UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[My Thai Life]

24 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I’m just sharing my personal experience. And don’t pretend to be surprised. Basically every poll analysis shows that those voting for Brexit, Le Pen, Wilders, AfD, Pis, Trump, etc. tend to share those similarities. 

You are just talking in stereotypes. All 17 million of them right. And I'm not surprised at all at your stereotypes.

 

Are you suggesting that their vote is worth less than yours, because they have less education than you? Or their opinion is less important? Why don't you let us know your educational attainments. Then we will know how superior you think you are.

 

Or is it just sour grapes because you lost.

 

I thought pseudo liberals were supposed to be in favour of inclusiveness right? But not when you are being disagreed with by the "uneducated".

 

 

[Sir Dude]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

For an issue as serious as this, you really should read up a little more an avoid making asinine comments....

Nice supercilious comment...good job there Grasshopper

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 4:03 PM, dick dasterdly said:

"No. The two main parties feared the wrath of the great unwashed."

 

Pretty much sums up the opinion of many remainers - even though it is a throw-back to the beginning/middle of the last century ☹️.

 

It will clearly come as a suprise for you to learn that even the poor wash.... ?.

 

You prefer to rely on these types of insults rather than recognise that the fact of the matter.  The two main parties realised that if they had backed 'remain' as part of their campaign in the last GE, they would have lost numerous votes - which is why they weakly supported the referendum result, and concentrated on other issues instead.....  The Lib Dems on the other hand, made it very clear that they supported remain, and lost even more votes....

 

I do agree though that "of course forecasts can be made".  Sadly, said 'forecasts" have been proven wrong time and time again since the leave/remain propaganda started - in the run-up to the referendum.

The "great unwashed" is a saying, a Bon mot, a figure of speech, an idiom. You knew immediately what I meant and it was in no way an insult. If I insult some group you will see it and hear it screaming in from miles away.

 

I re-iterate that the main parties were fearful of incurring the wrath of the underprivileged the disadvantaged and the pissed off (washed or not)

 

They voted such as to mollify them instead of standing up and saying in a strong voice "Brexit is a bloody stupid idea"

 

Clear now?

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Nice supercilious comment...good job there Grasshopper

Arrogance and pomposity are my stock in trade! Thank you sir!

Edited August 22, 2018 by Grouse

[rixalex]

Why is a referendum different to a GE - if my party lost in one I'd not be expected to support the winning one instead ?
 

You don't have to support it but you have to respect it's right to govern. That is if you are calling yourself a democrat.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

 

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The "great unwashed" is a saying, a Bon mot, a figure of speech, an idiom.

One definition from the Collins Dictionary

"originally a patronizing or contemptuous use, now usually ironic in application, with reference to elitism"

 

A man of your wisdom would presumably have known this, despite your protestations of innocence ?

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

One definition from the Collins Dictionary

"originally a patronizing or contemptuous use, now usually ironic in application, with reference to elitism"

 

A man of your wisdom would presumably have known this, despite your protestations of innocence ?

OK, it's a fair cop....

 

but the meaning was understood through an economical phrase.

 

Actually, after living in Scandinavia and Thailand, it seems to me that most of the UK are, er, inadequately and infrequently washed.

 

Now back to the topic before we chucked in the shower ?

 

[swerve]

The people who didn't like the initial voting results what to keep having new votes until they get the result they want. I have seen this before.

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 4:16 PM, My Thai Life said:

An integrated Europe is a great idea. I am a committed European, and have worked right across Europe inside and outside of the EU.

 

But an EU of "ever closer [political] union" is not something I would vote for.

 

I have a feeling the UK budget negotiations might take us into an area that would be satisfactory to most, but probably not the hardline exiters.

 

Clearly, some remainers are unhappy because of the immediate effect on their business, or employment, or income. This is understandable, and I do sympathise with them. These problems are not insuperable. And they are in the nature of things anyway.

