UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[billd766]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Here we go again with these doubts Grouse! Yes, I'm 100% Cantab, but hey - I'm town, not gown, pal.

 

Do you imagine everyone in 'Bridge speaks the queen's English with a high pitch 1940's BBC announcer style voice ?? ?

 

I keep the Economist handy - right beside the lav for emergencies...like when I run out of loo roll. ? 

 

It would be handy up here in rural Thailand.

 

I could use it for swatting flies and mosquitoes.

[My Thai Life]

On 8/30/2018 at 11:36 AM, Grouse said:

Brexit is idiotic and an excellent example of why it is a mistake to ask the masses for a direct opinion more complex than what's for lunch!

So you don't approve of referenda, but you want  a "2nd" referendum. And you've told us you want a 66% majority. And you say it's only advisory anyway. How many knots do you want to tie yourself up in?

 

You've displayed your authoritarian tendencies in quite a few posts, and this is a good example, but not the most extreme example by any means.

 

Surely you know that we Brits don't really respond to that?

Edited August 31, 2018 by My Thai Life

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

So you don't agree with referenda, but you want  a "2nd" referendum. And you've told us you want a 66% majority. And you say it's only advisory anyway. How many knots do you want to tie yourself up in?

You've displayed your authoritarian tendencies in quite a few posts, and this is a good example, but not the most extreme example by any means.

Surely you know that we Brits don't really respond to that?

"we Brits". Give me a break. Occasionally one hears that from a know-nothing provincial Brit spouting off in some bar off Soi Buakaow. 'Hello' one thinks, its launchpad time.

[timbothaivisa]

the end.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

"we Brits". Give me a break. Occasionally one hears that from a know-nothing provincial Brit spouting off in some bar off Soi Buakaow.

I think you'll find that there are some characteristics we Brits share regardless of gender, class, education, UK county of origin, income, sexual orientation and politics.

 

And we Brits would know that.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I think you'll find that there are some characteristics we Brits share regardless of gender, class, education, UK county of origin, income, sexual orientation and politics.

 

And we Brits would know that.

I was going to comment on a similar post yesterday where someone was talking about 'British values' but I got distracted. 

 

What exactly are British characteristics and values? Other than talking incessantly about the weather, what are the personality features which are unique to our countrymen?

[SheungWan]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I think you'll find that there are some characteristics we Brits share regardless of gender, class, education, UK county of origin, income, sexual orientation and politics.

And we Brits would know that.

That would be Brits living on Planet Hovis.

[My Thai Life]

 

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

That would be Brits living on Planet Hovis.

As opposed to Sheungwan , apparently a "Brit" living under Bill Murray's photo and the moniker of a Taiwanese historical character. C'mon.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I was going to comment on a similar post yesterday where someone was talking about 'British values' but I got distracted. 

 

What exactly are British characteristics and values? Other than talking incessantly about the weather, what are the personality features which are unique to our countrymen?

Great sense of humour is definitely one of the best characteristics of British people. It allows the rest of us to forgive a lot of things, which British have done and are.

 

Stagnation in the past is one of the worst parts of British folks. Some people try to glorify themselves by what their grandfathers did for the country 70 years ago. That's just stupid.

 

Overall there is a sense of fairness and understanding the larger picture with Brits in general. At least by those I have interacted with and who I'm happy to have as my friends.

 

 

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

As opposed to Sheungwan , apparently a "Brit" living under Bill Murray's photo and the moniker of a Taiwanese historical character. C'mon.

Taiwan?

[Grouse]

41 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

So you don't approve of referenda, but you want  a "2nd" referendum. And you've told us you want a 66% majority. And you say it's only advisory anyway. How many knots do you want to tie yourself up in?

 

You've displayed your authoritarian tendencies in quite a few posts, and this is a good example, but not the most extreme example by any means.

 

Surely you know that we Brits don't really respond to that?

Allow me to explain

 

1) referendums for decision making are always a cop out. Our system is one of representative democracy for good reason; we are not all equally well informed.

 

2) Referenda are usually reserved to approve a decision already taken and even then, for constitutional issues a super majority is required to avoid the kind of civil war that we have now 

 

3) I am not in favour of a SECOND referendum. However, in view of the shower we have in the House of Commons today, it would be wise to see if a super majority agrees to the proposed way forward

 

Finally, I am absolutely against totalitarianism or authoritarianism. You must have noticed my pro Scandinavian stance and my angst about the SD in Sweden 

[My Thai Life]

Let's get back to the substantive issue SheungWan. I've pasted my OP to Grouse below. But the first paragraph could be applied to the large majority of "remainers" who have contributed to this thread.

