Another new tax on wine?

[jenny2017]

Thank Mr. P for his glorified ways to make money for his toy soldiers. 

[Henryford]

I am surprised if they sell any wine now but you still see the shelves at places like Villa Market stuffed with hundreds of bottles of wine at 800-1500 baht. How pays that? I certainly have stopped buying wine. 

[vogie]

On 8/7/2018 at 9:56 AM, wgdanson said:

Totally correct, been doing it for years. Bring some grape juice concentrates and wine yeasts back with you next time, mix with 3 or 4 litres Tipco or Mallee red grape juice, 500gms sugar, packet of yeast. Two weeks later.....hey presto, Mont Claire can go.

No need for grape juice, Thailand has many seasonal fruit.

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

No need for grape juice, Thailand has many seasonal fruit.

A lot more hassle, and possibiliy of bad results. But thanks.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

A lot more hassle, and possibiliy of bad results. But thanks.

The camden tablet is your friend. ???

[wgdanson]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

The camden tablet is your friend. ???

Before or after adding the yeast?

 

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Before or after adding the yeast?

 

24hrs prior or it will kill the yeast. 

[Psychic]

Was just in Makro.

 

Looks like the 3L boxes of Mont Claire have dropped 100 baht...1030 now.

 

Still no one buying them. Since the price increase I haven't seen one move.

 

As they approach their due date on the boxes, I guess real panic will set in.

 

Sooner or later the manufacturers will go to the government and say, we're losing money and you're losing money (unless they truly did want to discourage drinking rather than just getting more taxes).

 

The 5L bottles of Italian red we used to buy at 735B reappeared at 1630.

 

So far I figure we have saved about 7350B and at this price the savings continue every week.

 

?

[janclaes47]

Just now, Psychic said:

Was just in Makro.

 

Looks like the 3L boxes of Mont Claire have dropped 100 baht...1030 now.

Yes I posted that last week also, since I have noticed that price drop is everywhere.

 

I think the other imported fruit wines have also dropped in price, so clearly someone is aware of the hole in their foot.

[mogandave]

It’s working!!!!

Keep the pressure on the greedy sods!!!

[ukrules]

56 minutes ago, mogandave said:

It’s working!!!!

Keep the pressure on the greedy sods!!!

The wholesalers / retailers might have trimmed their greed a little but short of the government reversing the duty changes nothing will happen.

 

It's now being treated as real wine.

[bankruatsteve]

6 minutes ago, ukrules said:

The wholesalers / retailers might have trimmed their greed a little but short of the government reversing the duty changes nothing will happen.

 

It's now being treated as real wine.

By "it's" are you referring to the box wines?  If so, I had no idea it wasn't thought of as "real wine" previously.  Whatever.  Boycott any wine in Thailand until they realize they can't f-ck with farangs like that. 

[xylophone]

12 minutes ago, ukrules said:

It's now being treated as real wine.

Well it is "fruit wine" at least.

[ukrules]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

By "it's" are you referring to the box wines?  If so, I had no idea it wasn't thought of as "real wine" previously.  Whatever.  Boycott any wine in Thailand until they realize they can't f-ck with farangs like that. 

Mainly the boxes but what they calll 'fruit wine' is available in bottles as well but mainly boxes.

 

It used to be taxed differently to real wine, now it's taxed as if it was real wine. It's not real wine!

[bankruatsteve]

23 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Mainly the boxes but what they calll 'fruit wine' is available in bottles as well but mainly boxes.

 

It used to be taxed differently to real wine, now it's taxed as if it was real wine. It's not real wine!

Uhm, a grape is a fruit.  Most wine sold commercially are from grapes - including the box wines.  Other fruits can be made to wine but it is just ridiculous to say they exclusively become the box wines.  I don't want to get started on this again so let's just leave it there, OK?

[mogandave]

Uhm, a grape is a fruit.  Most wine sold commercially are from grapes - including the box wines.  Other fruits can be made to wine but it is just ridiculous to say they exclusively become the box wines.  I don't want to get started on this again so let's just leave it there, OK?

