VIDEO: British cave explorer Vern Unsworth considers legal action against Elon Musk

[africasiaeuro]

To Vern's credit it must be said he is right. The minisub ( only a diver will know ) is not suitable to cross the narrow passages.

To Elon's accusations: Vern should make a public statement to a) either deny the accusations or b) to admit there is a problem. 

Then the world will know for certain. The problem is more widespread than generally assumed.

Older men in particular may suffer from it. 

Treatment is the key here.

Suing Elon may worsen public opinion, and may have a negative impact.

[JLCrab]

1 minute ago, tingtongtourist said:

what are you on about? 

you cant just go about publicly calling someone as being a pedo.

 

I agree sometime these laws get abused but i cant imagine a more apropriate reason to sue than this.

If someone calls you pedo in front of millions of audience what will you do?

In the USA all it takes to sue is a lawyer and a Court willing to recognize venue. However if the defense would want to consider Mr. Unsworth as a limited public person based on his appearance(s) on CNN, then he would not be suing the same as the normal private person.

[harrry]

54 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

 

 

why is jurisdiction for such a defamation action in thailand?

Because the tweets were available to be read here.  Remember the Swiss author who was arrested for something published only in Switzerland.

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by harrry

[JLCrab]

7 minutes ago, harrry said:

Because the tweets were available to be read here.  Remember the Swiss author who was arrested for something published only in Switzerland.

 

In the USA it would possible for Mr. Unsworth to find attorneys to take his libel case on a contingency basis. No such arrangement is legal in Thailand so who would be paying upfront for his legal fees?

[tingtongtourist]

5 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

In the USA all it takes to sue is a lawyer and a Court willing to recognize venue. However if the defense would want to consider Mr. Unsworth as a limited public person based on his appearance(s) on CNN, then he would not be suing the same as the normal private person.

well if so it come down to what is a definition of both types of person?

Are you saying if your case makes the news then you cant sue as normal person?

 

I dont pretend to know any about US law but Vern is more like a "one time" in the news.

not like he is a public media figure over many years?

[JLCrab]

11 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

well if so it come down to what is a definition of both types of person?

Are you saying if your case makes the news then you cant sue as normal person?

 

I dont pretend to know any about US law but Vern is more like a "one time" in the news.

not like he is a public media figure over many years?

Why not pretend -- lots of others are?

 

But the definition of a limited purpose public figure from case law is : 

"... those who have thrust themselves to the forefront of particular public controversies in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved."

 

But the case would be much different if, rather than on CNN, Mr. Unsworth had made those comments privately in a bar or restaurant and someone overhead and it got back to Mr. Musk and THEN Mr. Musk made his comments on Twitter.

Edited July 17, 2018 by JLCrab

[harrry]

14 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

In the USA it would possible for Mr. Unsworth to find attorneys to take his libel case on a contingency basis. No such arrangement is legal in Thailand so who would be paying upfront for his legal fees?

It is a criminal not a civil case here

 

[tingtongtourist]

3 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Why not pretend -- lots of others are.

 

But the definition of a limited purpose public figure from case law is : 

"... those who have "thrust themselves to the forefront of particular public controversies in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved."

sounds strange to me but if you say so.

 

so, if anyone fits this definition then any other can accuse or say whatever they want and then get away with it?

 

Verns argument is one guy against another, not involving a larger public, or is that not considered?

[JLCrab]

8 minutes ago, harrry said:

It is a criminal not a civil case here

 

In Thailand it could be either. You can initiate a civil case but the police have to file charges and arrest you in a criminal case and you still would have to convince them to do that. There are ways for a private citizen to initiate criminal proceedings but that again would be a very expensive proposition.

Edited July 17, 2018 by JLCrab

[Jim1000]

Time to sell my Tesla shares - sorry share .

[KKr]

2 hours ago, Jingjock said:

That appears to be another deformation statement, boy we are going to have fun with this post

apparently tongue in cheek is not understood in this scientific exchange of opinions.

[canuckamuck]

Have you ever done something charitable, at your own expense and then had it thrown back in your face.

Looking at things from Musk's side, here's a guy that is convinced he has a chance to make a difference. He takes some of his valuable people and has them work on this project through the night. They come up with what they must have believed was a workable solution. The guys are actual rocket scientists and not likely to under think the situation. At the same time he is being encouraged by one of the divers to keep working on his idea.

