Thai boys await resumption of rescue mission after first four freed from cave

[Kerryd]

Think about it. An experienced, confident diver apparently needs one tank of air to get to the boys and another to get back out again.
The kids are not experienced (even if they may be confident) so it is probably they will anticipate needing at least twice as many tanks to get back out. That's 6 tanks for the trip out (2 per diver and 2 for the child). 
6 times 13 = 78 tanks of air. Not including what is needed/being used by the other SEALs/doctors/volunteers who also have to dive to get in/out of the different caverns along the way.

 

It would be a very large task for 1 diver to get 3 tanks to where the boys are (1 tank he'd need for the trip in, one tank to get him out again and the 3rd tank left for the boys/divers). 
13 boys and 26 divers = 39 tanks needed at the cavern the boys are in and (possibly/probably) another 39 halfway along the trip back.
Not including any tanks they may have brought to use to improve the air quality in the cavern for the people still trapped there.

That is a lot of tanks to haul over a long distance in very extreme conditions. I'm betting the vast majority of armchair experts reading this couldn't haul a single tank that distance, on dry, flat land.

[steve73]

I would expect them to have (and to maintain) a vast oversupply of air tanks throughout the cave system.

We are told the water level is still dropping, and many sections can now be walked/crawled, but perhaps they still need to use their own tanks if the natural air is depleted in oxygen; (the air the divers are using up the oxygen when they're underwater and their depleted exhaust has to go somewhere..!!).

But if what if absolute worst happens and the rains do come down again heavier than expected, filling the system like it was when the rescue team initially found it.

I know they have many pumps (at least in the entrance series) , but they really have no idea how fast the water will rise or how extensive it will flood again, so they would certainly have planned for this worst case scenario.

I'm sure they will ensure that EVERYONE involved underground, will have sufficient air tanks to make a totally wet escape, and probably allow at least a 50% contingency on top of that.

Hopefully very few of the tanks will actually be required.

I hope today goes as well as yesterday seemed to.

[skippybangkok]

 
They also said they were leaving an air tank every 25 meters.
 

Miffs me somewhat why you would do that - I can do 40m + on a single breath - assume miss reporting by a journalist who still thinks they are oxygen tanks :)


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[scorecard]

15 minutes ago, ginjag said:

Not criticising the job but really saying is you need as much and more supplies than necessary, also this applies to diving experts,     Biggest emergency problem is the boys oxygen level in their part of the cave, the more water the less air.

 

Seems from the reports they have all of this well organized considering the whole circumstances.

 

Do you have any real information or data on this subject? If not then why are you commenting at all?

 

 

[jerry921]

Richard Barrow in Thailand @RichardBarrow	3h
The first four boys evacuated from Tham Luang cave complex early on Sunday night are in good condition, officials confirmed this morning

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Think about it. An experienced, confident diver apparently needs one tank of air to get to the boys and another to get back out again.
The kids are not experienced (even if they may be confident) so it is probably they will anticipate needing at least twice as many tanks to get back out. That's 6 tanks for the trip out (2 per diver and 2 for the child). 
6 times 13 = 78 tanks of air. Not including what is needed/being used by the other SEALs/doctors/volunteers who also have to dive to get in/out of the different caverns along the way.

 

Yes, but the plan is/was to bring them by batches of four and then three, which would require only 6 x 3 = 18 tanks for today, and not 78.

 

And moving 18 tanks, or even double that number, would probably not require more than 10 hours, especially since we can assume that full tanks have been stored in chamber 3, about halfway to the children's location.

 

So, it seems possible/likely that many of these tanks are used to replenish the oxygen levels in some parts of the cave, starting with the one where the children are waiting...which could explain why so many are needed...

[seajae]

17 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Think about it. An experienced, confident diver apparently needs one tank of air to get to the boys and another to get back out again.
The kids are not experienced (even if they may be confident) so it is probably they will anticipate needing at least twice as many tanks to get back out. That's 6 tanks for the trip out (2 per diver and 2 for the child). 
6 times 13 = 78 tanks of air. Not including what is needed/being used by the other SEALs/doctors/volunteers who also have to dive to get in/out of the different caverns along the way.

 

It would be a very large task for 1 diver to get 3 tanks to where the boys are (1 tank he'd need for the trip in, one tank to get him out again and the 3rd tank left for the boys/divers). 
13 boys and 26 divers = 39 tanks needed at the cavern the boys are in and (possibly/probably) another 39 halfway along the trip back.
Not including any tanks they may have brought to use to improve the air quality in the cavern for the people still trapped there.

