Australian researchers lay bare bloody history of colonial massacres

[rkidlad]

20 minutes ago, sirineou said:

who said that that you have to?

because those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  And this time it might be you on the losing end.

If you benefited  from it you need to make restitution, if you did not you should not.

Yes, maybe they can make restitution by paying more in income tax, etc. Let’s just hope people understand that we are not trying to alienate them, and they don’t vote for people like Donald Trump. 

 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

9 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

But what if you simply see yourself as an ‘individual’? You know - someone with their own thoughts and feelings. Should I feel guilty for the holocaust? Well, I’m not German. The Rwandan genicide? I’m not Rwandan.

 but you are Human and all of the above were done by humans. Individually you should not feel guilty . but collectively we all should feel ashamed

If we don't examine it and take steps to prevent it  from ever happening again and make restitution if we have profited from it., then we should feel guilty , .

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

 But rationalising it by saying that everyone did it it ,might make you feel better about it but it does not start to address the problem. Before a problem can be resolved one must admite that there is/was a problem.

Look at it from another perspective perhaps......... that the people at the time who were doing the "bad things/massacres/etc" didn't think that it was a problem, it was just a fact of life or death in those days, so there isn't really a problem??

 

Even if that doesn't gain traction, I remember a quote, but can't remember by whom, which went something like this, "the past is another country, they did things differently there".

 

Constantly trying to get the current generation to pay for the sins of their forefathers is a nonsense and I come from a country where this is, and has, been tried and despite a few "tribes" doing well with some of the money they have been given, for the rest, it just fosters alcoholism, state reliance, thuggery, robberies and violence and the statistics show that although the true indigenous people account for about 15% of the population, they represent over 70% in prison.

 

A sobering statistic which shows that pouring money into what some consider to be "a problem" doesn't work.

 

I will add a rider to this in as much as some of the monies paid out were as a result of the government of the time in effect "stealing" land which was already claimed by others. However the rest of the welfare payments do nothing but foster crime and laziness.
 

[maximillian]

On 7/27/2018 at 12:42 PM, robblok said:

Almost every country has done some bad things in the past, the Dutch in Indonesia and other place, the Americans, wiping out the native Americans (one of the first times where disease was used to kill giving infected blankets to the native Americans). The Belgians in the Kongo, the Germans and French and Italians in their colonies.  But if you go back even further then almost all bigger empires are build by conquest it was the norm back then. So do we still have to feel guilty that is the question. Not so sure as I as a Dutch guy feel not responsible for what others have done in the past. 

 

You/we and your/our whole generations are not responsible but you/we have to bear with the consequences. The Molukkers in NL, the Algerians in France, the Brits with Indians etc., the Germans with their relationship/conscious with certain nations.

(May I add the Israelis with the Palestinians and other Arabs ?)

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, xylophone said:

Look at it from another perspective perhaps......... that the people at the time who were doing the "bad things/massacres/etc" didn't think that it was a problem, it was just a fact of life or death in those days, so there isn't really a problem??

 putting  it in the proper perspective of the time it hapen , should not prevent as from examining it, ecnologing it happen, and taking steps so that it does not happen again

 

6 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Constantly trying to get the current generation to pay for the sins of their forefathers is a nonsense

.Unless one has profited from it, As an American I have profited from the displacement of the indigenous population,  I don't know if Australians have. 

[tropo]

17 hours ago, Tchooptip said:

Right, but at the same time, some in those countries do not hesitate to say daily that as heir, we Westerners are all guilty...and as so we should pay! 

New Zealand is a very good example of that... and all of their indigenous people are now of mixed race. It has become a money grab, pure and simple. The rest is just a smoke screen.

[rkidlad]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 but you are Human and all of the above were done by humans. Individually you should not feel guilty . but collectively we all should feel ashamed

If we don't examine it and take steps to prevent it  from ever happening again and make restitution if we have profited from it., then we should feel guilty , .

Okay, so now everyone should feel ashamed based on being human beings? Seems a little harsh, but I guess no one can claim it’s prejudiced. 

 

Teaching someone to be good and teaching someone not to feel guilty for something they didn’t do aren’t mutually exclusive. 

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, rkidlad said:

Okay, so now everyone should feel ashamed based on being human beings? Seems a little harsh, but I guess no one can claim it’s prejudiced. 

 

Teaching someone to be good and teaching someone not to feel guilty for something they didn’t do aren’t mutually exclusive. 

 No ! not feel ashamed for being a Human being, only feel ashamed for some of the things we do.

It was Plat who said " An unexamined life is not worth living" 

[sanuk711]

I dont think the Australians done anything wrong......its was those Brits......