 

We already won an opt out against "ever closer union"

[adammike]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

And I had a completely different experience. Now what?

 

Maybe check what those people you talk to earn, work, and have in their brains. Because based on my experience, that’s a pretty good indicator for their opinion towards the EU and many other topics:

 

The less educated, smart, financially stable and professional they are, the more likely will they be against the EU (and basically everything, as long as they can be against it), usually based on the same nonsense you hear from Brexiteers (I.e. accusations, paranoia, conspiracy theories, and castles in the sky lacking any factual evidence). 

Don't get uptight he's talking about guys he meets in bars in Thailand and s.e.a.

[adammike]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

We already won an opt out against "ever closer union"

Who said "when they were in the wanted all the opt-outs and now they are out they want all the opt-in's.

[welovesundaysatspace]

29 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You are just talking in stereotypes. All 17 million of them right. And I'm not surprised at all at your stereotypes.

I didn’t say all 17 million. I said there are consistencies amongst voters voting for Brexit, Le Pen, Wilders, etc. 

 

29 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Are you suggesting that their vote is worth less than yours, because they have less education than you? Or their opinion is less important?

No. Where did I say so?

 

29 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Why don't you let us know your educational attainments.

Bevause it’s irrelevant. 

 

29 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Then we will know how superior you think you are.

I didn’t say I’m superior. 

 

29 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Or is it just sour grapes because you lost.

Where/When/What did I lose?

 

 

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:13 PM, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Because it is not up for discussion or reformation, none of their transgressions or incompetencies are! That's the point! It should be clear at this point.

We should be driving change from within instead of messing around like this. We should be at the top in the EU instead of sulking off

[My Thai Life]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We already won an opt out against "ever closer union"

The "ever closer union" is not defined, so honestly I'd be surprised if we had in advance opted out of everything it might bring; I don't see how we could have done, even if we had wanted to. 

 

As you yourself have pointed out, different UK governments have taken diametrically opposite views of our relationship to the EU;  and there have been many positions taken in between those diametrical opposites.

 

Even if one UK government had come to that sort of agreement, I'm sure it would have been possible for the ensuing government to consider it as merely an interim agreement.

 

However, you seem to be making that point quite emphatically, so please let me know the how, who and when (don't worry about the why or where).

[My Thai Life]

16 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We should be driving change from within instead of messing around like this.

I agree with you in principle, but in practice we cannot because we have never been at the centre, despite Blair's spin. We are non-euro, non-schengen. We are geographically separate. We are separated by water (apart from dear old Ireland). We have a different type of legal and political system from much of Europe. And historically we have often positioned ourselves as being closer to the USA than to Europe. And anyway "we" have voted to leave.

 

You know all of this of course, so why do you continue with this fantasy. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by My Thai Life

[tebee]

46 minutes ago, rixalex said:

You don't have to support it but you have to respect it's right to govern. That is if you are calling yourself a democrat.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I can respect their right to govern, but equally I can oppose policies which I disagree with. So it is with the referendum. If they ever come up with a decent way to do Brexit I will give it my full support, but as of now, every move they have made has been bad if not plain wrong.

 

I don't want brexit, but I especially don't want a brexit that will be bad for most of the people in the country.  

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:19 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Because they have no intention of 'fixing it'! 

 

The 'eu gravy train' is not just a myth - it's a reality and one of my major 'gripes/objections' against the eu ☹️.

 

And yes, I realise that uk politicians/bureaucrats are little better - but at least we have a minimal amount of 'control' over their excesses.  Hence the scandal about brit. MP's 'expenses' - which were at least curtailed a little as a result.

 

Plus, you asked for one example of something universally hated about the eu - and I provided the most obvious.

 

Clearly there are many other reasons why so many voted for brexit!

So if the UK said we'll remain if you drop Strasbourg you think the EU would not consider it? What about their desperation to keep us in. Weak.

