UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The ultimate weapon we have is civil society. Putin can not compete. His people would DEARLY love to be in the EU but can not. In these days of social media and the internet, any threat from Russia is bust.

You are very optimistic; like any superpower, Russia, or China, or the USA, is big enough that its citizens have enough of the world within their borders that they don't need to leave, and can be convinced that they are better off where they are by a co-operative combination of societal prejudice and governmental brainwashing.

 

You and I are lucky that we come from a small country which counts amongst its greatest exports people who could make a contribution to their own country, miserable bastards, and alcohol poisoning, normally in the person of the former two.  And Rod Stewart, long may he linger abroad.

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

The 20th century history of Finland is fascinating. Some great documentaries on YouTube. The Finns did indeed side with the NAZIs at one point against the USSR. But you should read the history.  (And listen to Sibelius at the same time!)

My point is that Finland fought against the Russian invaders, regardless of what Germany or the British did - by that time France had also changed sides, apparently to the grave cost of rugby league in that country.  

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

he, grouse, is drinking blended

 

Monkey Shoulder is a blend of three single malts. Recommended. Seriously.

[nontabury]

34 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Do any British citizens owe money to any other European states?

How much, in aggregate?

 

Will leaving the EU make it easier ti recover the GBP 1B?

 

Do any citizens of non-EU states owe the British government anything?

Is the proportion of unpaid debt higher per capita for EU or non-EU visitors?

 

 

 

British citizens probably do owe some money to E.U countries, though it must be so insignificant, as I cannot find a figure for you.

No, it will not make it easier to recover the money. But it should stop any increase.

Regarding unpaid debt, from E.u or none Eu. Citizens, probably the former.

However I would prefer that no debt was incurred at the expense of the British taxpayers. Far better to spend the money on British citizens. Be it on the children of British ex-pats or to abolish university fees altogether.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Monkey Shoulder is a blend of three single malts. Recommended. Seriously.

I heard that Brexit has hit you badly and now you are drinking Ya Dong.

[StreetCowboy]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

British citizens probably do owe some money to E.U countries, (1) though it must be so insignificant, as I cannot find a figure for you.

No, it will not make it easier to recover the money. But it should stop any increase. (2)

Regarding unpaid debt, from E.u or none Eu. Citizens, probably the former. (3)

However I would prefer that no debt was incurred at the expense of the British taxpayers. Far better to spend the money on British citizens. Be it on the children of British ex-pats or to abolish university fees altogether.

I've put annotations into your text for reference.

(1) Or possibly no-one with an axe to grind has seen fit to blow it out of proporation.  Or alternatively, perhaps our lending system is at fault.  Or our recovery system. Do non-British EU students on average owe more unpaid debt than  their British counterparts?

(2) From EU citizens, possibly.  From non-EU citizens, probably not.  From British citizen defaulters, I doubt there will be a significant impact, except perhaps some small increase due to the fewer opportunities available to British graduates in Europe.

(3) and if not the former, then the latter.  In this world, nothing is certain, least of all speculation.

 

In an ideal world, we would not need to worry about petty personal debts incurred by investment in our communal future.But when we rely on the politics of envy, jealousy, and self-righteousness, the first casualty is always generosity, and the second tolerance.  Humour lasts longer, with its propensity for sanguine melancholy, but even humour is not without bounds.  When a nation loses its sense of humour, all it has left is its toothbrushes.

[StreetCowboy]

7 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Yeah, I figured you were a lying old wind-bag after a the first couple days, just thought I give you the benefit of the doubt.

My bad

 

First couple of days?  You say that now?

[StreetCowboy]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Monkey Shoulder is a blend of three single malts. Recommended. Seriously.

You want to get that Shoulder off your back.

[bomber]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

I heard that Brexit has hit you badly and now you are drinking Ya Dong.

brexit will hit everybody when commrade corbyn seizes power,expect 35bt to the £ 

[nontabury]

55 minutes ago, candide said:

I guess we refer to the same article

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/820072/Scandal-foreign-EU-students-owe-Britain-1-2-BILLION-student-loans-university/amp

It is a bit strange as the link suggests it comes only from EU students but in the article it concerns students from the whole world.

Anyway, as mentioned by another poster it has nothing to do with EU status as students from any country can get a student loan. It's 100% a UK law issue.

 

Not so. In order for a None- Eu student to obtain a loan for university education, they must reside in the U.K for at least the 3 yrs before entry to a U.K university.

 None E.u residents must pay their university fees up front. If this article is to be beleive,then I wonder how.

 I first became aware of how the system discriminates against British ex-pats, when the British Headmistress of my sons school in Thailand, had to resign and return to live in the U.K, when her eldest child completed their “o” levels. She told me her child would then after two years of “A” schooling in the U.k would be required to take a gap year before entering University.Of course if she had been an E.U citizen living in the E.U it would have been far more straightforward to obtain a British tax payers loan.

 

As a matter of interest, Do students in your country obtain free Univetsity education.