Then he puts the thing on a plane and flies around the globe and presents his work.

And then some guy he has never met, tells him to stick it where it hurts and slags him off on CNN.

Do you think that might bother you a little bit if it were you? Do you think you wouldn't have some choice words for the discourteous chap?

Did Musk overeact? Obviously he did, and that is a shame. But should Vern be allowed to profit from the trouble that he himself had caused? 

Vern was the first to attack someone's character. He should just walk away now and stop picking fights.

[atyclb]

44 minutes ago, harrry said:

1 hour ago, atyclb said:

 

 

 

why is jurisdiction for such a defamation action in thailand?

Because the tweets were available to be read here.  Remember the Swiss author who was arrested for something published only in Switzerland.

 

 

how long u been practicing law?  me thinks there might be more involved in jurisdiction since typically anything on the internet can theoretically be seen around the world

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, AYJAYDEE said:

1 guy leads to a conclusion of "most".?lol!! better try again

Without reading the book, it seems difficult to draw conclusions...

 

It is not because a book (or a movie) is centered around one character that there are not plenty of others, and in this case there are...

 

As a matter of fact, the names of two US presidents appear more than once, among others...

[harrry]

8 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

how long u been practicing law?  me thinks there might be more involved in jurisdiction since typically anything on the internet can theoretically be seen around the world

here is a cased in point

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/425k-in-damages-in-trout-point-defamation-case-1.1221027

[JLCrab]

10 minutes ago, harrry said:

here is a cased in point

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/425k-in-damages-in-trout-point-defamation-case-1.1221027

From the above case:

The Nova Scotia Supreme Court decision comes after two years of comments on an American blog, incorrectly linking Trout Point Lodge to a Louisiana political corruption scandal ...

"He has continued to defame us in a very torturous way, accusing us of all sorts of criminal acts — involvement in this corruption scandal, money laundering, racketeering, misleading investors and bilking local contractors," he said.

Edited July 17, 2018 by JLCrab

[atyclb]

8 minutes ago, harrry said:

17 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

how long u been practicing law?  me thinks there might be more involved in jurisdiction since typically anything on the internet can theoretically be seen around the world

here is a cased in point

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/425k-in-damages-in-trout-point-defamation-case-1.1221027

 

 

maybe im just tired. the canadian court sided with plaintiff in canada. it said blogger was american or in america?  how will the canadian plaintiff collect award if defendant resides in america short of defendant having canadian assets?

[harrry]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

From the above case:

The Nova Scotia Supreme Court decision comes after two years of comments on an American blog, incorrectly linking Trout Point Lodge to a Louisiana political corruption scandal.

Yes Nova Scotia is in Caanada....The person in canada  could sue.  Collection could I guess be made against any of the defendants assets in Canada if any.

In the case of Thailand of course the penalty for not paying if he came here would be at least not to leave.  Possibly with free acomodation provided.

It is not where you write that determines where you can be sued.

 

[Horace]

22 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Not sure I could just forget what musk called him. 

You can't and should not "forget" what Musk said.  If you do, some will unfairly think there is some truth to what he said.  Moreover, and more important, Musk must take responsibility for what he said.  Musk not only insulted Unsworth, he insulted the entire Kingdom of Thailand.

 

Musk could start to make this go away by unilaterally issuing a public apology and donating tens of millions to a reputable Thai charity, such as the Thai Red Cross.  He has not done any of that.  He is unrepentant.

 

This is a multimillionaire dollar claim and there are plenty of good lawyers in California (that is where Musk lives) who would gladly take this on a contingency fee basis.  Its also unlikely to to trial because Musk's lawyers, if they have any sense, will press him hard to settle this case as quickly as possible.  This is an easy call: sue the bastard and hold him to account for his slander.

[JLCrab]

I have many times said: You have to find a court that recognizes venue. The Lodge that was harmed was physically in Nova Scotia and the damages claimed were in Nova Scotia. So venue was not much of an issue regardless of where the defendant was physically located.

 

In the US publishers have recently won a large claim against a Russian torrent site. And expect that that they will never collect but the site has been shut down as have follow-up sites.

 

So if Mr. Unsworth wants to sue he has to find a Court who recognizes venue.