[My Thai Life]

If I were a remainer (or a leaver) worried about the future, which I'm not, I'd be working on mitigating the downside for my personal situation (if there is any, there isn't in my own personal case), not indulging in copy and paste, bunfights, and point-scoring on internet forums.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

If I were a remainer (or a leaver) worried about the future, which I'm not, I'd be working on mitigating the downside for my personal situation (if there is any, there isn't in my own personal case), not indulging in copy and paste, bunfights, and point-scoring on internet forums.

How do you know people are not doing that? Does the one thing exclude the other one?

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:24 PM, dick dasterdly said:

The eu has made it very clear (even after the brexit vote!) that this is not the case ☹️.

You're not really a negotiator are you!

[My Thai Life]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So if the UK said we'll remain if you drop Strasbourg you think the EU would not consider it? What about their desperation to keep us in. Weak.

The EU is a Benelux coup (minus Netherlands, a fantastic bunch of Europeans) aimed at developing the export market for excellent German engineering, and subsidies for inefficient French farmers, with plenty of kickbacks for Be[Ne]Lux.

 

"O" level politics, philosophy and economics essay, in by Monday morning please.

Edited August 22, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:51 PM, My Thai Life said:

The issue that the remain camp keep on ducking, and not just on this thread is "what does 'ever closer union' mean?". As this has never been defined, there can only be speculative answers. I suspect that most remain voters have never even thought about it.

 

In the short-term, while the UK is adjusting to whatever new relationships, processes and systems we will be working with post leave, there will inevitably be an economic hit. The long term is simply not predictable.

 

In the long-term there may not even be an EU, or it may be in a very different shape from today. There are many fault lines within the EU, and any one could lead to its downfall. The overriding dependency on Germany is a major risk to the EU; if for whatever reason Germany goes into recession, the EU will be finished. The UK's departure could trigger positive change and reform within the EU, but I doubt it. 

 

If the EU had kept to the original expectation of being a common market, I suspect the UK would never have even raised the idea of a referendum.

We already have an opt out of ever closer union. The EU will be more of an onion than a union

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 7:16 PM, My Thai Life said:

What you failed to quote from the article you linked to is that the CEO who said this went on to say that in this scenario an increase of about 10% would be passed on to the consumer. You also failed to say that later on in the article it was agreed that the UK would be in control of  its own import tariffs, and that we could set the tariff at 0% if we chose to.

 

And this CEO was just talking about importing from the EU. But of course we would be free to import from other countries without EU bureaucracy and without EU non-tariff barriers.

 

But thanks anyway, a useful read. We shouldn't be complacent about the scale of the potential short-term disruption.

And who's going to lay down the law on standards?

 

Hygene

Hormones

Pesticides

Husbandry standards

Pollution

etc

 

Give me EU food safety any day

 

And what about UK farmers????

[My Thai Life]

Grouse, are you on the juice aready ? puns about onions and unions don't cut the mustard, bit cheesy actually ?

 

 

  1 hour ago, Grouse said:

We already won an opt out against "ever closer union"

48 minutes ago My Thai Life said

 

The "ever closer union" is not defined, so honestly I'd be surprised if we had in advance opted out of everything it might bring; I don't see how we could have done, even if we had wanted to. 

 

As you yourself have pointed out, different UK governments have taken diametrically opposite views of our relationship to the EU;  and there have been many positions taken in between those diametrical opposites.

 

Even if one UK government had come to that sort of agreement, I'm sure it would have been possible for the ensuing government to consider it as merely an interim agreement.

 

However, you seem to be making that point quite emphatically, so please let me know the how, who and when (don't worry about the why or where).

 

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Edited August 22, 2018 by My Thai Life

[rixalex]

I can respect their right to govern, but equally I can oppose policies which I disagree with. So it is with the referendum. If they ever come up with a decent way to do Brexit I will give it my full support, but as of now, every move they have made has been bad if not plain wrong.
 
I don't want brexit, but I especially don't want a brexit that will be bad for most of the people in the country.  

