UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

Tell that to Sir Ivan Rogers, who was fired from the civil service for telling the government Brexit could not be done in 2 years 

As always Teebee you never let the truth stand in the way of a good argument.

 

Sir Ivan Rogers quits civil service four days after leaving EU envoy role

Former ambassador to EU leaves with immediate effect and FCO says decision was entirely his...………………………….The Guardian

[aright]

34 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right legislation proposed by and developed by civser or hired consultants and signed off by the relevant minister

 

re independence, you quote from a speech not from reality

 

it would be impossible to run a country like UK with an independent civser

civser works for the gov and pretty much does what the gov tells them to do

 

now, with a Tory gov,

how on earth could Tory implement their manifesto or political program with an independent civser?

 

having a civser that is not independent is one of the more important elements that makes UK a democracy

the civser is pretty much by far the most important tool any government in UK has in order to realise its policies and manifesto

it would not work if civser was independent

with an independent civser you could just do away with political parties and GEs.

 

civser is not independent but a well organized prostitute-ring that does what the minister request them do, for money.

it happens in several countries, I would think also in the UK, that occasionally the minister requests things

that are questionable moral wise and legal wise - and you will see some high level civser quit his job

rather than being forced to do it against his moral and ethical compasses.

 

 

 

Any links to your conjecture?

Try this one

• ‘integrity’ is putting the obligations of public service above your own personal interests
• ‘honesty’ is being truthful and open
• ‘objectivity’ is basing your advice and decisions on rigorous analysis of the evidence
• ‘impartiality’ is acting solely according to the merits of the case and serving equally well governments of different political persuasions

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-code/the-civil-service-code

Edited October 15, 2018 by aright

[Bluespunk]

3 hours ago, aright said:

More importantly the Civil Service  neither proposes or enacts legislation and is politically impartial and independent of government so what is your point? 

I am saying bureaucracies are not elected. The decision making bodies of the eu are such bureaucracies. They are controlled by the govt reps of member states. 

 

Or even their reps in eu parliament...

 

And lets not forget the uk opted out of a number of laws/policies/decisions of such decision making bodies. 

 

Democracy alive and well in the eu. 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Bluespunk

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Any links to your conjecture?

Try this one

• ‘integrity’ is putting the obligations of public service above your own personal interests
• ‘honesty’ is being truthful and open
• ‘objectivity’ is basing your advice and decisions on rigorous analysis of the evidence
• ‘impartiality’ is acting solely according to the merits of the case and serving equally well governments of different political persuasions

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-code/the-civil-service-code

conjecture?

the whole civser concept is designed for not being independent, the civser is the gov's tool

for implementing its manifesto "approved" by GE

 

integrity-honesty-objectivity, yes -most of the time - as long  as it suits the minister

impartial re different cabinets - yes, but not so  re the public

 

so well organized prost-ring is not so bad, they are there to do what they are told to do -  for  money

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[tebee]

So as we move inexorably towards no deal, the breakup of the UK begins. Brexit will break Britain.

 

 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/15/sinn-fein-we-will-demand-referendum-on-northern-lreland-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, aright said:

More importantly the Civil Service  neither proposes or enacts legislation and is politically impartial and independent of government so what is your point? 

I have to assume that is supposed to be a joke.

[Guest]

It's indeed time to prepare for no-deal brexit. Fortunately EU has been doing that and the effects, while being major, are not disastrous for EU. 

 

If the rumours are true that UK is turning one of it's motorways to become a car park, installing portable toilets etc. then I guess UK is preparing as well.

 

Funny how in this video a brexiteer tries to shift the blame of UK's decision to EU. Nope, deals doesn't work in that way.

 

 

[Grouse]

I take it none of you watched the proceedings in parliament yesterday?

 

May defending the unwanted chequers deal, Tory gouls pushing for crash out, Labour openly going for a public referendum. Great show of democracy in action or inaction 

 

I think May will not get any deal through and a people's vote will be called. Deadline will be extended. EU will alter free movement regulations. UK will remain. Everyone lives happily ever after....

[aright]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I have to assume that is supposed to be a joke.

Depends if you feel gov.uk is a joke.

• serve the government², whatever its political persuasion, to the best of your ability in a way which maintains political impartiality and is in line with the requirements of this code, no matter what your own political beliefs are
• act in a way which deserves and retains the confidence of ministers, while at the same time ensuring that you will be able to establish the same relationship with those whom you may be required to serve in some future government
• comply with any restrictions that have been laid down on your political activities

You must not:

• act in a way that is determined by party political considerations, or use official resources for party political purposes
• allow your personal political views to determine any advice you give or your actions.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-code/the-civil-service-code

 

also if you feel Institute for Government is a joke

The top 10 countries on the civil service effectiveness are:

1. Canada
2. New Zealand
3. Australia
4. United Kingdom
5. Finland
6. Sweden
7. Estonia
8. Norway
9. Korea (Republic of)
10. United States of America

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-index-ranks-best-performing-civil-services-world

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Depends if you feel gov.uk is a joke.