.

48 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

So you don't approve of referenda, but you want  a "2nd" referendum. And you've told us you want a 66% majority. And you say it's only advisory anyway. How many knots do you want to tie yourself up in?

 

You've displayed your authoritarian tendencies in quite a few posts, and this is a good example, but not the most extreme example by any means.

 

Surely you know that we Brits don't really respond to that?

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

Great sense of humour is definitely one of the best characteristics of British people. It allows the rest of us to forgive a lot of things, which British have done and are.

 

Stagnation in the past is one of the worst parts of British folks. Some people try to glorify themselves by what their grandfathers did for the country 70 years ago. That's just stupid.

 

Overall there is a sense of fairness and understanding the larger picture with Brits in general. At least by those I have interacted with and who I'm happy to have as my friends.

 

 

I appreciate your points - but I am sure that we can all identify with them to a greater or lesser extent regardless of where we hail, because I don't believe that those qualities are unique to Brits, nor are we equally endowed with them.

 

Admittedly, we have this sense of identity exceptionalism that simply isn't justified, but we are not alone there either. 

[ballpoint]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

What exactly are British characteristics and values? Other than talking incessantly about the weather, what are the personality features which are unique to our countrymen?

Hanging on in quiet desperation.  Some would say it's the English way, but it generally applies to all UK citizens.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

Hanging on in quiet desperation.  Some would say it's the English way, but it generally applies to all UK citizens.

Now I need to go and find my Dark Side of the Moon CD ?

[sandyf]

On 8/30/2018 at 9:37 AM, My Thai Life said:

You're going well off track here Sandy. It's clear that the most discontented people on this thread are the remainers who cannot  accept the result of the referendum.

 

As for myself, I have said many times I would have been equally content with a leave or a remain vote. And I would have accepted either.

 

But leave won. and you still can't accept it. Your discontent is palpable.

There are rules about truncating sentences, but it makes it easy for you to go out of context, doesn't it.

Are you really trying to tell us that people did not accept the result of the referendum before the referendum took place, bit far fetched even for a neutral brexiteer.

[ballpoint]

59 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Now I need to go and find my Dark Side of the Moon CD ?

Time.

 

 

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

There are rules about truncating sentences, but it makes it easy for you to go out of context, doesn't it.

Are you really trying to tell us that people did not accept the result of the referendum before the referendum took place, bit far fetched even for a neutral brexiteer.

I often do keep to short sentences here, because it avoids confusion, especially for people on this thread whose first language is not English. But apart from the occasional typo, my sentences are perfectly formed.

 

It doesnt stop you from wilfully misconstruing things that I say though does it? As you have done now, again. (Apologies for the lack of apostrophes, my keyboard is currently confused about whether its English, Thai or American.)

 

Yes I was and am neutral, I am equally happy with leave or remain. Some remainers still havent realised they lost. The rest of us are just getting on with our lives. 

 

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, timbothaivisa said:

the end.

Do people really believe that DC could speak for a future government, the government can change its mind, as we see on a regular basis. The UK government only see its time in office and is too busy firefighting to get distracted by long term planning. One of the benefits of going into Europe was that while the government concentrated on political point scoring someone else was progressing some of the more mundane issues.

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I often do keep to short sentences here, because it avoids confusion, especially for people on this thread whose first language is not English. But apart from the occasional typo, my sentences are perfectly formed.

 

Incorrect, you break up sentences to change context and create confusion.

Not for the first time the text quoted was part of a sentence.

 

16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.
 

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Do people really believe that DC could speak for a future government, the government can change its mind, as we see on a regular basis. The UK government only see its time in office and is too busy firefighting to get distracted by long term planning.

Erm no the government cant change its mind about something as important as this, and it hasnt. Try reading the full text of timbos image copied above and thinking about it

 

But you can carry on indulging in what you presumably consider to be some kind of activism on Thai Visa. Thats your right.

 

 

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.

Sandy, this is a quote.

 

What you were referring to before was not a quote, and the rule that you are quoting from is therefore not applicable.

 

You seem to be intent on dragging this thread into personal bickering and insults.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

"we Brits". Give me a break. Occasionally one hears that from a know-nothing provincial Brit spouting off in some bar off Soi Buakaow. 'Hello' one thinks, its launchpad time.

 

I am rarely in soi B/Pattaya

But say 2-3 times every 2 weeks I am downtown BKK,

after having completed my business in BKK I enjoy sitting in a beer bar, enjoying dry martinis/GTs

while reading my newspaper and doing some Sudoku.

 

I kinda happen to visit some bars that also attract Brits, expat or not I don't know  I don't talk to them.