But you're not respecting their right to govern, you are trying to go back and get their GE win overturned because you don't like their policy. That's not how it works.

Bottom line is, you either support the enactment of a democratic vote as was clearly promised, regardless of whether you agree with it or not - in which case you're a democrat - or you don't support the enactment of a democratic vote and wish for it to be somehow subverted, ignored or swept under the carpet, because you think you know best - in which case you're not.

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[Sir Dude]

31 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We already have an opt out of ever closer union. The EU will be more of an onion than a union

Nice slight-of-hand there on that...magicians the world over would be impressed with such misdirection, haha. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Sir Dude
typos

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 7:47 PM, Sir Dude said:

Yeah...he's a gin drinking drunk...everyone knows.

Just like The Queen Mother but Junker doesn't have the legs for it.

 

Churchill's favourite, Pol Roger, would be a better choice.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Tebee, I agree with many of the things you say as usual. I am a Brit, I didn't vote, wasn't offered a vote, and didn't want a vote. Had I voted, I would have voted Leave for political reasons, and Remain for national economic self interest. But to respond to your points.

 

> Asking for consensus when there is none is just wishful thinking and not going to help.

> If anything is going to cause a breakdown of the political system, it would be a 2nd referendum.

> History has taken a dim view of most PMs, depending on whose version of history you read. I am by no means a supporter of May, but really I can't see how any politician could have done much better in the circumstances. The country and the parties are genuinely split, fragmented, over this issue. And I don't want to be drawn into a discussion about the minutiae.

> "Two years and no plan?" That's right, because there is no consensus (and there never will be, even years after the deed is done). You know this as well as I or anyone else.

> Re your last point. I don't think the choice is going to be that stark. I feel that the discussion around the UK budget is going to take us in a direction acceptable to most people other than hard leavers.

 

I think we are both mature enough to know that no-one is going to get exactly what they want out of this mess. And a degree of compromise and acceptance is going to be required of all of us. I see precious little of that on this forum.

 

Without a clear consensus, the correct way forward is to maintain the status quo. The decision taken by parliament. If you want a referendum to ratify that, go ahead.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I would disagree, there are of course some underlying benefits, but they are outweighed by the net loss we incur from having to pay extortionate amounts to remain part of the EU and of course the reams of legislation that have been pushed down our throats since 1975. Again, I reiterate that its about loss of sovereignty, having to ask permission from Brussels/Strasbourg and having our own parliament have to go to the EP/EC and ECHR to have our own legislature ratified. If we had taken the advice of the EU supremos and joined the Eurozone, I think we would be as screwed as Spain/Portugal/Ireland/Italy or France's economy is now. The fiscal, customs and political union between industrially developed and populous countries (particularly in the north of Europe) and smaller less economically / industrially developed ones in the south was never going to work. If you think nations like Greece (now a debt colony), Portugal, Spain and Italy are enjoying all the benefits and glories of the EU and have prospered in recent years then you really do have that selective memory you mentioned. Without even touching on the so called 'refugee crisis' being enjoyed across the contintent, again, thanks EU / Ms. Merkel. Our own recent history has not been dictated solely by the EU either, both the benefits and the detriments, I would admit.

0.4% of GDP for the benefits received is not excessive

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

@Bboy, this is what I wrote:

 

"But of course we would be free to import from other countries without EU bureaucracy and without EU non-tariff barriers."

 

For ease of understanding perhaps I should have written:

 

"But of course we would be free to import from other countries without EU bureaucracy and trade without EU non-tariff barriers."

 

Hope that helps, cheers.

 

The EU is regarded by some of the most well-informed commentators as being a protectionist cartel. And I can't say I disagree with them. Somehow it all went wrong, or maybe it just started wrong and got worse.

 

 

 

 

Yes indeed! And we need protectionist barriers. You want foul food imports? You want our farmers to compete with that? You want our workers to compete with the Chinese? You want a race to the bottom? I want to encourage excellence!