UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[adammike]

7 hours ago, oilinki said:

Sensible military budget is Required when you have a hostile country like Russia as your neighbour. 

 

That's why actually want my country, Finland, to have our own nuclear arsenal. That way we don't have to spend money to traditional warfare. We could rely on our nuclear weapons, which would be the ultimate detarrance, like all the other nuclear powers have already. 

 

Nobody goes against a nuclear power. We all know that. We all know that a war between two nuclear powers leads to a wipeout of all humans. That's not a good idea.

 

Therefore my country, to make sure that none can challenge it's land, should really get few hundred hydrogen bombs. We are technologically advanced enough to do just that.

 

So, does any country want to complain what we want to do? Does any country, which already have nuclear bombs, want to be against these plans?

Putin said that nuclear war would not be a problem as a world without Russia world be a terrible world.or words to that effect.

Edited November 13, 2018 by adammike
Spelling

[adammike]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

I consider our number 1 enemy to be the E.U. and the quicker we are independent of this corrupt and undemocratic so called Union all the better.And we certainly do not need a E.U army.

And why are the remoaners ( not you as you are not British) not asking themselves, why have the E.U supporters continually denied the intention to create such an Army. And most mportant of all, what else have they planned for the future of this so called Union.

In or out of the EU you will still need allies and I will reminder you that you are still European.The British and French forces have been working very well together for some years for their mutual benefit.Let's hope talk like that means you are in a minority or the EU would be justified in hanging the UK out to dry. 

[My Thai Life]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

A compromise deal serves no one in my opinion. 

Jeremy Corbyn’s position is a difficult one: he is a natural leaver whose policies for state intervention would be resisted or even prevented by the EU.

 

Yet the EU itself is based upon interventionism. An obvious example is the GAP, a huge subsidy programme consuming 40% of the EU budget for less than 2% of its GDP. The Euro itself has proven to be another, with all sorts of consequences relating to nation-state sovereignty. All of this fits the irreversible ever-closer union by stealth at the heart of the EU project, as advocated by Juncker and many others, and quoted here numerous times.

 

This doesn’t mean I’m against supra-national bodies as such, but I do feel that the EU is not evolving in the right direction; I feel it’s evolving in a potentially very dangerous direction, economically and politically.

 

The EU, via its precursors, was nominally based on the political idea of preventing future Franco-German wars, and the economic goals of supporting French farmers and German industry. Does anyone still think France and Germany need the EU to prevent mutual war? Is there any real need for ongoing union? A close alignment of independent nation-states suits the zeitgeist much better imvho.

 

Obviously you’re somewhere on the left, presumably in the company of Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, Varoufakis and Chomsky, all of whom have expressed admiration for each other. An interesting bunch, with interesting ideas, would they ever be in a position to try their ideas out I wonder?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

 

5 hours ago, oilinki said:

No, it's Russia. Plain and simple. There is no other potential enemy for Europe than Russia. Do you really wish to say otherwise? I guess you do, but that means only one thing. 

 

How Aaron Banks funneled Russian money to support leave.eu campaign. Even the leavers, who are patriotic, should by now really doubt what UKIP people like Banks and Nigel Farage did, should really think what their motives were.

 

I guess we all still remember how Farage went to see the Ruskie spy at the Ecuadorian embassy. Don't we?

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

And there we have it. Russia under Putin is an ally of the Conspiracy Theory nuts

'It was these moronic fruckers, who kept on saying how the EU was to be blamed for everything what happened in the UK'

'Yes, It's actually perfectly ok to blame these UKIP leaders and their elderly followers for all the pain all parties in Europe has suffered ever since the Brexit vote. Yes, you folks are really to blame.'

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

YAWN! Peddling fake news yet again. And you have the audacity to accuse others of being trolls or conspiracy nuts! Indicative of how jaded and bitter you and far too many others clearly are about not getting your own way in 2016.

 

Oilinki's perspective is less relevant in this conversation as he isn't British and clearly understands very little of anything, let alone British political, social or economic affairs of the past 40 years or the effect the EU has had on them. So why he thinks he has any real legitimacy talking about them or has the cheek to proclaim on this forum 'which moronic fruckers,????, are to blame' for the issues in the EU caused by Brexit and for Brexit itself, I have no idea.