Edited July 17, 2018 by JLCrab

[Baerboxer]

22 hours ago, Shroud said:

Musk could easily win this case since Vern started the rant. Everyone tried to offer help in this severe situation so to blame Elon for his mini-sub and call it a PR-stunt isn't something that has valid points. In the beginning, it was the thai authorities that pleaded for international help and they got it, including Vern Unsworth. 

I'm not siding with Elon, but Vern went too far with his remarks on CNN.

 

Do you appreciate the defamation of accusing someone of being a pedophile publicly?

 

Your suggestion that Musk could win this case is based on what exactly?

 

Musk has zero cave diving experience, and his motives for wanting "to help" when he has little if any helpful knowledge are questionable. He does have a reputation for disgusting fowl mouthed tweets attacking any who dare criticize or make negative comments. The fact these outrageous tweets were quickly removed suggests his legal team may have hoped removing them would end it.

 

Whether Mr. Unsworth's went too far or not is immaterial. It provoked a vile backlash from a man who hides behind his money. I hope he realizes that should Mr. Unsworth complain that defamation is a criminal as well as civil offense in Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

7 minutes ago, Horace said:

You can't and should not "forget" what Musk said.  If you do, some will unfairly think there is some truth to what he said.  Moreover, and more important, Musk must take responsibility for what he said.  Musk not only insulted Unsworth, he insulted the entire Kingdom of Thailand.

 

Musk could start to make this go away by unilaterally issuing a public apology and donating tens of millions to a reputable Thai charity, such as the Thai Red Cross.  He has not done any of that.  He is unrepentant.

 

This is a multimillionaire dollar claim and there are plenty of good lawyers in California (that is where Musk lives) who would gladly take this on a contingency fee basis.  Its also unlikely to to trial because Musk's lawyers, if they have any sense, will press him hard to settle this case as quickly as possible.  This is an easy call: sue the bastard and hold him to account for his slander.

 

I believe Must will also be under some pressure from his major shareholders to settle this quickly. They guy's an <deleted> and it it goes to court he deserves to be made an example of.

[Baerboxer]

42 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Have you ever done something charitable, at your own expense and then had it thrown back in your face.

Looking at things from Musk's side, here's a guy that is convinced he has a chance to make a difference. He takes some of his valuable people and has them work on this project through the night. They come up with what they must have believed was a workable solution. The guys are actual rocket scientists and not likely to under think the situation. At the same time he is being encouraged by one of the divers to keep working on his idea.

Then he puts the thing on a plane and flies around the globe and presents his work.

And then some guy he has never met, tells him to stick it where it hurts and slags him off on CNN.

Do you think that might bother you a little bit if it were you? Do you think you wouldn't have some choice words for the discourteous chap?

Did Musk overeact? Obviously he did, and that is a shame. But should Vern be allowed to profit from the trouble that he himself had caused? 

Vern was the first to attack someone's character. He should just walk away now and stop picking fights.

 

If you ever want to buy a submarine designed specifically for a special underwater operation you got to rocket scientists! Right to.

 

Just off to the dentists to check my blood pressure and bronchitis.

[Brunolem]

49 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Have you ever done something charitable, at your own expense and then had it thrown back in your face.

Looking at things from Musk's side, here's a guy that is convinced he has a chance to make a difference. He takes some of his valuable people and has them work on this project through the night. They come up with what they must have believed was a workable solution. The guys are actual rocket scientists and not likely to under think the situation. At the same time he is being encouraged by one of the divers to keep working on his idea.

Then he puts the thing on a plane and flies around the globe and presents his work.

 

As far as inventions are concerned, I would put Elon Musk in a group together with figures like Leonardo Da Vinci and Jules Vernes.

 

He comes up with new ideas on a daily basis, the vast majority of them not fitted for the real world, for various reasons.

 

In his time, Da Vinci was called to the rescue, on different issues, many times, and his ideas proved impractical or too difficult to implement.

 

Yet, while Da Vinci and Vernes had the good idea to consign most of their ideas on paper, Musk wants to put them into application right away (probably because he is not as modest as his predecessors).

 

Thus, Musk finds himself involved in many developing-unfinished businesses, puting immense pressure on him (and on his shareholders).

