Major Change Eff 1 Apr 19 in Bangkok Bank ACH Transfers

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 hours ago, srowndedbyh2o said:

However, when doing a domestic wire transfer, doesn’t the sending bank require the recipients address? Since that recipient address is an address in Thailand, wouldn’t the sending bank just reject the transfer? Or are they only concerned that the routing number is that of a bank in the US?

 

I've had extended discussions with the transfers person at BKKB NY about that very topic. And basically, they (BKKB NY) don't really care or pay much attention to whether the sender lists the recipient's address as being in TH or the US. I've done domestic wires thru them both ways, and both went thru just fine.

 

On the other hand, it MIGHT matter somewhere down the line to whatever bank or brokerage you're using to initiate the domestic wire to BKKB NY.  I wondered, if they're paying attention and see a domestic U.S. wire to a recipient showing a TH address, is that going to create some potential issue.

 

So if I were leaning, I'd probably be leaning toward using a U.S. address for the wire's recipient, presuming the sender/recipient had a U.S. address to use. Just to avoid any potential issues with the sending entity. But as I said above, BKKB NY doesn't care one way or the other, as long as their ABA # is correct and your BKKB TH account number is correct.

 

[coccigelus]

Bank accounts are used to verify identity of a person which can’t be done with the same accuracy by a service like TW. Having said that I am very incline to think that there are some rules to prevent potential illegal activity that seems to affect especially usd transfers from US brokerage account right now. My guess is that is somewhat related to the policies issued after 9/11. As a US friend once said your business is our business...  

[coccigelus]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

 

Transferwise (TW) is indeed not a bank; they are a payment service provided.  See the quotes I cut and pasted from their Customer Agreement/Terms of Agreement.  Even when you have a borderless acct with TW that is really an acct with TW and not its partner bank(s). Now TW does indeed have a "master" bank acct with its partner bank(s), but when you get issued a borderless acct your are really just being issued a TW acct linked to that master acct.  

 

I expect IB is just taking the position that they know how TW operates with their borderless acct setup and what TW really is--a payment service vs a bank.   And for whatever reasons IB does not want to do transfers to a payment service--surely just "their" policy.   

 

Over the last few years I remember seeing a few (just a few) ThaiVisa posts here and there where a person's US bank deleted a person's ACH Transfer Link or Bill Pay the person had setup to push funds to TW...once again, it just seemed to be that particular bank's policy that they didn't consider TW meeting the requirements for a transfer/electronic billpay.    

 

Below partial quotes from TW Terms of Agreement

 

 

 

Remaining out the JP fiduciary bank venue banning. Are You incline to think this is a mistake worth opening a ticket? 

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

I couldn't say...based purely on that KB article I would ask for clarification...say your reading of the article indicates the transfer link is OK with some explanation of why you think it's OK.  But I expect that KB article is a high level explanation and doesn't include fine print/internal policy/unwritten aspects of their decision to shut the transfer link down.    

[Thailand J]

On 7/11/2020 at 12:40 AM, coccigelus said:

To those that have an IB brokerage account It seems are coming bad news having just received the following: See pics. 

 

So what options are still available to send money in Thailand? Is US Bangkok Bank route a still viable option ?

 

So TW usd account & Bangkok bank via JP morgan routes closed. Note that My IB account address report correctly my residency which is Thailand. Look absurd this situation. 

My IB account was opened with my USA passport and my Thai address. I have not been given such notice so i assume i can continue to wire via JPMorgan. I may get the notice or may not. While you are trying to pin point the reason for the notification, i suggest you try IB domestic wire, which can be set up using Bangkok Bank NY ABA number. First withdrawal of the month is free at IB it can be domestic wire.

 

I can only guess the season for the restriction being imposed on your account is that you are not a US citizen, may be?

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Thailand J

[coccigelus]

PIB, I would post it back as soon as I will get an answer by IB as I decided to ask clarifications on their decision. I appreciate your further thoughts and Yes what You wrote is a possibility. 

 

Thailand J I am not a US citizen, I am European with an European passport,  but anyway I do not think is fine having the international wires flagged into the country where I have my residency which is on file with IB. I do not think the US passport is the reason behind but well I can be wrong and somewhat I would not be surprise if that is the case. 

 

I guess we need to wait in order to get further clarifications, if any is given.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by coccigelus

[Pib]

Good luck....I know it's extremely frustrating as banksters (i.e., banks, brokerages, etc) can sometimes cause extreme frustration with their policies.

[JimGant]

22 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I wondered, if they're paying attention and see a domestic U.S. wire to a recipient showing a TH address, is that going to create some potential issue.