 

He and too many other misinformed posters on here - by misunderstanding the root causes of all this and dismissing those who voted Leave - are massively undermining and insulting many millions of people that they 1) clearly have no understanding of 2) have never met nor spoken with, and 3) probably share little common experience with.

 

To attack said masses like this from a position of total ignorance, I find pretty disgraceful.  Get your facts straight and make an effort to understand the situation a lot better than you do, before spewing vicious, totally misinformed and ignorant bull****. 

 

In any case, I thought you continental EU sycophants were supposedly 'ecstatic' that the UK is leaving anyhow?? ????

 

Other than hearsay, conjecture or self-serving drivel you guys haven't a leg to stand on, and I think you know it. 

 

My suggestion is - let's reserve this space for legitimate, intelligent debate based on fact as well as opinion, and of course the sharing of info. Not complete dross/troll fodder, such as that provided by OiL and SW among others. 

 

 

For example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46188790

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[SheungWan]

50 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

'It was these moronic fruckers, who kept on saying how the EU was to be blamed for everything what happened in the UK'

'Yes, It's actually perfectly ok to blame these UKIP leaders and their elderly followers for all the pain all parties in Europe has suffered ever since the Brexit vote. Yes, you folks are really to blame.'

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

YAWN! Peddling fake news yet again. And you have the audacity to accuse others of being trolls or conspiracy nuts! Indicative of how jaded and bitter you and far too many others clearly are about not getting your own way in 2016.

Oilinki's perspective is less relevant in this conversation as he isn't British and clearly understands very little of anything, let alone British political, social or economic affairs of the past 40 years or the effect the EU has had on them. So why he thinks he has any real legitimacy talking about them or has the cheek to proclaim on this forum 'which moronic fruckers,????, are to blame' for the issues in the EU caused by Brexit and for Brexit itself, I have no idea.

He and too many other misinformed posters on here - by misunderstanding the root causes of all this and dismissing those who voted Leave - are massively undermining and insulting many millions of people that they 1) clearly have no understanding of 2) have never met nor spoken with, and 3) probably share little common experience with.

To attack said masses like this from a position of total ignorance, I find pretty disgraceful.  Get your facts straight and make an effort to understand the situation a lot better than you do, before spewing vicious, totally misinformed and ignorant bull****. 

In any case, I thought you continental EU sycophants were supposedly 'ecstatic' that the UK is leaving anyhow?? ????

Other than hearsay, conjecture or self-serving drivel you guys haven't a leg to stand on, and I think you know it. 

My suggestion is - let's reserve this space for legitimate, intelligent debate based on fact as well as opinion, and of course the sharing of info. Not complete dross/troll fodder, such as that provided by OiL and SW among others. 

For example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46188790

Looks like the Hard Brexiteering Conspiracy Theory Putin Fan-Club forum members are having a Bad Hair Day!

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

8 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Looks like the Hard Brexiteering Conspiracy Theory Putin Fan-Club forum members are having a Bad Hair Day!

Actually... I was just reflecting on how good my barnet looks this morning. ????

 

But thanks for confirming my above points, SW.

 

----

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/uk-says-brexit-deal-almost-within-touching-distance/2018/11/13/95678a32-e72e-11e8-8449-1ff263609a31_story.html?utm_term=.5da0eb0ab1ce

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-46157400/brexit-deal-will-see-us-cede-control-jo-johnson

Edited November 14, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

 

Interesting and 'provocative' admissions from JCJ. He's stating the facts of the matter, but he's sure to be less candid about the reasons for their occurrence. 

 

https://www.rt.com/news/443548-europe-g7-india-china/

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[melvinmelvin]

Is it today afternoon that TM will discuss the "deal" with her ministers?

 

 

[tebee]

Former Brexiteer Cabinet minister: "We are all toast aren't we. This is almost like the Titanic - she can't steer it and she is not going to let anyone else steer it. Normally rats leave a sinking ship - this lot have stayed on it."

Edited November 14, 2018 by tebee

[transam]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

Former Brexiteer Cabinet minister: "We are all toast aren't we. This is almost like the Titanic - she can't steer it and she is not going to let anyone else steer it. Normally rats leave a sinking ship - this lot have stayed on it."

Sounds like you run away from ploblems....????

