people could take the responsibility for the right steps to take.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGW Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Just now, Kohsamida said: I don't think it has anything to do with sedating the boys! Just speculation on my part but perhaps they are concerned with the effects of the breathing mixtures of scuba tanks on these very young and physically stressed boys. Who would be better able to observe negative effects and be qualified to deal with them in an emergency than a MD/anesthesiologist who's also an experienced diver? Just a guess on my part. There breathing normal air, stop looking for excuses to drug them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohsamida Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: Excuse me, but what breathing mixtures of scuba tanks are you talking about? This is not deep sea diving and they will be using compressed air, not a "mixture". However, if you can provide me a link to a reliable source saying they are using a mixture, I'll apologise for being wrong. I am not a diver so, as I said, I am only speculating, but I believe all scuba tanks are not simply compressed air but a mixtures of gasses, whether it is deep diving or not. ANd even if only compressed air, we're talking about breathing under incredibly unnatural conditions, especially for a youngster who is already stressed. An anesthesiologist is especially qualified to deal with respiratory emergencies, and that's what we're really talking about with kids being placed in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGW Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Just now, Kohsamida said: I am not a diver so, as I said, I am only speculating, but I believe all scuba tanks are not simply compressed air but a mixtures of gasses, whether it is deep diving or not. Your wrong ? Edit, if you remember a few days back they were concerned that they were filling the bottles with polluted air, as the compressor they were using could have been sucking in diesel exhaust fumes from the vicinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Just now, Artisi said: While all the negative, bleating, and whinging doomsdayers have been busy doing nothing constructive, hundreds of people, not just military have been putting their hearts and their physical effort into this rescue - let's us hope they richly rewarded for their excellent contribution to this mammoth undertaking. If my time in the military is any sort of a guide, the only reward the rank and file will get will be a sense of satisfaction for having assisted the successful rescue of small boys and their coach. I hope they get a few days off after it is all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Kohsamida said: I am not a diver so, as I said, I am only speculating, but I believe all scuba tanks are not simply compressed air but a mixtures of gasses, whether it is deep diving or not. As a qualified SCUBA diver I can assure you the only gasses I ever used for diving were those in the atmosphere. However, you are correct in that air is many gasses and not just O2. However, it is just normal air under compression. We had our own compressor on the dive boat and the only gas being compressed was air. We did, though, have to make sure the carbon monoxide from the engine exhaust did not enter the tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvr181 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 No guessing needed - he is a specialist medical practitioner (anaesthetist) and a specialist in medical diving experience. Up to him to advise or decide what needs to be done to help these boys. Let those onsite make the decisions and as other posters have suggested, stop second guessing the experts. Hope everyone gets out of this predicament safe and well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohsamida Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 15 minutes ago, CGW said: Your wrong ? You're right ? I am wrong. ? It's most likely compressed air. I just looked it up. Nonetheless, we're talking about breathing under incredibly unnatural conditions, especially for a youngster who is already stressed from what they've been through, and will be enduring hours of unimaginable challenges which could easily result in respiratory crisis from panic or physiological causes. An anesthesiologist would be especially qualified to recognize the onset of a respiratory emergency and be able to quickly deal with it, much more so than an average diver would be able to. To have an anesthesiologist that is also an experienced diver woud seem to be an undeniable advantage in this unique situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 22 minutes ago, lincolnshire poacher said: Yes but why would they anticipate that all of a sudden they would need in excess of a dozen cave divers ? I'm probably in favour of military rule as much as you, but under the circumstances, the best cave divers from around the world will probably be doing a far better job than any trained by the Thai military people. I'm a qualified diver, but there is no way I'd be cave diving, let alone going through narrow tunnels. It takes a very special person to be effective in that sort of situation, and I doubt it has been part of Thai navy divers training, though that should change in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvr181 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said: I doubt it has been part of Thai navy divers training, "..I doubt it has been part of Thai navy divers training,..