The templates of some sending banks, like the example here from USAA, has "United States" embedded as the country of receipt; no option for a foreign address, 'cause this, after all, is a domestic wire... If it were an International wire, then there's a different template -- one that demands the receiver's physical address and purpose of wire, those extra data elements demanded by anti-money laundering laws -- and which finally caught up with Bangkok Bank sending domestic ACH transfers internationally. So, they were told to use the international ACH coding for such transfers. But, I guess the Feds said nothing about domestic wires floating across the pond. Thus, good deal for us (especially if you get free domestic wires, like I do).

Anyway, in USAA's case, you could use John Doe as the recipient, as it will end up in the account number designated. Bangkok Bank doesn't care either, as John has pointed out.

As for address -- this too is worthless for tracking. USAA only asks for Zip code, and my first wire I used the Zip code of Bangkok Bank NY; my second, I used my former Zip code in Virginia. Worthless information, other than, maybe, to assert you're wiring the money *within* the US....(?).

 

 

[OneZero]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

The templates of some sending banks, like the example here from USAA, has "United States" embedded as the country of receipt; no option for a foreign address, 'cause this, after all, is a domestic wire... If it were an International wire, then there's a different template -- one that demands the receiver's physical address and purpose of wire, those extra data elements demanded by anti-money laundering laws -- and which finally caught up with Bangkok Bank sending domestic ACH transfers internationally. So, they were told to use the international ACH coding for such transfers. But, I guess the Feds said nothing about domestic wires floating across the pond. Thus, good deal for us (especially if you get free domestic wires, like I do).

Anyway, in USAA's case, you could use John Doe as the recipient, as it will end up in the account number designated. Bangkok Bank doesn't care either, as John has pointed out.

As for address -- this too is worthless for tracking. USAA only asks for Zip code, and my first wire I used the Zip code of Bangkok Bank NY; my second, I used my former Zip code in Virginia. Worthless information, other than, maybe, to assert you're wiring the money *within* the US....(?).

 

 

Jim, Pib, 

Now I'm confused. From your example above it appears that if one puts in a recipients zip code that is in the USA(actually just a friend, relative, etc) the money will indeed be sent to Bangkok Bank Public Co ltd ABA 026008691 (located in NY) who will then forward the money to the specific account located in Thailand?

 

I thought that that was exactly what all the prior hubup was about, & Bangkok Bank had to finally stop it? 

Ya, now I'mk confused.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, OneZero said:

From your example above it appears that if one puts in a recipients zip code that is in the USA(actually just a friend, relative, etc) the money will indeed be sent to Bangkok Bank Public Co ltd ABA 026008691 (located in NY) who will then forward the money to the specific account located in Thailand?

Recipient's name, recipient's "US domestic or APO/FPO" zip code are completely irrelevant to the wire's successful receipt. But, somewhere along the line such info was required to be entered on the wire request, regardless that it could not or would not ever be verified.

 

Quote

I thought that that was exactly what all the prior hubup was about, & Bangkok Bank had to finally stop it? 

Wire transfers have always been in two flavors -- domestic and international. Thus, by definition, you had to (er, were supposed to) choose international for money going abroad. Now, ACH only got the international add-on (International ACH Transactions - IAT) when it became apparent that supposedly domestic only ACH transactions were going abroad (and escaping data elements in place for added security). Now, with two avenues for ACH transactions, the law put its foot down and told Bangkok Bank (and others) to quit using domestic ACH transactions for international transfers -- or pay a fine. Now, this didn't mean that you couldn't still mechanically send a domestic ACH overseas -- it just meant that the Feds told Bangkok Bank to cease and desist with this activity. So they did. But apparently the Feds forgot to tell Bangkok Bank that the spirit of this new ACH law encompassed domestic wire transfers -- but, hey, it's the letter of the law that counts, right? And I guess the domestic wire tree wasn't apparent amongst all the ACH trees in this bureaucratic forest. Can't blame Bangkok Bank for profitably using a system not specifically prohibited...

[OneZero]

9 hours ago, JimGant said:

Recipient's name, recipient's "US domestic or APO/FPO" zip code are completely irrelevant to the wire's successful receipt. But, somewhere along the line such info was required to be entered on the wire request, regardless that it could not or would not ever be verified.