 

What I frequently hear from the bar stools occupied by Brits is along the following lines;

 

<deleted> Merkel

<deleted> Germany

<deleted> unelected bureaucrats

<deleted> EU

no need to pay even a farthing

hard Brexit is the only sensible solution

let GB be great again

 

some of the d-heads actually speak proper English, most do not

they are not all from Motherwell  but Newc/Shields and jocks are well represented

 

dunno,

but probably better for UK to have that lot in LoS rather than on the foggy islands

 

 

 

 

[Stupooey]

On 8/30/2018 at 11:54 AM, SteveB2 said:

The EU... So predictable!

Oh dear, the popular vote didn't go the right way. 

Better get the Peasants to vote again ?

 

You don't tell us the source of this table, but the blatantly misleading headline makes it look like it's from the Express, Mail or Sun.

"Don't take no for an answer"?

Denmark 2000 and Sweden they certainly did as the results were accepted, it says so.

After France and the Netherlands rejected ratification of the EU Constitution in 2005 it was abandoned, so I fail to see how they can say the results were ignored. The Greece referendum was hastily called and the people were asked to vote on a set of proposals which had already been superseded. The vote was only ignored insofar as the EU came up with further proposals to solve the crisis, which the Greek Government then accepted.

The others I believe all relate to cases where a small majority in a single country was blocking a treaty which had been ratified in every other member country. Whilst the EU rule that major decisions must be agreed to by all is admirable in principle, it can lead to cases where it appears democracy is being compromised. In Ireland in 2008, a majority of 110,000 was blocking the Treaty of Lisbon, which had been ratified in all the other 27 nations (Croatia was not yet a member). In other words, the wishes of about 300 million were being stopped by 55,000 Irish votes. Rather than abandon the Treaty entirely, the EU quite rightly sought a solution to the impasse. They first commissioned a poll asking why people had voted against the treaty, and the most common response (22%) was that they didn't understand what they were voting for (a similar poll in the Irish Times gave the same result, with an even higher percentage). After discussion with the Irish Government, three changes were made to the amendment to the Constitution being voted on, to clear up the misunderstandings in the areas of tax, abortion and defence. The Treaty of Lisbon itself needed no changes. This revision was then voted on in a referendum the following year, and this time it was accepted by 67% to 33%, a swing of just over 20%, which implies that once people actually knew what they were voting for the result was very different. 

Certain parallels with the UK situation today, wouldn't you say?

[sandyf]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Sandy, this is a quote.

 

What you were referring to before was not a quote, and the rule that you are quoting from is therefore not applicable.

 

You seem to be intent on dragging this thread into personal bickering and insults.

I am not bickering and not going to argue with you. I have reported the last 2 posts in breach of the rules.

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Certain parallels with the UK situation today, wouldn't you say?

Absolutely no parallels with the situation today, or very tenuous if you want some wriggle room. All IMHO of course.

 

Youve done an excellent piece of research though, thanks, most welcome in this thread often devoid of meaningful comment (sorry for the lack of apostrophes, my keyboard is confused as to whether its English, Thai or American at the moment).

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I am not bickering and not going to argue with you. I have reported the last 2 posts in breach of the rules.

Lol. Really? Your posts could have been reported many times for abusiveness, but some of us grew out of this kind of behaviour decades ago (both the abusiveness, and the resort to prefects).

[Srikcir]

4 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Certain parallels with the UK situation today

Not with the Greek bailout referendum.

The majority voted in a socialist party to reverse the EU's austerity requirement. But the leader had an epiphany and realized renegotiating bailout terms with the EU that would include even greater austerity was the answer to Greek's economic survival. As such, against the majority of the electorate according to the polls but with the majority support of the parliament the government agreed to a renegotiated deal with the EU. Subsequently, he survived a no confidence vote and remains in power.

[Stupooey]

30 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Not with the Greek bailout referendum.

The majority voted in a socialist party to reverse the EU's austerity requirement. But the leader had an epiphany and realized renegotiating bailout terms with the EU that would include even greater austerity was the answer to Greek's economic survival. As such, against the majority of the electorate according to the polls but with the majority support of the parliament the government agreed to a renegotiated deal with the EU. Subsequently, he survived a no confidence vote and remains in power.

Agreed, but the referendum result was ignored by the Greek Government, not the EU as the original article suggested.

My comment about 'certain parallels' was mainly aimed at the Irish situation.

[Henkjan2]

I think Brexit is a loss for both sides. 

 

Of course i dont like to pay for Greece and have all those East-European countries in, but now we're together we have to go on.

 

There are enormous benefits obviously being a big Europe ... i'm not going to mention them btw.