UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[NightSky]

2 minutes ago, bomber said:

someone on here yesterday was looking forward to the weaker pound as it would start an export led recovery after brexit ???? export what we dont make anything anymore and will be making even less once the BIG 4 car makers relocate, we certainly cannot compete with china/india etc,but we will have the most skilled tatty pickers in the world tho????

The pound has been very weak sine Feb 2016.

 

Back in the UK everyone I spoke with is wondering how they will still get their imports cheaply after Brexit and you are right about the UK not producing anything, the largest export is financial services run by the banks who have mentioned they would relocate.

 

Some of the 'issues' the led to Brexit needed resolving yes with regards to immigration from the EU and contributions from the UK although Brexit wasn't the answer.

 

The UK was in a well respected position to negotiate and we even managed to avoid the Euro and keep Sterling. We had leverage but after Brexit we will have no say and no leverage. All what remains following Brexit is for its younger citizens is to roll up the sleeves and get hands dirty for the next couple decades rebuilding at least whilst making do with rising inflation and higher prices goods and little opportunities for safe investments.

 

The older generations who voted for Brexit have already had the best years with the national health and social welfare and pensions, the state borrowed far too much over the previous decades and the young generations are now paying the price AND to rub the salt in as well they will be in a post Brexit UK too.

 

Its a farce.

 

Brexit was a result of Cameron's gamble and mistake and then fronted by idiots and a campaign of lies, who are no where to be found now. May was pushed in front as the escape goat 'Brexit lady'.

 

In the meantime, none of this has been good for the UK whatsoever. Its only been good to feed selfish and nationalistic egos.

 

[bomber]

6 minutes ago, NightSky said:

The pound has been very weak sine Feb 2016.

 

Back in the UK everyone I spoke with is wondering how they will still get their imports cheaply after Brexit and you are right about the UK not producing anything, the largest export is financial services run by the banks who have mentioned they would relocate.

 

Some of the 'issues' the led to Brexit needed resolving yes with regards to immigration from the EU and contributions from the UK although Brexit wasn't the answer.

 

The UK was in a well respected position to negotiate and we even managed to avoid the Euro and keep Sterling. We had leverage but after Brexit we will have no say and no leverage. All what remains following Brexit is for its younger citizens is to roll up the sleeves and get hands dirty for the next couple decades rebuilding at least whilst making do with rising inflation and higher prices goods and little opportunities for safe investments.

 

The older generations who voted for Brexit have already had the best years with the national health and social welfare and pensions, the state borrowed far too much over the previous decades and the young generations are now paying the price AND to rub the salt in as well they will be in a post Brexit UK too.

 

Its a farce.

 

Brexit was a result of Cameron's gamble and mistake and then fronted by idiots and a campaign of lies, who are no where to be found now. May was pushed in front as the escape goat 'Brexit lady'.

 

In the meantime, none of this has been good for the UK whatsoever. Its only been good to feed selfish and nationalistic egos.

 

sums it up perfectly,the old folks about ready for the grave have dealt the younger generation a bad hand,and the figure's/facts do suggest this was very much the case,in my 50 years on planet earth i dont recall anything EU based that effected my life so how it could effect someone with 1-20 years left to live is beyond me.

[adammike]

54 minutes ago, bomber said:

someone on here yesterday was looking forward to the weaker pound as it would start an export led recovery after brexit ???? export what we dont make anything anymore and will be making even less once the BIG 4 car makers relocate, we certainly cannot compete with china/india etc,but we will have the most skilled tatty pickers in the world tho????

The other elephant in the room is productivity! lowest in Europe more or less,not forgetting the average worker personified by David Davis once described as "lazy as f..k and thick as mince".

[melvinmelvin]

geeeez

one shall hear a lot before the ears fall off

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, JAG said:

That is a point of view, which has been argued vigorously and effectively by greater minds than mine, perhaps even than yours. Personally, I listened to the arguments for remaining and leaving, over a significant period of time, and on balance (I say that because both camps have valid arguments) I decided that the UK would be better off out, and voted accordingly. That does not mean that I regard the present government's performance with any delight, in fact, I think it is dismal, verging on the pathetic, that is not a reason for staying in the EU, or dismissing out of hand any views that hold that we should leave. There are reasons beyond the appalling fiasco caused by certain Conservative politicians for the shortcomings in any departure deal, and they emanate from Brussels rather than Westminster. The current and recent machinations within the government have led to a failure to confront those shortcomings, and present any effective negotiations.