 

Wire transfers have always been in two flavors -- domestic and international. Thus, by definition, you had to (er, were supposed to) choose international for money going abroad. Now, ACH only got the international add-on (International ACH Transactions - IAT) when it became apparent that supposedly domestic only ACH transactions were going abroad (and escaping data elements in place for added security). Now, with two avenues for ACH transactions, the law put its foot down and told Bangkok Bank (and others) to quit using domestic ACH transactions for international transfers -- or pay a fine. Now, this didn't mean that you couldn't still mechanically send a domestic ACH overseas -- it just meant that the Feds told Bangkok Bank to cease and desist with this activity. So they did. But apparently the Feds forgot to tell Bangkok Bank that the spirit of this new ACH law encompassed domestic wire transfers -- but, hey, it's the letter of the law that counts, right? And I guess the domestic wire tree wasn't apparent amongst all the ACH trees in this bureaucratic forest. Can't blame Bangkok Bank for profitably using a system not specifically prohibited...

Thanks Jim, good explanation.

[OneZero]

19 minutes ago, OneZero said:

Thanks Jim, good explanation.

Jim, PS,

1.  USAA website says domestic wires cost $20.  What magic words did you use to get USAA to grant you FREE domestic wires?

2.  Is there any negative impact on the exchange rate compared to using a USAA international wire, which costs $20 + $25 = $45?  (Even if there is I'm guessing it would not be more than the added $25 charge of USAA's international wire fee compared to the normal domestic fee of $20).

Edited July 14, 2020 by OneZero

[Pib]

12 hours ago, OneZero said:

Jim, Pib, 

Now I'm confused. From your example above it appears that if one puts in a recipients zip code that is in the USA(actually just a friend, relative, etc) the money will indeed be sent to Bangkok Bank Public Co ltd ABA 026008691 (located in NY) who will then forward the money to the specific account located in Thailand?

 

I thought that that was exactly what all the prior hubup was about, & Bangkok Bank had to finally stop it? 

Ya, now I'mk confused.

All the hubup related to transfers using the ACH system not to the Fedwire/CHIPS system used for wires. 

 

ACH and Fedwire/CHIPS are different systems with different rules with different masters.   While Fedwire/CHIPS still uses routing and acct numbers just like ACH, the systems and settlement process is different.   ACH is more of a batch, takes a while system.....where Fedwire/CHIPS is a get it done now, within 24 hours system.   See below website/partial quote for a layman's description.   And as nice to know although CHIPS is primary owned by U.S. banks there are several foreign banks who also own/are part of CHIPS such as Bangkok Bank.   

 

https://medium.com/@jameslee_54071/how-payments-are-cleared-and-settled-fedwire-chips-ach-8371c5ebfe05

 

Quote

 

Fedwire, CHIPS, ACH

The acronynms means:

CHIPS: clearing house interbank payment system

 

ACH: automated clearing house

 

Fedwire and CHIPS are used for large value domestic and international USD payments.

 

The difference between Fedwire and CHIPS:

1. Fedwire is owned by the Fed. CHIPS is owned privately, by banks that use it.
2. CHIPS has 59 members. They are mostly large US banks, and US branch of other international banks. Fedwire has over 9000.
3.  
4. CHIPS is netted, so not real time. Fedwire is not netted, so it’s real time.
5. Fedwire is more expensive than CHIPS

ACH is batched. It’s mostly for low value, but high volume. It’s generally for domestic. The fee is lowest of the 3.

 

 

[OneZero]

Thanks Pib, finally I'm going to repeat my questions to Jim about USAA's domestic fee, and add a third question for those possibly considering a domestic wire to BKK BK NY, as a way to satisfy their monthly 65K baht immigration requirement, or money for a Farang condo purchase (see question #3 below).

Jim, Pib, PS,

1.  USAA website says domestic wires cost $20.  What magic words did you use to get USAA to grant you FREE domestic wires?

2.  Is there any negative impact on the exchange rate compared to using a USAA international wire, which costs $20 + $25 = $45?  (Even if there is I'm guessing it would not be more than the added $25 charge of USAA's international wire fee compared to the normal domestic fee of $20).

3.  Again, I'm just guessing, but possibly there may indeed be some "catch 22" negatives about getting it ID'd in your bank book (or bank office computer) as coming from overseas.  

Edited July 14, 2020 by OneZero

[Pib]

34 minutes ago, OneZero said:

Thanks Pib, finally I'm going to repeat my questions to Jim about USAA's domestic fee, and add a third question for those possibly considering a domestic wire to BKK BK NY, as a way to satisfy their monthly 65K baht immigration requirement.  See question #3 below:

Jim, Pib, PS,

1.  USAA website says domestic wires cost $20.  What magic words did you use to get USAA to grant you FREE domestic wires? 

2.  Is there any negative impact on the exchange rate compared to using a USAA international wire, which costs $20 + $25 = $45?  (Even if there is I'm guessing it would not be more than the added $25 charge of USAA's international wire fee compared to the normal domestic fee of $20).