[car720]

16 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

So what would Joliffe's character "Saltbush Bill" have to say about it, I wonder?

Much the same as Norman Lindsay I guess.

[rkidlad]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

 No ! not feel ashamed for being a Human being, only feel ashamed for some of the things we do.

It was Plat who said " An unexamined life is not worth living" 

No one said not to teach history. No one said to forget. Some people asked why they should feel guilty for something someone else did? 

 

There’s surely a better way to educate people to be good than pointing the finger. 

[car720]

16 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

So what would Joliffe's character "Saltbush Bill" have to say about it, I wonder?

I was thinking more of Witchetty's Tribe.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

who said that that you have to?

because those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  And this time it might be you on the losing end.

If you benefited  from it you need to make restitution, if you did not you should not.

Rubbish.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

who said that that you have to?

because those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  And this time it might be you on the losing end.

If you benefited  from it you need to make restitution, if you did not you should not.

Rubbish.

As every royal family in Europe is descended from, going back to their roots, the biggest baddest nastiest bast-rds of their time and became self appointed kings queens and so forth does that mean their descendants should make restitutions for their anscestors? 

How would that sit with the UK lot who are all descended from German stock?

Does changing the family name wipe out the family history.

Is there a cut off point in the past where it becomes unimportant?

[Saraphee]

There is doubt in my mind that attempting impose today's morality on the actions of one's fore-bearers leaves society open to as many misrepresentations as the former 'errors' it is attempting to solve.

[overherebc]

2 minutes ago, Saraphee said:

There is doubt in my mind that attempting impose today's morality on the actions of one's fore-bearers leaves society open to as many misrepresentations as the former 'errors' it is attempting to solve.

In reality there is no past, no future, only now.

The past can't be changed and tomorrow is promised to no-one.

[Nemises]

..introduced by the Europeans including alcohol...

Alcohol? Alcohol?? Did someone say Europeans introduced alcohol to the Natives? Well in that case, all is forgiven.. “we lub white fella long time”

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, overherebc said:

In reality there is no past, no future, only now.

The past can't be changed and tomorrow is promised to no-one.

Well it’s nice to read a bit of ‘Marcus Aurelius’ from time to time.

 

But think it best not to take individual quotes as you risk losing his overall message, notes to himself for self improvement.

[overherebc]

10 minutes ago, Gregster said:

Alcohol? Alcohol?? Did someone say Europeans introduced alcohol to the Natives? Well in that case, all is forgiven.. “we lub white fella long time”

Who introduced opium to the Europeans?

I forget. Maybe I've had too much alcohol. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

 No ! not feel ashamed for being a Human being, only feel ashamed for some of the things we do.

It was Plat who said " An unexamined life is not worth living" 

It is attributed to Socrates.

 

Refering to examination of one’s own life, not the examination of the life of others.

[Chomper Higgot]

It is of course easy to point at alcohol and drug abuse as a cause of problems within a cultural group, but it is worth asking the question ‘are these symptoms rather than causes?’

 

Across the globe we see evidence that when the culture and social structures of identifiable ‘cultral groups’ is destroyed or significantly disrupted the ‘group’ will exhibit these same common outcomes of alcoholism, drug abuse and social breakdown.

 

We see it amongst Australian Aboriginal society, Native American societies, it occurred at the collapse of the Soviet states and we see it too amongst the working classes following the collapse of employment in industrial towns, cities throughout Europe and the US.

[Thaidream]

19 hours ago, Tchooptip said:

Not so sure as I as a Dutch guy feel not responsible for what others have done in the past

 As an American I do not feel personally responsible for  destruction of the Indian Nations or slavery; but as a human being- I can only wonder what went through a person's mind and what was their moral compass to have assumed that the Native Americans needed to be destroyed and their land stolen and that it was all right to bring slaves from Africa to America; subjugate them as cheap labor and deny them human rights. How does one human being do that to another human being?

 

I would put  all of it whether in America or Australia or any other country to a feeling of superiority and arrogance as well as intolerance and downright racism. As a people, we owe it to the descendants of  these agrieved peoples to somehow right the wrong. 

 

All of our countries share a certain amount of guilt by destroying  the culture of the original inhabitants ; relegating them to reservations or in some cases concentration camps and forcing a new culture on them that they never wanted or possibly needed.  No amount of money can ever make it right but treating these people with respect and equal rights might make it better.

[overherebc]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

 As an American I do not feel personally responsible for  destruction of the Indian Nations or slavery; but as a human being- I can only wonder what went through a person's mind and what was their moral compass to have assumed that the Native Americans needed to be destroyed and their land stolen and that it was all right to bring slaves from Africa to America; subjugate them as cheap labor and deny them human rights. How does one human being do that to another human being?