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmayes Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Wishing them a successful rescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Kohsamida said: You're right ? I am wrong. ? It's most likely compressed air. I just looked it up. Nonetheless, we're talking about breathing under incredibly unnatural conditions, especially for a youngster who is already stressed from what they've been through. An anesthesiologist is especially qualified to recognize the onset of a respiratory emergencies and quickly deal with it, much more so than an average diver would be. To have an anesthesiologist that is also an experienced diver simply sounds like a good thing. Without wishing to further confuse the issue, once the boys are in the tunnels, there is nothing anyone can do to help them, other than get them through as fast as possible. There just isn't enough room for someone to swim alongside and assess them. If there were, they'd have been out days ago. No doubt panic will be a very large part of the assessment in formulating a plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiterussian Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Bet they're administering knock out drugs and bundling the boys. Thoughts and prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, lvr181 said: "..I doubt it has been part of Thai navy divers training,..." I included Thai as someone was singling them out to criticise, but you are probably correct as of now. I'd expect every navy diver in the future to be adding cave diving to their training though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DipStick Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said: I'm a qualified diver, but there is no way I'd be cave diving, let alone going through narrow tunnels. It takes a very special person to be effective in that sort of situation, and I doubt it has been part of Thai navy divers training, though that should change in the future. Totally agree with these comments, “Horses for Courses” comes to mind, an open water diver would probably not be comfortable in confined cave conditions. In my humble opinion one of the most important aspects of this rescue is a firm chain of command, let the cave experts take control, irrespective of nationality and not let the dreaded Asian face surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravip Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 All I could say is wish them all who are involved the very best and a successful operation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravip Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, DipStick said: Totally agree with these comments, “Horses for Courses” comes to mind, an open water diver would probably not be comfortable in confined cave conditions. In my humble opinion one of the most important aspects of this rescue is a firm chain of command, let the cave experts take control, irrespective of nationality and not let the dreaded Asian face surface. This was all that was missing at this moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohsamida Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: Without wishing to further confuse the issue, once the boys are in the tunnels, there is nothing anyone can do to help them, other than get them through as fast as possible. There just isn't enough room for someone to swim alongside and assess them. If there were, they'd have been out days ago. No doubt panic will be a very large part of the assessment in formulating a plan. Also not wishing to stir things up here but I don't think they're going to just thrown in the water and go for the rescue swim. They'll most likely do it in small steps where they can be observed to see how they react, and deal with problems before the real swim. However it works, I don't think it's merely a coincidence that an anesthesiologist is part of the team. I have a feeling there is a reason for that, whatever it might be. My only reason for posting in this was really just to dispel the notion that an anesthesiologist was there to "sedate the boys" as was being speculated by some of the posts. I think we can agree that is probably not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGW Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, lvr181 said: No guessing needed - he is a specialist medical practitioner (anaesthetist) and a specialist in medical diving experience. Up to him to advise or decide what needs to be done to help these boys. Let those onsite make the decisions and as other posters have suggested, stop second guessing the experts. I'm going to try and second guess the experts - I have always been a rebel at heart ? I hope it is not necessary to drug any of the boys & they can be left to their own devices, just like we used to do before the nanny state and drug salesman moved in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheryl Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 The Australian doctor is nto accompanying the boys on the way out. He went in last night to see if they were medically fit to undergo it. Hsi assessment was that they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, DipStick said: Totally agree with these comments, “Horses for Courses” comes to mind, an open water diver would probably not be comfortable in confined cave conditions. In my humble opinion one of the most important aspects of this rescue is a firm chain of command, let the cave experts take control, irrespective of nationality and not let the dreaded Asian face surface. I always loved knowing that if anything went wrong the surface was just above. Takes a special person to dive knowing that if something goes wrong they die because they can't get to the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Sheryl said: The Australian doctor is nto accompanying the boys on the way out. He went in last night to see if they were medically fit to undergo it. Hsi assessment was that they are. Some confusion there. I understood only 4 were OK to dive out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDfella Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 31 minutes ago, Sheryl said: No, not at all. The issue was for him to evaluate their fitness to undertake the dive. Anethetists do not only put people under anesthesia. They are experts in issues of oxygenation, patent airway, etc. This doctor specializies in these issues in underwater setting. Sedation would NOT be a good idea. People can have what are called "paradoxal" reactions to sedation and even become more agitated. Sometimes allergic reactions occur as well. The boys will need their wits fully about them, they need to be able to remember and follow to the letter the instructions they've been given. Sedatives would also increase risk of respiratory problems. It would be an absolute last resort. Careful mental preparation and a high level of trust in their rescuers are key and have been worked on for the past few days. Couldn't agree more. There is no point to add another risk variable into the rescue. Confidence and staying awake under these extreme conditions (for the boys) is paramount. I sincerely hope the rescue is a complete success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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