3.  Again, I'm just guessing, but possibly there may indeed be some "catch 22" negatives about getting it ID'd in your bank book as coming from overseas.  

1.  I don't know of any magic words to get a free domestic wire at USAA.  But maybe for folks who have over a certain total balance (i.e, bank deposts, mutual funds, etc) do....I don't know.  Domestic wire sending fees at US financial institutions vary widely just like international wire fees...domestic wire fees can range from zero for some customers to usually in the $20-$30 ballpark depending on how fee-evil the bank is. 

2.  When you do a domestic wire only USD flow....other currencies, exchange rate is not part of the picture.  The exchange rate you get will be the Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate just like used for an ACH IAT or SWIFT transfer.   Keep in mind the Bangkok Bank fees of the NY branch and receiving branch will still be applied when doing a domestic transfer.  If you do a USAA International Wire you can choose between sending USD or foreign currency....be sure to choose USD as western banks exchange rates are worst/lower than Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate.

3.  No catch 22 for transfer description on the receiving end....the domestic wire that Bangkok Bank NY will relay will be coded as International Wire/FTT in your Bangkok Bank passbook/ibanking.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Pib

[OneZero]

Thanks Pib, both your & Jim's input has clarified a lot for me.

Don't ya just love bureaurocracy!

[JimGant]

44 minutes ago, OneZero said:

USAA website says domestic wires cost $20.  What magic words did you use to get USAA to grant you FREE domestic wires?

They never told me and I never asked. I didn't know anything about it until I did my first domestic wire and saw "wire fee waived, thanks for your loyalty." Maybe that has something to do with joining USAA 52 years ago as a 2nd Lt. .....(?).

 

Quote

Is there any negative impact on the exchange rate compared to using a USAA international wire

Same for both -- the buying TT rate at the time of receipt. And the receiving fees are the same (.0025%, 200 min, 500 max).

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

They never told me and I never asked. I didn't know anything about it until I did my first domestic wire and saw "wire fee waived, thanks for your loyalty." Maybe that has something to do with joining USAA 52 years ago as a 2nd Lt. .....(?).

Or having a gazillion dollars worth of assets with USAA.  That's why I want to come live with you but you keep saying no! ????

[srowndedbyh2o]

On 7/11/2020 at 5:17 PM, Pib said:

A person can have a US bank acct with a foriegn address.

Unfortunately, all my U.S. bank accounts (including Schwab) state I must be a resident of the U.S, so I wouldn’t want to take a chance of sending up any red flags by using an address in Thailand when sending to my bank in Thailand.

Edited July 14, 2020 by srowndedbyh2o

[srowndedbyh2o]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:16 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I've had extended discussions with the transfers person at BKKB NY about that very topic. And basically, they (BKKB NY) don't really care or pay much attention to whether the sender lists the recipient's address as being in TH or the US.

I wasn’t really concerned about BKK Bank NY, since they are the ones that created this transfer process in the first place. It’s my sending bank I was concerned with. (see next post).

[srowndedbyh2o]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:16 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

On the other hand, it MIGHT matter somewhere down the line to whatever bank or brokerage you're using to initiate the domestic wire to BKKB NY.  I wondered, if they're paying attention and see a domestic U.S. wire to a recipient showing a TH address, is that going to create some potential issue.

 

So if I were leaning, I'd probably be leaning toward using a U.S. address for the wire's recipient, presuming the sender/recipient had a U.S. address to use. Just to avoid any potential issues with the sending entity. But as I said above, BKKB NY doesn't care one way or the other, as long as their ABA # is correct and your BKKB TH account number is correct.

 

Thanks for the help/suggestions.

After looking more in depth into my (new) sending bank account, I’ve found out that, although they offer free domestic wire transfers, the transfer can only be made to an account that is in my own name. When sending funds to my own account in Thailand, I guess I could just use my own U.S. address for the transfer.

But what I had wanted to do is send funds to a family member in Thailand, which unfortunately my bank does not allow. ????

Although Transferwise has worked great for me (using a different sending bank), I just want to have more options, “just in case”. I guess I could always resort to an International wire transfer through my Schwab account. It’s only $25. Although I seem to remember Pib posting a transfer fee comparison, and TW was usually came out better than an international wire transfer. Still, it’s an option.

[willyumcr]

6 hours ago, srowndedbyh2o said:

Thanks for the help/suggestions.

After looking more in depth into my (new) sending bank account, I’ve found out that, although they offer free domestic wire transfers, the transfer can only be made to an account that is in my own name. When sending funds to my own account in Thailand, I guess I could just use my own U.S. address for the transfer.

But what I had wanted to do is send funds to a family member in Thailand, which unfortunately my bank does not allow. ????