If you didn’t want to get started on it again, why’d you bring it up?

Real wine is made from fermented fruit.

“Fruit” wine is alcohol mixed with water and fruit flavors and or juice.

[morrobay]

14 hours ago, mogandave said:

If you didn’t want to get started on it again, why’d you bring it up?

Real wine is made from fermented fruit.

“Fruit” wine is alcohol mixed with water and fruit flavors and or juice.

No the fruit wine here is red wine shipped in in bulk container e.g. from Italy, South Africa and then mixed with some kind of fermented fruit juice and bottled. 

[mogandave]

No the fruit wine here is red wine shipped in in bulk container e.g. from Italy, South Africa and then mixed with some kind of fermented fruit juice and bottled. 

I didn’t know Italy was in South Africa...

(just kidding)

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, mogandave said:

Real wine is made from fermented fruit.

“Fruit” wine is alcohol mixed with water and fruit flavors and or juice

 

3 hours ago, morrobay said:

No the fruit wine here is red wine shipped in in bulk container e.g. from Italy, South Africa and then mixed with some kind of fermented fruit juice and bottled.

Almost right.........

 

If a wine is made from anything other than grapes, it has to be called fruit wine and only wine made from grapes can be called wine and this is now internationally accepted and adhered to. The old argument that a grape is a fruit does not hold true as far as international standards are concerned in the wine industry.

 

Many paragraphs on this on the Montclair thread.

 

The fruit wine here comes from several sources: –

– Imported as bulk juice by the likes of Siam winery from Australia, South Africa, Chile and so on and mixed with fruit juice or hibiscus and fermented and bottled/boxed here.

 

– Imported from Australia, South Africa, France, Italy, etc as already mixed with fruit juice and fermented and comes in boxes/casks and bottles (such as Castle Creek, Gossips, Bodegas Valley and so on).

 

If a wine has anything other than grapes in it, it has to be labelled "fruit wine" although the likes of Siam winery have tried to make it as inconspicuous as possible.

[ukrules]

6 hours ago, xylophone said:

 

Almost right.........

 

If a wine is made from anything other than grapes, it has to be called fruit wine and only wine made from grapes can be called wine and this is now internationally accepted and adhered to. The old argument that a grape is a fruit does not hold true as far as international standards are concerned in the wine industry. 

 

Many paragraphs on this on the Montclair thread.

 

The fruit wine here comes from several sources: –

– Imported as bulk juice by the likes of Siam winery from Australia, South Africa, Chile and so on and mixed with fruit juice or hibiscus and fermented and bottled/boxed here.

 

– Imported from Australia, South Africa, France, Italy, etc as already mixed with fruit juice and fermented and comes in boxes/casks and bottles (such as Castle Creek, Gossips, Bodegas Valley and so on).

 

If a wine has anything other than grapes in it, it has to be labelled "fruit wine" although the likes of Siam winery have tried to make it as inconspicuous as possible.

 

If it's fermented in Thailand then doesn't this make it a domestic wine ?

 

If so, then why the price increases ?

[vogie]

This article posted in 2014 from the "Big Chill" does answer some of the questions.

 

"According to several importers, fruit wine sold in Thailand is a mixture of grape juice comprising one or more varietals, and juice that’s made from a fruit (often mulberry). There is confusion, however, about the ratio of this mix. Some say it can be as much as 95% grape juice, while others say it is supposed to contain no less than 80% pure grape juice, the rest being fruit concentrate."

 

http://www.thebigchilli.com/news/fruit-wine-is-it-for-real

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

If it's fermented in Thailand then doesn't this make it a domestic wine ?

 

If so, then why the price increases ?

You make a very good point and it's something I've never fully understood, although GrantSmith, a regular poster on the Montclair wine thread, who is involved in the wine industry, would be able to explain it a lot better than I can.