 

Now changing tack, personally, I am getting more than a little fed up with "assumptions" that because I hold an entirely reasonable - reasoned even - view that, as I said was the result of considerable thought, I am in favour of any or all things which those who take an opposing view dislike. Over the last 20 months or so I have been variously accused of being stupid, ill-educated, belonging to the extreme right wing, racist, bigoted, paranoid and now in favour of striking trade deals with unsavoury and despotic regimes, because I don't parrot the views of the "remain" camp. I am none of those, in fact many would regard me as being rather liberal. My patience however is now near exhausted, if it were not for the moderators' likely reaction my response would be sharp, to the point, and somewhat "Anglo Saxon"!

 

I haven't been in the UK since before the referendum. My reading here and from other sources (I subscribe to the daily online edition of a long established broadsheet newspaper)  leads to believe that the whole affair has divided the UK as never before. If the tone of many of the posts here are anything to go by then that is true. I always try and make a point of respecting differing views. Do me the same courtesy please!

 

 

I'm glad you understand the position.

[stag4]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

Clearly, and not for the first time, it is you that demonstrates an inability to understand the point that is being made, either wilfully or through genuine ignorance. I’ll let others decide which is which.

 

Farage indicated on the eve of the vote results that he would continue to fight for Leave if the result narrowly went against him, 48% to 52% was the example he used. He had no problem in pursuing another vote in that situation, so he is a hypocrite for denying remainers the same opportunity or criticising them for seeking another referendum.

 

The government’s position is that there will be no second vote. If they can get their deal through that will be the end of the matter. If they cannot and attempt to go along with a no deal scenario they will lose a vote of confidence and be out of power. They will have no choice but to offer a new vote to the public ... MPs in both parties will not allow no deal to happen. May knows this, she’s already conceded that point with her comment about “no Brexit at all”. The last thing the Tory party wants is a general election, followed by a Corbyn government. All those old people that happily vote for a no deal Brexit because it does not affect them will then be looking forward to Corbyn wealth taxes on property and other assets. When Brexit affects you financially you start to look at it differently.

If Remain had won by a narrow margin, then there would not have been a snowballs chance in hell of a second referendum no matter what Nigel Farrage said.

Anyway how can you have a second referendum before the result of the first one has been implemented!

[Chelseafan]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

change first language? nothing wrong with scouse, just ask John Lennon

 

 

And look what happened to him ????

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You disagree that he is a remainer?

 

And yet you are adamant that only leavers are "being suckered"??

You didn't listen to what the man had to say! How can you possibly take an informed position? I decline to insult you. Bye.

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, stag4 said:

If Remain had won by a narrow margin, then there would not have been a snowballs chance in hell of a second referendum no matter what Nigel Farrage said.

Anyway how can you have a second referendum before the result of the first one has been implemented!

Get Parliament to pass a law establishing another referendum and then go on from there. I fail to see why that's not obvious.

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

To put it in your own words "you fit the description of a" remainer "nicely"....

Thank you kind sir

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

That you're pompous?

As it happens, I am indeed pompous AND arrogant 

 

However, how do you draw that conclusion from the fact that I called you all out on your failure to consider an analysis from an expert?

 

Bit of a non sequiter?

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

This sounds like it has become something of personal crusade Mr.G? ???? It needn't be. Would only be a waste of your time.

 

You disagree with me on most points - in fact we're often diametrically opposed, but that's fine, nothing wrong with it in fact.

I only told you to 'pipe down' in the first place because you brought up, what I see as, pretty arrogant assumptions in your post, yet again. I think you know what I'm speaking of. I had already answered your question along the same lines some time ago at least once with the honest answer, yet you still bring it up.

 

'Cantab? you're no Cantab!' The inference being - if I was Cambridge Uni educated then I wouldn't believe in the Brexit cause - a cause you happen to vehemently disagree with!

And look, I didn't really mean to insult you in the first place, it was a gentle ribbing, maybe you took it to heart a little too much? ???? Considering the pretty vitriolic comments you aim at other posters on here, perhaps you shouldn't do?

 

In any case, it is this aforementioned tone of pure condescension that runs through the whole Remaoner rhetoric that gets our collective goat on this side, I think it's fair to say.

 

'We Remainers are all awfully well educated don't you know, we really rather think you should listen to us, as we know best', etc. etc.