Although Transferwise has worked great for me (using a different sending bank), I just want to have more options, “just in case”. I guess I could always resort to an International wire transfer through my Schwab account. It’s only $25. Although I seem to remember Pib posting a transfer fee comparison, and TW was usually came out better than an international wire transfer. Still, it’s an option.

Just curious as the week ending Friday July 2nd my bank Charles Schwab whom I used to transfer funds using Transferwise was denied funds. Caused me a lot of problems with Transferwise. Finally I got this in an Email from Transferwise.

 

"Hi William, 

I am sorry for the inconvenience this situation has caused you. It at pears that CHARLES SCHWAB BANK had a downtime at the end of last week, which resulted in a processing error of a number of debit payments"

 

Did anyone else try to use Schwab and Transferwise at this Time?.

Edited July 15, 2020 by willyumcr
spelling error

[mtls2005]

On 7/11/2020 at 10:49 AM, Pib said:

The domestic wire to the NY branch worked fine when I did a test about 9 months ago....and I've had PMs with a person who successfully used it "over the last month."  You still incur the same Bangkok Bank costs as in the ACH method....that is, the NY branch pass-thru fee and the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank receiving fee.

 

 

On 7/11/2020 at 5:22 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I've done domestic wires thru BKKB NY within the past month, and they both worked flawlessly. I did the wire request online around dinner time here in TH, and the funds were in my BKKB TH account the next morning in each case for weekday transactions.

 

It's just a matter of using the 9-digit routing/ABA number for the BKKB NY branch and then the sender's full BKKB TH account number as the recipient information. BKKB NY takes care of the rest.

 

 

 

Do these post as FTT?

 

And if anyone knows, what does the Credit Advice Receipt show as details? Sending Bank? Ordering Institution?

 

 

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Do these post as FTT?

 

And if anyone knows, what does the Credit Advice Receipt show as details? Sending Bank? Ordering Institution?

 

 

Yes, they post as FTT.   Credit Advice will show sending bank, sender, etc. 

[mtls2005]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Credit Advice will show sending bank, sender, etc. 

 

Yes, of course. 

 

But what would those be?

 

Sending Bank is BBL/NYC, I presume.

 

Ordering Institution would be the bank from which the transfer originated?

 

Just asking someone with real-world, first-hand experience.

 

 

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Yes, of course. 

 

But what would those be?

 

Sending Bank is BBL/NYC, I presume.

 

Ordering Institution would be the bank from which the transfer originated?

 

Just asking someone with real-world, first-hand experience.

 

 

That was my real world first hand experience.  It shows where the money started its trek from/originated from...doesn't show BBL NY as the originator because they are simply a pass-thru bank  just like when a regular ACH transfer occurs.

[mtls2005]

21 minutes ago, Pib said:

That was my real world first hand experience.

 

A BBL CAR shows the sending bank (intermediary). And it shows the Ordering Institution.

 

Can you share the details of BBL CAR? What is listed as "Sending Bank"? "Ordering Institution"?

 

 

Does BBL NYC send USD to BBL THL in this process? I assume they do.

 

And what does the BBL CAR show as the method  under "Payment Received Via"

 

 

 

Maybe someone else who has used this method, and has a CAR handy can chime in?

 

TIA

[mackayae]

What is the ABA for BKKB NY?

[mtls2005]

The 9-digit routing number 026008691 of Bangkok Bank New York Branch, which acts as intermediary in the transaction. 

 

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Other-Services/Transfers/Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch

 

 

[Pib]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

A BBL CAR shows the sending bank (intermediary). And it shows the Ordering Institution.

 

Can you share the details of BBL CAR? What is listed as "Sending Bank"? "Ordering Institution"?

 

 

Does BBL NYC send USD to BBL THL in this process? I assume they do.

 

And what does the BBL CAR show as the method  under "Payment Received Via"

 

 

 

Maybe someone else who has used this method, and has a CAR handy can chime in?

 

TIA

 

Review of past CARs shows the ordering customer was my U.S. bank (which I will not mention) and Bangkok Bank NY  was the "From/Sending" bank (a.k.a., pass thru/relay).    In case of a Social Security Payment it shows SSA as the ordering entity with Bangkok Bank NY as the From/Sending bank.  

 

Bangkok Bank can provide two different CAR formats....one is a half page printout on computer paper and the other is a full page printout on A4 paper.  Both basically say the same thing...just slightly different formats.

 

When using a Wire/SWIFT or regular ACH transfer I sent USD from my U.S. banks, and Bangkok Bank NY relayed those USDs.  The exchange occurs at the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Pib