 

As far as I can make out, the tax on wine sold here is very much centred around the retail price, i.e. that which it is sold for rather than the price of its import. If grape juice is imported in bulk, it still has a duty to pay as an import, then once the likes of Siam winery get hold of it and turn it into "wine" with the addition of fruit juice or the like, then it has a retail price which attracts a tax.

 

Not only that, another aspect of the tax situation is the alcohol content of the retail product with the recent increase going from 100 baht per litre of pure alcohol to 1000 baht per litre of pure alcohol (equivalent).

 

That may be why there are plastic containers/boxes of Montclair (and others) "wine" in the shops which show a lower alcohol content than they used to, with some of them around 10% alcohol now.

 

I believe I do know my wine, having collected it for 45 years or more, however as regards the tax situation, I'm a novice.

 

And for the record I have been in touch with a couple of Australian winemakers to try and ascertain exactly how their "fruit wine" products are "constructed" and if they ship bulk juice to Thailand, but have received no answer, and the same has happened with my enquiries to Siam winery, although I did find out that the hibiscus "flower" is used in the fermentation and production of their product (Montclair).

[mogandave]

Does imported fruit juice also have a duty sticker on it?

[bankruatsteve]

Being totally confused about what you all are calling "fruit wine", I did some (not much) research and find that Thailand has re-defined the term "fruit wine" to indicate a wine that is fermented and bottled/boxed here but using a base of 80-95% imported grape juice then combined with mulberries or such.  Wikipedia defines "fruit wine" the same as I have always thought of it.  So, if I'm getting this right, Thailand wineries came up with "fruit wine" originally to avoid the ridiculous import tax on "normal" wine and keep the price low(er).  But now the greedy gov is denying that loophole.  Am I getting this right?

 

Whatever.  Boycott all wine until they give this up and when they realize that some revenue is better than none at all.

 

[mogandave]

 
Whatever.  Boycott all wine until they give this up and when they realize that some revenue is better than none at all.
 

Yes, boycott and stop the greed!!!

[xylophone]

18 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Being totally confused about what you all are calling "fruit wine", I did some (not much) research and find that Thailand has re-defined the term "fruit wine" to indicate a wine that is fermented and bottled/boxed here but using a base of 80-95% imported grape juice then combined with mulberries or such.  Wikipedia defines "fruit wine" the same as I have always thought of it.  So, if I'm getting this right, Thailand wineries came up with "fruit wine" originally to avoid the ridiculous import tax on "normal" wine and keep the price low(er).  But now the greedy gov is denying that loophole.  Am I getting this right?

 

Whatever.  Boycott all wine until they give this up and when they realize that some revenue is better than none at all.

 

Well to be fair, the whole issue here is very confusing, not only because of the taxation, but because of why the mixing of grapes and fruit have constituted a separate market.

 

I think it's relevant here to suggest that whatever Thailand has done to redefine the term "fruit wine" that it bears no relevance to what the rest of the world considers it to be and I will quote a couple of examples for you: –

 

1) Definition of fruit wine:

 a wine fermented from fruit other than grapes

 

2) Wikipedia……………

Fruit wines are fermented alcoholic beverages made from a variety of base ingredients (other than grapes); they may also have additional flavors taken from fruits, flowers, and herbs.

 

Hibiscus or Roselle juice in Thai is…….กระเจี๊ยบแดง krajiab daeng, The red calyces of the plant are increasingly exported to the United States and Europe, particularly Germany, where they are used as food colourings.

 

(Hibiscus/Roselle is what Siam mix with their juice to give it body and to attract a lower tax.......or it used to!)

 

3) Within the European Union, the term "wine" in English and in translation is reserved exclusively for the fermented juice of grapes.

 

Within the United States, wine may include the fermented juice of any fruit or agricultural product, provided that it is between 7% and 24%alcohol by volume and intended for non-industrial use. With the exceptions of cider, perry, and sake, such non-grape wines are to label themselves by the word "wine" qualified by a truthful description of the originating product: "honey wine", "dandelion wine", (blended) "fruit wine", etc.