[billd766]

11 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Shall we start by holding hands?

 

Don't forget to sing Kumbaya as well.

[kwilco]

14 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Facial stereotypes hilarious where did that come from.

 

anything that I’d not left far left or accepted by the elite ruling millionaire class is considered populous don’t let you men democratic if it’s popular. The EU is neither democratic or popular!

QED......gullibility coupled with low comprehension ability = fodder for fascism

[kwilco]

Flat earth theory and Brexit have got to be 2 of the most ridiculous lupus concepts ever dreamed up by man.....however no nation has yet been stupid enough to vote the world flat.....and Britain stands alone as the only one who thinks they can vote for Brexit.

 

If you need further evidence of how the rational world sees this concept....read this list of those losing, leaving......and leading businesses away.

 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-latest-list-of-brexit-casualties-is-a-sobering-reminder-of-what-lies-in-store-for-britain/13/11/?fbclid=IwAR2uwN5kUmTh3g9dDGVWw10RmxXZI0hty80NFCl2soIp1oogJ3AIycWDWTE

[mogandave]

Don't forget to sing Kumbaya as well.

I was going to add that but I wasn’t sure how to spell it...me being a moron and whatnot...

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I was going to add that but I wasn’t sure how to spell it...me being a moron and whatnot...

 

I couldn't remember either but my useful friend Google showed me the way.

[kwilco]

Quote

 

So how about it Rees Mogg?

 

 "Jacob Rees-Mogg, saying that this deal will make the UK “not a vassal state but a slave state”, when the words he was looking for were, “Sorry. This is my fault.” independant

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

So how about it Rees Mogg?

 

 "Jacob Rees-Mogg, saying that this deal will make the UK “not a vassal state but a slave state”, when the words he was looking for were, “Sorry. This is my fault.” independant

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

A "People's Vote" is looking more and more inevitable ????

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Jeremy Corbyn’s position is a difficult one: he is a natural leaver whose policies for state intervention would be resisted or even prevented by the EU.

 

Yet the EU itself is based upon interventionism. An obvious example is the GAP, a huge subsidy programme consuming 40% of the EU budget for less than 2% of its GDP. The Euro itself has proven to be another, with all sorts of consequences relating to nation-state sovereignty. All of this fits the irreversible ever-closer union by stealth at the heart of the EU project, as advocated by Juncker and many others, and quoted here numerous times.

 

This doesn’t mean I’m against supra-national bodies as such, but I do feel that the EU is not evolving in the right direction; I feel it’s evolving in a potentially very dangerous direction, economically and politically.

 

The EU, via its precursors, was nominally based on the political idea of preventing future Franco-German wars, and the economic goals of supporting French farmers and German industry. Does anyone still think France and Germany need the EU to prevent mutual war? Is there any real need for ongoing union? A close alignment of independent nation-states suits the zeitgeist much better imvho.

 

Obviously you’re somewhere on the left, presumably in the company of Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, Varoufakis and Chomsky, all of whom have expressed admiration for each other. An interesting bunch, with interesting ideas, would they ever be in a position to try their ideas out I wonder?

It's fair comment about the EU.  No, I really don't think any of the people mentioned will get the prize, because politics has lurched to the right mostly.  I would say that the challenges of the century make socialist policies inevitable, though they may be dressed in different garb. 

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, vogie said:

I am not trying anything, Scotland is a Nation, is it not? 

I appreciate it can be difficult the brexiteer mentality to grasp the simplest of facts in the appropriate context. 

To clarify, there have been 11 UK referendums - 3 national referendums, 3 Welsh referendums, 3 Scottish referendums and 2 referendums in Northern Ireland.

 

Of course I realise that your response to my original comment was nothing more than a pathetic attempt to ridicule my country of birth.

[mommysboy]

Just from the aspect of gaming the system: having N.Ireland in the single market/customs union would offer a terrific opportunity to exploit the EU free trade deal, wouldn't it?  I'm sure it will be raised as an issue though.

 

[sandyf]

On 11/13/2018 at 1:49 PM, mogandave said:

It used to be that when the people voted for something, it got pushed through.

Now, when when the people vote for something, if the ruling class doesn’t like it they sabotage it and hold the proponents up as fools and blame them for not getting it done.