These same people with Russell Group Uni degrees coming out of the wazoo, seem to have hardly ever worked a day in their life nor seem to have a firm grasp on economics, business or the realities of the EU outside of the received wisdom their cohorts and professors have instilled in them. Living in an echo chamber, basically.

Judging by the blatant lack of astuteness of many people who like to make a point of mentioning their quality education, standards must've slipped! This could be witnessed time and again in the Brexit campaign, with the BBC doing a stellar job of platforming a vast array of venal dullards of the same ilk - promoting the EU cause without seemingly understanding or experiencing any of it's obvious flaws.

 

To address your point briefly re: Thatcher - something that happened throughout the 1980s that needs to happen again, IMO, is a reduction in the size of the state and its influence. The EU will never ever do that, their raison d'etre is consolidation of control and centralisation of that power - this can be seen in the very trajectory of the institution's  increased influence in everyday life as well as its growth into new and previously uncharted territory.

From a single market - to a customs union - to a political union - to a currency union - to a military union. It's insidious march towards totalitarian control is, I'd wager - not what the masses want - or ever voted for. We were never even consulted about any of it. It's complete lack of democracy can be witnessed time and again, so when you start saying we are far more interested in social justice and consensus/greater good for society and then in the same breath associate any of these notions with the EU, it only solidifies my view that you are misinformed about the subject & unable to appraise the facts. So to be honest, there is little point in discussing this topic with you further.

If the EU were simply what it started out as, I personally, would have no problem with it. Alas, it's mutated into a monster over the last 40 years, and it's high time it was vanquished. What with Brexit; Italian, Hungarian and Polish dissent and the mounting Eurozone/migrant crises I'd say it's days are very much numbered.

 

I would also add - you didn't even attempt to answer my question I notice, what part of what I said was incorrect or 'nonsense'?  

I withdraw my Cantab comment. You are quite correct to pull me up on that. I apologies. Bad day at the office etc.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I withdraw my Cantab comment. You are quite correct to pull me up on that. I apologies. Bad day at the office etc.

 

No harm, no foul...Famous Grouse ????. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, denby45 said:

What a load of rubbish. You are comparing apples and pears. Yes history tells us that people have always been misled when the elite require it. And yes they have got their way through many devious methods. This was no different in the fact that the elite again tried their best to mislead the people with the government spending millions on pamphlets and spreading malicious doom and gloom scenarios. However this time around despite all the efforts of the elite the people still voted to leave. One of the few times in history the people have refused to be conned and the elite should have got the message and been stunned into silence. Unfortunately the elite are very difficult to fight against especially when you have them ruling parliament and the upper house. Instead of carrying out the will of the people they have carried out a campaign to put as many blocks in the way as they possibly can including the latest bull***t agreement which is very likely to fail. It should fail because the only difference appears to be that the UK will pay the elite gravy train 40 billion extra bonus of taxpayers money this time around on top of what they already pay and all will remain the same as before.

 

Den

 

If you Brexiters would just get a few facts straight, you might improve your argument. The payment is for pre-existing commitments.

 

In reality the money would be paid over an extended period and amounts to the square root of damn all.

[tebee]

We should all try to be nice to each other 

 

By the wonderful  @bexin2d 

 

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/11/21/being-nice-is-the-new-punk

[My Thai Life]

Regarding the divorce bill - this is what the Lords said (from the BBC); it's been common  knowledge for a long time, to most of us anyway :

 

"The cross-party committee said talk of billions in pounds in liabilities was "hugely speculative" and there was a case that there may be no upfront cost to leaving.

"Although there are competing interpretations, we conclude that if agreement is not reached, all EU law - including provisions concerning ongoing financial contributions and machinery for adjudication - will cease to apply, and the UK would be subject to no enforceable obligation to make any financial contribution at all," it said.

"This would be undesirable for the remaining member states, who would have to decide how to plug the hole in the budget created by the UK's exit without any kind of transition.

"It would also damage the prospects of reaching friendly agreement on other issues.

"Nonetheless, the ultimate possibility of the UK walking away from negotiations without incurring financial commitments provides an important context.""

 

If the UK is expected to pay for future project expenditures, then it's reasonable to assume the UK should receive the future benefits of those projects. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by My Thai Life

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Get Parliament to pass a law establishing another referendum and then go on from there. I fail to see why that's not obvious.

Ha!