That is a lot of tanks to haul over a long distance in very extreme conditions. I'm betting the vast majority of armchair experts reading this couldn't haul a single tank that distance, on dry, flat land.

assuming they are using 80's, its around 30lb/15kg in weight on dry land, neutral bouyancy in the water, would depend on whether they are aluminium or steel

Edited July 9, 2018 by seajae

[Elkski]

In the pictures I have seen it seems they are using mini tanks.  Not the 80 cf ones.  More slender than regular 60 minis I'm familiar with.  Maybe all this delay so little P can be present?

[scorecard]

9 minutes ago, skippybangkok said:

 

 

Miffs me somewhat why you would do that - I can do 40m + on a single breath - assume miss reporting by a journalist who still thinks they are oxygen tanks ?


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This thread is not about you.

 

 

[taotoo]

If anyone on this thread is an experienced diver please indicate so in each of your posts so that we can sort the wheat from the chaff.

[transam]

1 minute ago, taotoo said:

If anyone on this thread is an experienced diver please indicate so in each of your posts so that we can sort the wheat from the chaff.

You should ask experienced cave diver....Totally different subject..

[seajae]

12 minutes ago, Elkski said:

In the pictures I have seen it seems they are using mini tanks.  Not the 80 cf ones.  More slender than regular 60 minis I'm familiar with.  Maybe all this delay so little P can be present?

hp80(steel) are shorter, they are the same size as the al63's(aluminium),  will depend on what they are made of, havent really had a good look at the tanks they are using. I am(70's till '05) a licensed diver, civilian and armed forces, also done cave diving, lot of wreck diving in Australia

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by seajae

[Sheryl]

Totally agree, BUT  how many expert divers ??   2 to each boy being evacuated.    only one shift available ??   so a lack of expert divers ??    and please can someone answer the lack of full oxygen cylinders for the divers to use.       Brilliant so far but questions asked regarding the above points help to get maximum effort from organisers in supplying everything needed.

Yes, there is a limited number of the expert cave divers. The core team that accomplished yesterday's mission was 13 foreign + 5 Thai. This includes 2 dive buddies/guides for each boy plus divers stationed at key points in the route. There are narrow spits where air tanks have to be removed and passed through.

The plan as announced is to stick to this same team since they have the most expertise and, now, experience in this exact extraction plan. It is a tricky undertaking.




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[Elkski]

They said they have soldiers stationed along the way. And at support camp.  They would all need tanks to exit in car water rises.  

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Posts trying to use this as a political platform have been removed.  Any more and the people posting them may be as well.?

 

Plenty of existing threads for those who want to talk about Thai, US or any other politics. NOT THIS ONE.

Not just politics. Some are using the threads about the cave rescue to beat their drum about everything they don't like in Thailand.

I tried to read the closed thread after I left it last night to catch up, but I was so shocked and saddened by the many posting about irrelevant things like religion and criticizing Thai specifically and generally that I had to give up.

It's sad that so many are so bitter that they have to ruin threads that should be positive and informative.

I guess it's pointless asking people to keep their negativity for less serious subjects, as it never seems to work just asking people to be nice when posting, when they'd rather attack other people, religion, Thais and Thailand.

Just saying.

[Brunolem]

11 minutes ago, taotoo said:

If anyone on this thread is an experienced diver please indicate so in each of your posts so that we can sort the wheat from the chaff.

Trips back and forth to the space station are not exclusively organized by astronauts...

It happens that non-specialists, in whatever discipline, may yet have good organization skills and can bring useful advice to the specialists...actually, this happens all the time...

[thaibeachlovers]

Does anyone know of a Thai news service in English that I can use to watch the rescue in a few hours? Hopefully they have a live service available on the internet.

There aren't any on WETV which is the tv company I have to watch.

Fox and Al Jazeera have some updates, but not continuous. WETV no longer carries Sky, so only 2 channels in English carrying the story. I thought Asia news channel would do so, but their coverage is minimal.

[webfact]

Chiang Rai: What we know – 2.30pm

By The Thaiger

 

 

Divers have been preparing over the past 12 hours to resume their extraction of the remaining 9 people still inside the cave. They re-entered the cave mouth at 1pm this afternoon. On this basis, comparing to yesterday’s timing, we can expect more of the team to emerge from the caves early this evening, but that is pure speculation.

 

There has been a further media clamp-down on the flow of information as authorities try and control the latest developments. Police have restricted the movement of media following some Thai media trying to chase ambulances and tracking helicopters as members of the football team were evacuated yesterday.