Where on earth did that come from. There have only ever been 2 other national referendums and in both cases the people voted to keep things as they were, nothing to push through. Looks like a bit of paranoia coming to the fore.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I appreciate it can be difficult the brexiteer mentality to grasp the simplest of facts in the appropriate context. 

To clarify, there have been 11 UK referendums - 3 national referendums, 3 Welsh referendums, 3 Scottish referendums and 2 referendums in Northern Ireland.

 

Of course I realise that your response to my original comment was nothing more than a pathetic attempt to ridicule my country of birth.

Also I can appreciate how easy it for a remainer to insult another poster that doesn't agree with them, however I will not insult you.

 

Why and how would I ridicule Scotland, Scotland is one of my favourite countries, please tell me how I ridiculed your country of birth.

 

You may not appreciate how biased your posts come across to other posters.

 

However I will go to bed tonight and see if I can work out why you are so vehemently againgst some referendums and strongly embrace others, should I have an eureka moment in the middle of the night I will promptly report my findings. 

 

Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[mommysboy]

Where I have most sympathy with the so called hard Brexiteers is that UK's stance is an offer of a free trade deal no strings attached.  It was refused.  Ok, so be it.  But don't blame JRM, etc.

[sandyf]

Looks like sort of deal is on the table. The major players have already had their ear bent individually and the cabinet meeting should start in about 7 hours.

The devil is in the detail and we won't get that for a bit yet.

[sandyf]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why and how would I ridicule Scotland, Scotland is one of my favourite countries, please tell me how I ridiculed your country of birth.

 

My words - There was a stark glimpse of reality yesterday, about 70 world leaders at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and Theresa May in London.

Your response - Remind us where Nicola Sturgeon was?

 

My words - national referendums may well be confined to the history books.

Your response - When you say referendums may well be confined to the history books, does that include a referendum on Scottish Independence?

 

Out of context comments intended to ridicule. If you deny the intention to ridicule Scotland then it must be personal attacks, either way a bit pathetic.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

A "People's Vote" is looking more and more inevitable ????

We had a People’s vote in 2016. In fact it was the largest British vote in history. And they voted by a majority of approximately 1,250,000 to leave the hated E.U. This despite the fact that the so_ called elite,including those in the media,attempted to once aginn con the people,as they had in 1975.

Since the vote those who voted to remain have split into two camps, those who accept the democratic decision of the British people, and those who would help to undermine the will of the people by giving incouragement to the Bureaucrats in Brussels and their backers.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by nontabury

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

My words - There was a stark glimpse of reality yesterday, about 70 world leaders at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and Theresa May in London.

Your response - Remind us where Nicola Sturgeon was?

 

My words - national referendums may well be confined to the history books.

Your response - When you say referendums may well be confined to the history books, does that include a referendum on Scottish Independence?

 

Out of context comments intended to ridicule. If you deny the intention to ridicule Scotland then it must be personal attacks, either way a bit pathetic.

Again you are very good at making things up, if that is your attempt to say I ridiculed Scotland........pathetic, start being honest Sandy, no way did I ridicule Scotland and you know it, the proof is there in black and white.

[Jip99]

7 minutes ago, nontabury said:

We had a People’s vote in 2016. In fact it was the largest British vote in history. And they voted by a majority of approximately 1,250,000 to leave the hated E.U.

Since the vote those who voted to remain have split into two camps, those who accept the democratic decision of the British people, and those who would help to undermine the will of the people by giving encouragement to the Bureaucrats in Brussels and their backers.

 

 

Spot on....

 

There is, perhaps, also a third group - or maybe a sub-division of the first group - and I met some of them in the UK recently.

 

They are remain voters who not only respect the outcome of the vote but are also deeply offended by the way the EU has acted in these negotiations. Like most of us there is little credit given to the UK government. However, it is the actions of the EU that they were most intent on talking about and a number of them said that if there was another referendum they would vote Leave.

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

A "People's Vote" is looking more and more inevitable ????

Inevitable?? Given that both party leaders have consistently ruled it out it seems extremely unlikely. 

 

Last week Jeremy again ruled out revoking A50 too, and of course May won't, so it looks increasingly like no deal following Parliament's and/or the EU's rejection of Chequers mkii or whatever it's called at the moment.