Edited November 19, 2018 by nontabury

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, bomber said:

brexit will hit everybody when commrade corbyn seizes power,expect 35bt to the £ 

To be fair, at the last election, he stood head and shoulders above the other candidates, and it was only his slightly quaint political views that held him back

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

 

Not so. In order for a None- Eu student to obtain a loan for university education, they must reside in the U.K for at least the 3 yrs before entry to a U.K university.

 None E.u residents must pay their university fees up front. If this article is to be beleive,then I wonder how.

 I first became aware of how the system discriminates against British ex-pats, when the British Headmistress of my sons school in Thailand, had to resign and return to live in the U.K, when her eldest child completed their “o” levels. She told me her child would then after two years of “A” schooling in the U.k would be required to take a gap year before entering University. Of course if she had been an E.U citizen living in the E.U it would have been far more straightforward to obtain a British tax payers loan.

 

As a matter of interest, Do students in your country obtain free Univetsity education.

Yes.  You should repatriate your children of high school age to Scotland.

The difference in cost between home student fees in England and state-funded fees in Scotland is not so much, but the environment, environmentally, politically and socially, is so much more pleasant that the reduced cost is only a small part.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, bomber said:

brexit will hit everybody when commrade corbyn seizes power,expect 35bt to the £ 

Well at least with the Labour party you get two parties for the price of one.

[StreetCowboy]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Well at least with the Labour party you get two parties for the price of one.

Like the Tories, where you get the DUP for nothing.  And over-priced, at that. Nothing bar some bribes regarding inward investment, but in the unlikely event that the money is invested wisely, it will be money well spent.

Edited November 19, 2018 by StreetCowboy

[vogie]

1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

Like the Tories, where you get the DUP for nothing.  And over-priced, at that. Nothing bar some bribes regarding inward investment, but in the unlikely event that the money is invested wisely, it will be money well spent.

Before I reply, are you being serious or sarcastic. ????????????

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Before I reply, are you being serious or sarcastic. ????????????

Pretty much yes.  
TO be honest, with Brexit, sarcasm and bufoonery overlap, and there's no room for seriousness in the middle, other than perhaps a sanguine melancholic maudlin of happiness past, and dreams of what might have been.

 

Anyway, on the bright side things could be worse, and I'm sure they will be soon, but after that, when things are as bad as they could possibly be, then they must get better, so there's scope for optimism in the future, if not now.

[nontabury]

20 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I've put annotations into your text for reference.

(1) Or possibly no-one with an axe to grind has seen fit to blow it out of proporation.  Or alternatively, perhaps our lending system is at fault.  Or our recovery system. Do non-British EU students on average owe more unpaid debt than  their British counterparts?

(2) From EU citizens, possibly.  From non-EU citizens, probably not.  From British citizen defaulters, I doubt there will be a significant impact, except perhaps some small increase due to the fewer opportunities available to British graduates in Europe.

(3) and if not the former, then the latter.  In this world, nothing is certain, least of all speculation.

 

In an ideal world, we would not need to worry about petty personal debts incurred by investment in our communal future.But when we rely on the politics of envy, jealousy, and self-righteousness, the first casualty is always generosity, and the second tolerance.  Humour lasts longer, with its propensity for sanguine melancholy, but even humour is not without bounds.  When a nation loses its sense of humour, all it has left is its toothbrushes.

For sure British students owe the largest amount, However I’m sure you know, that once their earning exceed a certain amount,they are required to

pay back a certain amount each week. And if need be, the government can and does enforce this rule.

In an ideal world we would not be expected to pay for the education of other countries children,certainly not at the expense of our own children.

 That is one of the reasons, that there are now thousands of British university graduates, who are starting off in life, saddled with huge debts.

 

[adammike]

27 minutes ago, bomber said:

brexit will hit everybody when commrade corbyn seizes power,expect 35bt to the £ 

Something else to blame the EU for.

[nontabury]

21 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Yes.  You should repatriate your children of high school age to Scotland.

The difference in cost between home student fees in England and state-funded fees in Scotland is not so much, but the environment, environmentally, politically and socially, is so much more pleasant that the reduced cost is only a small part.

Again they would have to reside in Scotland for 3yrs before obtaining a grant, just the same as the children of the returning Scottish headmistress, who I mention in the earlier post. 

 Of course if they enrolled into a Scottish university,after residing in another part of the U.K. they would be required to pay the full cost,without the opportunity of obtaining a students loan. Not so a citizen of the E.u.

 

 

 

[StreetCowboy]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

For sure British students owe the largest amount, However I’m sure you know, that once their earning exceed a certain amount,they are required to

pay back a certain amount each week. And if need be, the government can and does enforce this rule.

In an ideal world we would not be expected to pay for the education of other countries children,certainly not at the expense of our own children.

 That is one of the reasons, that there are now thousands of British university graduates, who are starting off in life, saddled with huge debts.

 

Do the debts of defaulters get spread amongst the other student debtors, or are they taken up by the tax payer?  I can see that it is unfair that people with high earning potential in the UK, like fraudsters, politicians, or reality TV celebrities have to subsidise foreigners, engineers and the like who abscond overseas to earn a living free of the thieving dead hand of the Revenue.  But whether the abscondees are British, EU non British, or our friends and brothers from other continents is irrelevant.  