 

4).“As a body of reference in the area of vine and wine the OIV develops definitions and descriptions of the vitivinicultural products in order to contribute to international legal harmonization and to improve the development and marketing of vitivinicultural products.

The definitions of vitivinicultural products are included in the first part of the International Code of Oenological Practices.

 

So as you can see, the move worldwide is to ensure that the word wine is only used for the product which is produced from grapes.

 

If I reproduced for you a copy of the old tax system here on alcohol/wine, you would be amazed, because it is so convoluted as to be ridiculous. Having said that the new laws, whatever they are, don't seem to be a lot better!

 

Personally I would like to see tax on products such as wine reduced, and I am finding some cheaper Chilean wines out there as well as some Aussie wines and I think if the alcohol content of these is not excessive and the retail price is low, then the tax applied is not as punitive as once thought.

 

As I said previously, it is quite possible that the reason the new boxes of wines are appearing on the shelves with alcohol contents of 10%, writ large, is another way to try and lower the end price by paying less tax.

 

It would help everyone if this whole area was simplified and there would be no need to import juice/wines with fruit juice added, wines bottled in Vietnam using Australian fruit and then resold in Thailand, wines originating from France and South Africa trying all sorts of things to get a cheaper price on the shelves.......... yes, all of this is currently going on.

 

[xylophone]

51 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Does imported fruit juice also have a duty sticker on it?

No I don't believe it does and that probably goes a long way to answering the question by a previous poster, ukrules, because if it came in as fruit juice, and is fermented and added to by Siam winery, for example, then it gets the orange sticker for being produced in Thailand.

 

Whereas if it was imported as a form of wine, some tax would have to be paid on it and it would have a blue sticker. However if it comes in as a product which is labelled "fruit wine" then it attracts a lower tax of some description, although still has a blue label because it is not produced in Thailand.

 

That's as far as my understanding goes but as I've said in a previous post, the whole area is a mess.

[mogandave]

No I don't believe it does and that probably goes a long way to answering the question by a previous poster, ukrules, because if it came in as fruit juice, and is fermented and added to by Siam winery, for example, then it gets the orange sticker for being produced in Thailand.
 
Whereas if it was imported as a form of wine, some tax would have to be paid on it and it would have a blue sticker. However if it comes in as a product which is labelled "fruit wine" then it attracts a lower tax of some description, although still has a blue label because it is not produced in Thailand.
 
That's as far as my understanding goes but as I've said in a previous post, the whole area is a mess.

It seems I have seen non alcoholic fruit juice/ drinks with duty seals on the necks...

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

It seems I have seen non alcoholic fruit juice/ drinks with duty seals on the necks...

 

Pass!!!!!!!! But found this...………..not complicated. Yeah right!

 

This benefit to Australian wine exporters multiplies after the application of Thailand’s heavy and complex alcohol excise and VAT tax regime – to where Australian wines (over 1,000 baht) can be around 65 per cent cheaper than wines from other countries (the exception Chile and New Zealand) when the same mark-up is applied. (Source: Austrade calculations)

In addition to import tariffs, imported wines are subject to other duties, fees and taxes:

• Surcharge / Special duty (US$ 10 per import lot)
• Customs Fee US$ 50
• Alcohol Excise tax: the rate is  Baht 1,500 per litre of alcoholic content for a wine bottle not exceeding  Baht 1,000 (retail). Wine priced higher than  Baht 1,000 (at retail) will be taxed at 10 per cent of its price and  Baht 1,500 per liter of alcoholic content.
• Municipal / interior tax: 10 per cent
• Health support project: 2 per cent, based on CIF/FOB value
• Public broadcasting subsidy: 2 per cent
• from January 2018 – Elderly foundation tax: 1.5 per cent
• Value added tax (VAT): 7 per cent, based on retail price

Edited August 20, 2018 by xylophone

[mogandave]

It looks like the excise tax is the strongest, and domestic wine would have to pay that.

Also,the 1,500 per liter of alcoholic content (which is strong!) would account for the reduced alcoholic content..