They only just passed the 'Brexit Bill' in parliament last July, enshrining Brexit into British law. Remaoners love to indict the majority with the comment that Brexit is 'making a mockery of democracy', how any Remoaner who is calling for a 2nd ref. has the gall to utter such a thing is quite stunning... however, if you really mean it, then surely passing such a law less than 18 months after the one that advocates the result of 2016, would be, even by a banana republic's standard's, totally absurd.

Edited November 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

JM argues the case for a Labour Coalition Government.

 

I think this can be a solid point of agreement among all TV members, particularly Bomber, and Vogie.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-john-mcdonnell-theresa-may-brexit-deal-parliament-vote-form-government-queen-a8644391.html

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, damascase said:

Of course, if you don’t like the message, attack the messenger............

The Brexiters don't understand the message. There has been no comment on anything that was stated. Mind you, there were some complex issues innit?

[mommysboy]

This is from BuzzFeed’s Alex Wickham.

Alex Wickham

 

✔@alexwickham

 

 

By our count 75 Tory MPs – both Leavers and Remainers – have publicly indicated they won't vote for May's deal.

- StandUp4Brexit MPs
- letter writers
- those who resigned
- others who've indicated they cannot support it

[mogandave]

If you Brexiters would just get a few facts straight...

Sill waiting for all the “facts” you promised.

[bomber]

15 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

JM argues the case for a Labour Coalition Government.

 

I think this can be a solid point of agreement among all TV members, particularly Bomber, and Vogie.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-john-mcdonnell-theresa-may-brexit-deal-parliament-vote-form-government-queen-a8644391.html

 A labour govt???? is coming anyway,as is 32bt for a Quid as well as a boat load of other issue's that wont be for the better

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

JM argues the case for a Labour Coalition Government.

 

I think this can be a solid point of agreement among all TV members, particularly Bomber, and Vogie.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-john-mcdonnell-theresa-may-brexit-deal-parliament-vote-form-government-queen-a8644391.html

For someone (yourself) who has been slating the present Labour Leadership for what seems like an eternity I struggle to believe that anyone would listen to that man. He has been rabbitting on about a Labour Government now for two years, didn't he say that Labour had actually won the National Election. Every Labour Minister has a different idea on brexit, mainly McDonnell, Corbyn and Starmer. When Alistair Campbell was asked if Labour was split, he said "no, they are just divided"

Honestly how are the Labour Party going to make up a majority?

Please don't mention my name on the same page as McDonnell, I really need to go lie down in a dark room now.

[AlexRich]

20 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

This is from BuzzFeed’s Alex Wickham.

Alex Wickham

 

✔@alexwickham

 

 

By our count 75 Tory MPs – both Leavers and Remainers – have publicly indicated they won't vote for May's deal.

- StandUp4Brexit MPs
- letter writers
- those who resigned
- others who've indicated they cannot support it

A classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory ... second referendum will please Alex Wickham? 

[mommysboy]

28 minutes ago, bomber said:

 A labour govt???? is coming anyway,as is 32bt for a Quid as well as a boat load of other issue's that wont be for the better

These things will likely be coming anyway, won't they?

[bomber]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

For someone (yourself) who has been slating the present Labour Leadership for what seems like an eternity I struggle to believe that anyone would listen to that man. He has been rabbitting on about a Labour Government now for two years, didn't he say that Labour had actually won the National Election. Every Labour Minister has a different idea on brexit, mainly McDonnell, Corbyn and Starmer. When Alistair Campbell was asked if Labour was split, he said "no, they are just divided"

Honestly how are the Labour Party going to make up a majority?

Please don't mention my name on the same page as McDonnell, I really need to go lie down in a dark room now.

the man in the street/weatherspoons wont be bothered about any of the above come polling day.

[Tweedle dee]

I left the UK 15 <deleted> years ago..and all i see here is this boring relentless shit ..why oh why do you hang on to momys apron  strings . go back home FFSKs

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Tweedle dee said:

I left the UK 15 <deleted> years ago..and all i see here is this boring relentless shit ..why oh why do you hang on to momys apron  strings . go back home FFSKs

I'm guessing you're a remoaner, right.????

[Scott]

Baiting post and reply removed.

 

[mogandave]

I left the UK 15 years ago..and all i see here is this boring relentless shit ..why oh why do you hang on to momys apron  strings . go back home FFSKs

Another well thought out response from one of those claiming intellectual superiority...