 

They’ve also warned rescue teams and police to restrict information being sent to the media before it has been shared through official channels – the press briefings with the former Governor Chiang Rai, Narongsak Osottanakorn, who is now the Governor of Phayao.

 

Full story: https://thethaiger.com/news/chiang-rai/chiang-rai-what-we-know-2-30pm

 

-- © Copyright The Thaiger 2018-07-09

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not just politics. Some are using the threads about the cave rescue to beat their drum about everything they don't like in Thailand.

I tried to read the closed thread after I left it last night to catch up, but I was so shocked and saddened by the many posting about irrelevant things like religion and criticizing Thai specifically and generally that I had to give up.

It's sad that so many are so bitter that they have to ruin threads that should be positive and informative.

I guess it's pointless asking people to keep their negativity for less serious subjects, as it never seems to work just asking people to be nice when posting, when they'd rather attack other people, religion, Thais and Thailand.

Just saying.

 

Agree, not the intent or this thread which is about getting the kids out safely and also the divers.

and I hope the mods will consider banning all the political etc., commentators for a month or whatever.

 

Plus it's happening again right now, last 20 pots over and about how many tanks etc etc etc.  And most of the posters have zero to very little real data in regard to this situation, mods please consider removing these posts and some holidays.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, taotoo said:

If anyone on this thread is an experienced diver please indicate so in each of your posts so that we can sort the wheat from the chaff.

I'm an experienced diver, but never cave dived so that experience as related to this thread extends only to the equipment.

Just guessing, but I'd say there are few to zero experienced cave divers posting on TVF.

[dundas]

Sheryl, thank you for your contributions. Very objective and reassuring. 

[Jonathan Fairfield]

LATEST: Rescue operation believed to be underway - journalists investigated for eavesdropping on rescuer's radios

 

 

As of 3pm Monday - Reports of ambulances and helicopters arriving at Tham Luang, may suggest a rescue operation is underway, while officials say that journalists have been eavesdropping on the radios of rescue workers.

 

BBC reporters at the scene say divers resumed their rescue attempt between 10am and 11am local time.

 

But Channel News Asia reported that divers entered the cave at 1pm local time.

 

Other reports claim that more of the boys could exit the cave from 4pm onwards.

 

One noticeable thing from today is that there seems to be very little information - official or otherwise - coming from anyone involved in the rescue operation today.

 

Officials perhaps eager to avoid the media frenzy that took place on Sunday night, which resulted in reports of 6 boys being released, when actually only four had been rescued.

 

Channel News Asia reported that a school friend of some of the boys spoke at a press briefing.

 

The boy, identified as Warangchit or Chew, said he had been to the cave 4 times before and even went further inside than where the boys are trapped now.

 

Meanwhile a teacher at Mae Sai Prasitsart School school praised the 25 year old coach Ake who is trapped with the boys.

 

In a live video, Khoasod English reported that police are investigating a so far unnamed media organisation for scanning the radio fequency of rescue workers.

 

This resulted in information being distorted and incorrect reports being circulated that 6 boys had been rescued.

 

There is also an instance where reporters have been flying a drone near the rescue scene which is consider illegal as it could disrupt the rescue operation and fly into the flight path of both Chiang Rai airport and rescue helicopters. 

 

Officials also reported on the condition of the boys saying they were "hungry but in good health" and had asked to eat the Thai dish pad krapow moo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Halfaboy]

Has anybody an idea about the weight of an air / oxygen cylinder ?

 

Thanks ....

Edited July 9, 2018 by Halfaboy

[tropo]

1 hour ago, ginjag said:

EMERGENCY   evacuation because of drastic oxygen levels falling,   This morning I could not believe my eyes when it stated that they had a lack of full tanks of oxygen so it delayed the rest of the rescue.    May I ask who is the organiser of ordering enough full oxygen tanks ???     They should have been in place with more than  enough needed a week ago.  Now no news today yet.  WHY ???     have the kids oxygen enough in the cave   ??

That's an interesting question. I've seen 3 different reports about oxygen levels in the cave where the kids are, over the last 3 days:

 

1. Oxygen has dropped to 15%, which is borderline for human survival.

2. Oxygen levels are OK, as reported by British divers.  

3. No problems - fresh air is being piped in.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, ostyan said:

Maybe I am wrong, but I have seen reports on six than seven children escaped. I hope everybody will be out in good health soon.

Rumours, rumours, rumours.

No way they "escaped" last night. Initial reports were 6, but later corrected to 4.