 

Tesla is actually assembling its Model 3 under a tent, and skipping some tests to increase the production!

 

It has been calculated that running his battery factory, located far from everything, actually generates more toxic emissions that it saves!

 

Meanwhile, there are the Boring company busy to dig a tunnel for an improbable hyperloop, the ongoing projects for the Moon and Mars, the flame thrower and other gadgets typical of a Da Vinci...

 

The only company that really performs is Space X...because it has the support of NASA.

 

The cave submarine was obviously a stunt, and I would bet a signed dollar that we will never hear again about it!

 

Musk needs to be constantly in the news because this is how he attracts attention, and by extension the very much needed funding for his money losing businesses.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Brunolem

[Chongalulu]

22 hours ago, Shroud said:

Musk could easily win this case since Vern started the rant. Everyone tried to offer help in this severe situation so to blame Elon for his mini-sub and call it a PR-stunt isn't something that has valid points. In the beginning, it was the thai authorities that pleaded for international help and they got it, including Vern Unsworth. 

I'm not siding with Elon, but Vern went too far with his remarks on CNN.

To understand the legal standpoint there is no case to bring against someone who disagrees with your opinion and tells you ,even in an offensive manner,to go away. However to make an unsubstantiated allegation that someone is a paedophile (or other criminal ) most certainly is . Musk may have deep pockets but Unsworth, in a case as strong as his, would certainly have no shortage of no win no fee lawyers willing to take on his case . He would bring the case,not in Thailand,but in USA which  Musk could not ignore and the damages would be substantial.

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, moontang said:

Ironic that Trumps tweet about the cave was totally appropriate and in good taste, but the lifeless Leftists came out and bashed him anyways, while defending Obama's friend Musk.

 

 

Musk was bullied as a child.  Thrown down the stairs and beaten unconscious.  Kind of on the short side, too.  He definitely has issues, but as stated, had he made that comment as the CEO of XOM or Pfizer; he would have been escorted to the exit.  But solar is all fuzzy wuzzy and oddly he is allowed to get away with murder.

Sorry, but all politics aside, he made a very ignorant statement about a hero. How many lives has Musk saved lately? He is alot dumber than we thought. I used to admire the guy. But, after reading many of the statements he has made over the years, I withdraw my admiration, thank you very much. In this day and age, you just cannot get away with being very ignorant anymore. Not like in the past where super fools like Trump, Musk, Schnatter, the fool attorney in NYC, the ridiculous clown in SF who shouted down the young kid who was selling water, said really dumb things, and got away with it. Not any more. And that is a good thing. Despite your personal war on the media, as instructed by the master. 

[JLCrab]

17 minutes ago, Horace said:

<snip>

This is a multimillionaire dollar claim and there are plenty of good lawyers in California (that is where Musk lives) who would gladly take this on a contingency fee basis.  Its also unlikely to to trial because Musk's lawyers, if they have any sense, will press him hard to settle this case as quickly as possible.  This is an easy call: sue the bastard and hold him to account for his slander.

If you think this case would be such a lead-pipe cinch, why would Musk's lawyers not contact Mr. Unsworth and negotiate a settlement prior to any lawsuit. Once a lawsuit goes forward, the Musk deep-pocket legal team might squeeze the resources of any law firm who took on the contingency case which maybe under California libel law might not be such a lead-pipe cinch.

[toofarnorth]

1 hour ago, balo said:

Yes, that's why we all should sue him.  It will give people the wrong ideas why I choose to live here.

 

I wonder what the cave kids think about all this ?  Their hero are being accused of being a kiddie fiddler.

 

 

 

Next month my eldest daughter her hubby and 3 g/daughters are coming over here . I wonder if the smell of Musk will pervade the trip.

Ok for the 100th time the kids were out the cave because Vern reacted so quick he deserves none of this flak.

[wealthychef]

23 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

IMHO, it isn't worth it. Everyone knows who and what Elon Musk is. The man's a space cadet.

 

Um, totally worth it, since he's a multi-billionaire and publicly defamed the guy.  Should be easy money.  

 

[JLCrab]

2 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

Um, totally worth it, since he's a multi-billionaire and publicly defamed the guy.  Should be easy money.  

 

But maybe not in California as the libel laws there might work against Mr. Unsworth.

Edited July 17, 2018 by JLCrab