• serve the government², whatever its political persuasion, to the best of your ability in a way which maintains political impartiality and is in line with the requirements of this code, no matter what your own political beliefs are
• act in a way which deserves and retains the confidence of ministers, while at the same time ensuring that you will be able to establish the same relationship with those whom you may be required to serve in some future government
• comply with any restrictions that have been laid down on your political activities

You must not:

• act in a way that is determined by party political considerations, or use official resources for party political purposes
• allow your personal political views to determine any advice you give or your actions.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-code/the-civil-service-code

 

also if you feel Institute for Government is a joke

The top 10 countries on the civil service effectiveness are:

1. Canada
2. New Zealand
3. Australia
4. United Kingdom
5. Finland
6. Sweden
7. Estonia
8. Norway
9. Korea (Republic of)
10. United States of America

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-index-ranks-best-performing-civil-services-world

 

what you write here is ok,

but this is very different from what you wrote earlier

 

now, on top of the points, you made here,

project some contentious issues and you will quickly see that

the civser are well paid (in many countries) prostitutes, and that is OK, that is what they are supposed to be

 

brexit is a good example, contentious, comprehensive (constitutional, foreign policy, legal issues, national politics, trade, Scotland, NI)

here is no room for independent professionalism re interpreting relevant stipulations and base advice or

interaction with the public on that. especially when it comes to law-bending.

the pm or the relevant minister will understand the law for you and tell you how it is to be interpreted, in DETAIL,

depart from that and you are on the dole.

 

if your integrity tells you that this ain't right, you quit

 

 

 

 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

This Brexit malarkey is pretty simple really isn’t it. There’s:

 

Brexit – UK control of its trade policy and borders; Tusk-Barnier and Johnson & co are still offering this, but a no deal will get us there too.

Remain - voted down 2 years ago, and not returning

Brino – everything else and the worst of both worlds.

[melvinmelvin]

55 minutes ago, oilinki said:

It's indeed time to prepare for no-deal brexit. Fortunately EU has been doing that and the effects, while being major, are not disastrous for EU. 

 

If the rumours are true that UK is turning one of it's motorways to become a car park, installing portable toilets etc. then I guess UK is preparing as well.

 

Funny how in this video a brexiteer tries to shift the blame of UK's decision to EU. Nope, deals doesn't work in that way.

 

 

 

ta,

interesting video

 

[evadgib]

Gary Linekar weighed in in favour of a peoples vote on twitter a few day ago and was blown out of the water by Pat Condell who pointed our that he might have lifted the world cup in 1990 if Pearse and Waddle had been allowed 'peoples penalties' ????

Edited October 16, 2018 by evadgib

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

So as we move inexorably towards no deal, the breakup of the UK begins. Brexit will break Britain.

 

 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/15/sinn-fein-we-will-demand-referendum-on-northern-lreland-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

 

would such a Sinn Fein demand be likely to get majority in NI?

 

[melvinmelvin]

33 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

ta,

interesting video

 

 

especially the interview with the Irish bloke towards the end was interesting, for me

his views on border controls put some issues into perspective

 

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

would such a Sinn Fein demand be likely to get majority in NI?

 

Yes there have been several polls showing a majority for reunification in case of brexit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45391529 for one, another was mentioned here about 10 pages back 

 

Interestingly the GFA. allows for a referendum on Irish unity if “at any time” it appears likely to the British Secretary of State “that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.” The blueprint is already in place. All it now needs now are the right conditions to be met.

[tebee]

47 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

This Brexit malarkey is pretty simple really isn’t it. There’s:

 

Brexit – UK control of its trade policy and borders; Tusk-Barnier and Johnson & co are still offering this, but a no deal will get us there too.

Remain - voted down 2 years ago, and not returning

Brino – everything else and the worst of both worlds.

Ah - life is so simple for breiters - none of the nuances, consequences and complications of the real world.

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes there have been several polls showing a majority for reunification in case of brexit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45391529 for one, another was mentioned here about 10 pages back 

 

Interestingly the GFA. allows for a referendum on Irish unity if “at any time” it appears likely to the British Secretary of State “that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.” The blueprint is already in place. All it now needs now are the right conditions to be met.

1,199 people took part in the poll out of a population of 1.871 million and that didn;t include any of the Republic of Ireland/Population of 

4,803,748 million people there would public sector job losses in the North and Higher Taxes to be paid from the South

The only way the Republic of Ireland population would vote for reunification if the other EU 26 members agreed to spend billions and billions of euros on a United Ireland  A double whammy for the Finnish population refusing to pay extra for Brexit then asked to pay extra for a United Ireland

[Guest]

It's funny how one Boris Johnsson's eagerness to become PM by playing devil's advocate on EU referendum and one Cameron's arrogance lead to breakup of a nation of 60 million people. 