[webfact]

Operation to rescue boys trapped in Thai cave resumes - officials

By Patpicha Tanakasempipat and James Pomfret

 

Police officers block a road leading to Tham Luang cave complex, where scoolboys are trapped in a flooded cave, in the northern province of Chiang Rai, Thailand, July 9, 2018. REUTERS/Soe Zeya Tun

 

CHIANG RAI, Thailand (Reuters) - A mission to rescue a group of Thai boys and their soccer coach trapped in a flooded cave in Thailand resumed on Monday, officials said, after the first four boys, rescued the previous day, were judged healthy as they recovered in hospital.

 

The dangerous bid to rescue the boys - aged between 11 and 16 - resumed after a break on Sunday night to replenish oxygen supplies and make other preparations deep inside the cave complex in northern Thailand's Chiang Rai province.

 

Authorities have said the mission could take three or four days to complete.

 

Multiple sources with knowledge of the operation told Reuters the operation to rescue more of the nine boys and their coach was underway, although no official confirmation was issued.

 

"The mission has resumed," a government official closely involved in the mission told Reuters, declining to be identified.

 

The boys and their coach set out to explore the vast Tham Luang cave complex after soccer practice on June 23, and got trapped when a rainy season downpour flooded the tunnels.

 

British divers discovered the 13, huddled on a muddy bank in a partly flooded chamber deep several kilometres inside the complex, on Monday last week.

 

Then the problem became how to get them out as more rainy season showers loomed.

 

The rescue began on Sunday.

 

Divers held the first four boys close to bring them out and each had to wear an oxygen mask, authorities said.

 

Heavy rain soaked the area overnight, increasing the risks in what has been called a "war with water and time" to save the boys. But the rain largely held off on Monday.

 

Interior Minister Anupong Paochinda told reporters the rescued boys were in good health in hospital but did not give details.

 

Authorities have not confirmed the identity of the first four boys freed. Some of the boys' parents told Reuters they had not been told who had been rescued and that they were not allowed to visit the hospital.

 

The head of the rescue mission, Narongsak Osottanakorn, said last week they would bring the fittest people in the group out first.

 

Somboon Sompiangjai, 38, the father of one of the trapped boys, said parents were told by rescuers ahead of Sunday's operation the "strongest children" would be brought out first.

 

"We have not been told which child has been brought out ... We can't visit our boys in hospital because they need to be monitored for 48 hours," Somboon told Reuters.

 

"I'm hoping for good news today," he said.

 

Thirteen foreign divers and five members of Thailand's elite navy SEAL unit are the main team guiding the boys to safety through narrow, submerged passageways that claimed the life of a former Thai navy diver on Friday.

 

Thailand cave rescue: Hope for the 13 - https://tmsnrt.rs/2KR2zRj

 

(Reporting by Panu Wongcha-um, Patpicha Tanakasempipat, John Geddie and James Pomfret in CHIANG RAI; Additional reporting by Amy Sawitta Lefevre, Panarat Thepgumpanat, Pracha Hariraksapitak, and Aukkarapon Niyomyat in BANGKOK; Writing by John Geddie; Editing by Amy Sawitta Lefevre, Robert Birsel)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-07-09

[Elkski]

None of us know the route conditions.   It's is raining.  If pumps fail and rain continues some of those original divers know what it can be like.   Maybe they learned better yesterday how many tanks are used.  Have all available tanks full and at the stations seems a no brainer.  I'm a diver but what experience does that give me for this sort of thing.

[chickenslegs]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan Fairfield said:

There is also an instance where reporters have been flying a drone near the rescue scene which is consider illegal as it could disrupt the rescue operation and fly into the flight path of both Chiang Rai airport and rescue helicopters. 

Where is that Deputy Police Chief when he's needed.

 

He was roundly criticized for questioning people who were flying drones last week - maybe he had a point.

[lopburi3]

The official news briefing said the same diving team started rescue operations today aT 1100.  That conditions inside cave are the same as yesterday.

[tropo]

10 minutes ago, Halfaboy said:

Has anybody an idea about the weight of an air / oxygen cylinder ?

 

Thanks ....

Full standard aluminium scuba tanks weigh almost 20kg. I think that is what they are using. Steel tanks will weigh more.

 

It's a huge undertaking to carry spare tanks into this cave... especially 2 - 4km in. They need to dive in some areas, so they have one on their back to breathe from while they carry the extra tank. In two areas the tunnel is too narrow to wear a tank, so they would be dragging their own breathing tank as well as the spare one.

Edited July 9, 2018 by tropo