 

I would put  all of it whether in America or Australia or any other country to a feeling of superiority and arrogance as well as intolerance and downright racism. As a people, we owe it to the descendants of  these agrieved peoples to somehow right the wrong. 

 

All of our countries share a certain amount of guilt by destroying  the culture of the original inhabitants ; relegating them to reservations or in some cases concentration camps and forcing a new culture on them that they never wanted or possibly needed.  No amount of money can ever make it right but treating these people with respect and equal rights might make it better.

Treat people with respect and respect their equal rights.

Shouldn't everyone just do that anyway without guilty feelings of what people did in the past being a reason?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

  You said "IMO, the political angle makes the "honest" look problematic.  " and I agree but that suggests that we might not "look" then, otherwise it is simply stating the obvious When wasn't a  "political angle"?

 

   The facts as supported by documentation  will determine the honesty of the report.  

 

I haven't said anything about not "looking" at the past, which was the position falsely attributed. Same goes for the "agree" bit - if you "agree" with yourself, or with a straw-man you set up - that neither interesting nor "honest". Thanks for making the point clearer, though. As for this being "obvious" - obviously not so obvious, as you keep insisting on ignoring the issue. The fact that there  is a problem with the argument you presented doesn't imply it needs to be disregarded. Rather, some caution ought to be applied when trying to follow the reasoning.

 

Historical events are often a matter of interpretation and context. What facts are included in historical analysis is also dependent on outlook and agenda. What happens if sometime down the line another researcher comes up with other facts?

 

Comes down to the same thing, which you keep dodging - who decides?

 

 

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Treat people with respect and respect their equal rights.

Shouldn't everyone just do that anyway without guilty feelings of what people did in the past being a reason?

Of course everyone should always be treated with respect and equality.  I am not stating that everyone today needs to feel guilty about what may have happened centuries ago in their countries.

 

My point is that  citizens today need to understand their countries history and ask themselves why such things happened before and why the descendants of subjugated people's may feel bitter and oppressed and vow never to allow such a thing to ever happen again.

[Tchooptip]

  20 hours ago, Tchooptip said:

"Not so sure as I as a Dutch guy feel not responsible for what others have done in  the past"

 

I never said that, for first I am no Dutchman,  but I answered to this sentence from robblock!

 

 

 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It is attributed to Socrates.

 You are correct in this , but it is attributed to Socrates by Plato in his book or  essay   "Apology"

whether Socrates said it or even existed is argued by historians.

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Refering to examination of one’s own life, not the examination of the life of others

 Indeed it was in Plato's Apology , IMO one's history contributes to One's life and  if one wants to understand one's self one needs to understand one's history.,and as such IMO is apropos.

[Bluespunk]

“And in "Elbow Room" the cast sings the glories of westward expansion in the United States, which involved the murder of native peoples and the violent conquest of half of Mexico. Among the lines in the song is one that intones, "There were plenty of fights / To win land right / But the West was meant to be / It was our Manifest Destiny?" Let it suffice to say that happily belting out a tune in which one merrily praises genocide is always easier for those whose ancestors weren't on the receiving end of the deal.”

Tim Wise, White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

I haven't said anything about not "looking" at the past, which was the position falsely attributed.

 Indeed you have not and I did not mean to imply that you have , that is why I asked the question  that just though some might exploit history for their own political goals (an assertion I agree with and said so)   " do you mean we should not examine  history?  a question you did not answer.   So IMO it is you who is setting up strowman arguments deflecting from answering  the above question.

 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Comes down to the same thing, which you keep dodging - who decides?

I am not dogging, it in fact I answered it in post # 30 where I said "The facts as supported by documentation  will determine the honesty of the report.   " which is ofcourse what the academics in the OP are trying to document, I am sure if someone disagrees with the findings , someone can debunk such findings with opposing documentation. 

So it is not a "who" that decides but rather a what.

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

“And in "Elbow Room" the cast sings the glories of westward expansion in the United States, which involved the murder of native peoples and the violent conquest of half of Mexico. Among the lines in the song is one that intones, "There were plenty of fights / To win land right / But the West was meant to be / It was our Manifest Destiny?" Let it suffice to say that happily belting out a tune in which one merrily praises genocide is always easier for those whose ancestors weren't on the receiving end of the deal.”

Tim Wise, White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son

Unfortunately, some don't realise that by not condemning such behaviour, one places one's self in the danger of finding one's self in the other side of the stick should fortunes be reversed.