 

Currently the little Englanders feel quite nationalistic and don't care the United Kingdom breakup, as long as they get their hard brexit. 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, oilinki said:

It's funny how one Boris Johnsson's eagerness to become PM by playing devil's advocate on EU referendum and one Cameron's arrogance lead to breakup of a nation of 60 million people. 

 

Currently the little Englanders feel quite nationalistic and don't care the United Kingdom breakup, as long as they get their hard brexit. 

 

 

 

 

well,

Scotland possibly leaving UK and NI possibly leaving UK 

are not exactly fresh issues that surfaced with Brexit. The issues have been around for years.

 

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

1,199 people took part in the poll out of a population of 1.871 million and that didn;t include any of the Republic of Ireland/Population of 

4,803,748 million people there would public sector job losses in the North and Higher Taxes to be paid from the South

The only way the Republic of Ireland population would vote for reunification if the other EU 26 members agreed to spend billions and billions of euros on a United Ireland  A double whammy for the Finnish population refusing to pay extra for Brexit then asked to pay extra for a United Ireland

Any referendum would only  only be voted on by NI people - so it was right to only poll them.

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

well,

Scotland possibly leaving UK and NI possibly leaving UK 

are not exactly fresh issues that surfaced with Brexit. The issues have been around for years.

 

 

At every turn Brexit causes more problems than it solves, but it's adherents have a religious fervor and insist it must be enacted, for only then can the UK obtain enlightenment. 

[My Thai Life]

45 minutes ago, tebee said:

Ah - life is so simple for breiters - none of the nuances, consequences and complications of the real world.

Actually I'm not a Brexiter. I'm just someone who is happy to accept the democratic result of the referendum. I would have supported remain too.

 

By the way, your insults seem to be increasing along with your evident desperation.

[My Thai Life]

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Democracy alive and well in the eu. 

Had you bothered to follow up on my post about Juncker's irregular and clandestine promotion of his friend Selmayr, you would have discovered that the EU decided to ignore the Ombudsman's highly critical report. Some more juicy quotes from your hero Juncker, outlining his approach to transparency and democracy. 

 

On the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

On the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

[Guest]

It's time to brush up knowledge who is Jeremy Corbyn.

 

 

[Bluespunk]

20 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Had you bothered to follow up on my post about Juncker's irregular and clandestine promotion of his friend Selmayr, you would have discovered that the EU decided to ignore the Ombudsman's highly critical report. Some more juicy quotes from your hero Juncker, outlining his approach to transparency and democracy. 

 

On the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

On the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

That line you quote is taken out of context.

 

Quote whole post and get back to me...

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

That line you quote is taken out of context.

 

Quote whole post and get back to me...

The broad context was exactly the same, and you know it. The context being your belief that the EU is democratic. Yes, the EU does have aspects of democratic functioning, obviously, how could it not have. It also has a number of significant failings in that area. Ask Greece and Italy for starters, never mind your hero Juncker.

 

Given your refusal to accept democratic processes in the UK when you don't like them, you're not well placed to present yourself as a champion of democracy.

 

Your 1 line replies (or an extremely rare 2 lines in the reply that I've quoted) are also clear evidence that you  have nothing to say.

[melvinmelvin]

22 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The broad context was exactly the same, and you know it. The context being your belief that the EU is democratic. Yes, the EU does have aspects of democratic functioning, obviously, how could it not have. It also has a number of significant failings in that area. Ask Greece and Italy for starters, never mind your hero Juncker.

 

Given your refusal to accept democratic processes in the UK when you don't like them, you're not well placed to present yourself as a champion of democracy.

 

Your 1 line replies (or an extremely rare 2 lines in the reply that I've quoted) are also clear evidence that you  have nothing to say.

 

short and sweet - to the point - keep the waffle away

(motto of my former prof in marine law/insurance)

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

This Brexit malarkey is pretty simple really isn’t it. There’s:

 

Brexit – UK control of its trade policy and borders; Tusk-Barnier and Johnson & co are still offering this, but a no deal will get us there too.

Remain - voted down 2 years ago, and not returning

Brino – everything else and the worst of both worlds.

Crap pie or you don't eat!

 

The Tusk- Barnier deal is the only viable option, but it is not do-able because it poses a constitutional crisis.  There must also be question marks over this Government's competence to deliver.

 

Nobody voted for Groundhog day.  We're already over-running. 

 

Given nothing else matches the promised, but imaginary, deal offered by Leave, then we really ought to be considering damage limitation options.

 

That would be a soft Brexit type option, which is popular with the electorate, Scotland , and N.Ireland, and is the only safe dock at present.  The Government won't consider that.

 

Logically, we have a GE I guess.  The Government has failed to deliver- in fact- it can't deliver because it has no majority with which to deliver. 

 

Ordinarily, I would say let the Government get on with what it wants to do. But in fact, that is not an option, is it?

Edited October 16, 2018 by mommysboy

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

 I'm just someone who is happy to accept the democratic result of the referendum.

What “result of the referendum”? There is no one result because everyone had a different understanding of what he is voting for in case of Brexit. You’re not accepting any referendum result but just your own interpretation of it.