 

So all in all, what do you reckon will be the net benefit in reduction of student debts incurred by barring EU students, against what we will lose in terms of our profligate youth incurring written off in the continent?

 

I don't know about you, but I actually think it is beneficial to meet and mix with people of other countries, and I think young people benefit particularly.  I suppose there's always the yardie gangsters and migrant slave labour, when we get rid of the foreign students.  

[StreetCowboy]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Again they would have to reside in Scotland for 3yrs before obtaining a grant, just the same as the children of the returning Scottish headmistress, who I mention in the earlier post. 

 Of course if they enrolled into a Scottish university,after residing in another part of the U.K. they would be required to pay the full cost,without the opportunity of obtaining a students loan. Not so a citizen of the E.u.

 

 

 

Not the full cost.  The Home Student cost.  Same as the Scottish Education Authority pays.  Take it up with your Local Education Authority.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by StreetCowboy

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

For sure British students owe the largest amount, However I’m sure you know, that once their earning exceed a certain amount,they are required to

pay back a certain amount each week. And if need be, the government can and does enforce this rule.

In an ideal world we would not be expected to pay for the education of other countries children,certainly not at the expense of our own children.

 That is one of the reasons, that there are now thousands of British university graduates, who are starting off in life, saddled with huge debts.

 

I think the Goverment should offer 3 year internship with the NHS/Social Care in return for free university courses

so you leave school start your 3 year internship with the NHS/Social Care and then enter university without incurring huge debts

for the people that don't what to that they can go on their gap 1/2 years and pay full whack up each year

[Chelseafan]

4 hours ago, damascase said:

The EU started negotiations with Thailand for a free trade agreement in 2013, but the militairy takeover stopped the process.

True. In June 2015, the EU said it would delay signing an agreement on closer economic and political ties and demanded a swift return to democracy.

Yet there is still not sign of democracy being returned to the Thai people but the EU have decided to commence discussions anyhow earlier this year -  A little bit hypocritical one would say also this is the same EU that reduced the GSP in 2014 making products more expensive as they considered that Thailand was no longer a developing country. Vietnam is picking up a lot of the slack at the expense of Thai industry/farms.

 

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-brexit-deal-eu-jeremy-corbyn-jacob-rees-mogg-united-against-upbeat-a8641516.html

 

Good night all ????

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed along with a reply.  

 

[beautifulthailand99]

3 hours ago, bomber said:

brexit will hit everybody when commrade corbyn seizes power,expect 35bt to the £ 

He won't 'seize' power it will be the democratic will of the people (TM - registered trade mark of Brexit means Brexit).

[candide]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

Not so. In order for a None- Eu student to obtain a loan for university education, they must reside in the U.K for at least the 3 yrs before entry to a U.K university.

 None E.u residents must pay their university fees up front. If this article is to be beleive,then I wonder how.

 I first became aware of how the system discriminates against British ex-pats, when the British Headmistress of my sons school in Thailand, had to resign and return to live in the U.K, when her eldest child completed their “o” levels. She told me her child would then after two years of “A” schooling in the U.k would be required to take a gap year before entering University.Of course if she had been an E.U citizen living in the E.U it would have been far more straightforward to obtain a British tax payers loan.

 

As a matter of interest, Do students in your country obtain free Univetsity education.

I see. For university education it's between euro 170 and 600/year. Business schools are much more expensive. In some schools, there is a different tariff for EU and non-EU students. All students, whatever their country, get a subsidy for their accomodation rental.

Around 4000 students from UK every year. 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

Do the debts of defaulters get spread amongst the other student debtors, or are they taken up by the tax payer?  I can see that it is unfair that people with high earning potential in the UK, like fraudsters, politicians, or reality TV celebrities have to subsidise foreigners, engineers and the like who abscond overseas to earn a living free of the thieving dead hand of the Revenue.  But whether the abscondees are British, EU non British, or our friends and brothers from other continents is irrelevant.  

 

So all in all, what do you reckon will be the net benefit in reduction of student debts incurred by barring EU students, against what we will lose in terms of our profligate youth incurring written off in the continent?

 

I don't know about you, but I actually think it is beneficial to meet and mix with people of other countries, and I think young people benefit particularly.  I suppose there's always the yardie gangsters and migrant slave labour, when we get rid of the foreign students.  

Simple, the debt now incurred by the foreign students could be better spent on our own students.

we can agree at least on one thing. I also think it’s very desirable for young people to meet and socialize with people of different cultures, race,religion,class and economic background. What I don’t want, is for us to be always picking up the tab. Especially at the expense of our own citizens.

Edited November 19, 2018 by nontabury

[tebee]

Brexit Status Update:-

 

 

Remainers: We’re doomed
Leavers: We’re doomed

[adammike]

5 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

Its not about the money.  Young people have enjoyed themselves at my expense, as if they were on a student grant.

And foreign young people to boot,rubbing salt into your wounds.