Pheu Thai will ban military conscription if voted in

[tomta]

9 hours ago, robblok said:

I like the plan for sure, i don't like the PTP as you know but this is a great plan. I just think it can't be done as its anchored in the constitution. Just like future forward who i do like who want to do shrink the military. These are just empty promises as it can only be done if they have like 70% of votes. So I like the plans but nobody should think it will be really done unless they got like 70% of votes. 

I had no idea you were such a stickler for constitutions, Robblok. Constitutions can be got rid of easily. Things are not so much anchored in the constitution as floated there.

[tracy3eyes]

Thailand went 15 years without a coup which was very promising then the same old elite supported military establishment decided democracy wasn't working when in fact it was, but because they don't really want real democracy in Thailand and a better life for the majority. That is obvious! Thailand has been heading for a blood letting class war for a very long time. It is not a question of if, but when.

 

 

[tomta]

5 hours ago, DrTuner said:

Going for the junta's jugular, eh? Will be interesting to see how they retaliate.

A kick to the groins is the normal response.

[tomta]

20 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

A very good platform. Thailand has no reason to draft soldiers. No threats on any of their borders. No foreign commitments, so no rational reason except to prove that the elite rule.

That is a powerful reason that will be defended tooth and nail

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, chainarong said:

Conscription isn't required, however it was regarded a great  honor to represent the King in days of old , how that is viewed these days is anybody's guess, even though the military try their best to oblige, the age limit interferes with UNI education, as not all areas conscripts sent to have the same courses, resulting a dropping of courses and believe it or not most commanders I have known over the thirty five years associated with Thailand,  they don't want people there who don't want to be there, mostly this is a ancient tradition to the crown.   

 

I think that what you say is a very good argument for keeping conscription.

 

In this totally militarized society lack of conscription would probably lead to more frequent and more violent coups.

[zzaa09]

12 minutes ago, tracy3eyes said:

Thailand went 15 years without a coup which was very promising then the same old elite supported military establishment decided democracy wasn't working when in fact it was, but because they don't really want real democracy in Thailand and a better life for the majority. That is obvious! Thailand has been heading for a blood letting class war for a very long time. It is not a question of if, but when.

 

 

This continued and mind numbing talk of democracy this and democracy that - here a democracy, there a democracy, everywhere a democracy [which, of course, doesn't truly exist anywhere in the world]. Has become institutionally jargonistic slogan for the slighted and dumbed down... 

 

What type/style of reinvented and contradictory "democracy" might you [and most others] be speaking of as befitting Siam? 

Thais are quite free to live their lives as they see fit and has existed for quite a while - independent and self-sufficient character is quite the norm. More so than you might find within the so called democratic cultures. 

 

[pornprong]

26 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

This continued and mind numbing talk of democracy this and democracy that - here a democracy, there a democracy, everywhere a democracy [which, of course, doesn't truly exist anywhere in the world]. Has become institutionally jargonistic slogan for the slighted and dumbed down... 

Only the slighted and dumbed down could be content to exist without democracy.

 

26 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

What type/style of reinvented and contradictory "democracy" might you [and most others] be speaking of as befitting Siam? 

The type/style that enables Thais to choose and remove the leaders of their nation.

 

26 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Thais are quite free to live their lives as they see fit and has existed for quite a while - independent and self-sufficient character is quite the norm. More so than you might find within the so called democratic cultures. 

Thais are far from free, to state otherwise is pure ignorance.

[baboon]

1 hour ago, zzaa09 said:

 Thais are quite free to live their lives as they see fit and has existed for quite a while

Just as long as they don't eat a sandwich with political intent, have no desire to elect their representatives, play Tropico, find out how their sons really did die while serving the army and speak their minds without the threat of prison. Yes, in that case a certain amount of freedom is still currently permitted.

Edited August 28, 2018 by baboon

[zzaa09]

It appears that many don't keep real Thai company and circles nor have any true kinship with Thai affairs, yet continue on fancifully as if they know what they speak of. 

 

All too typical of this usual crowd.

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

It appears that many don't keep real Thai company and circles nor have any true kinship with Thai affairs, yet continue on fancifully as if they know what they speak of. 

 

All too typical of this usual crowd.

Ah, a loquatious version of what is sometimes known as a "Harry Enfield moment":

" Oiy am considerably more successful than you!"

[pornprong]

Just now, zzaa09 said:

It appears that many don't keep real Thai company and circles nor have any true kinship with Thai affairs, yet continue on fancifully as if they know what they speak of. 

All too typical of this usual crowd.

Because real Thais want to be oppressed and downtrodden by a greedy minority?

Oh wise one, do enlighten us pitiful souls not beholden to prejudice and bigotry.

All too typical of............ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

[Sir Dude]

Banning conscription and moving to a willing professional volunteer army would seriously make the Thai army better. It is not fighting any conflicts (or contributing to any) and is in no need of unwilling conscripts...which, by doing this, make the worst soldiers of all for them anyhow. Many countries have learned this lesson already...but seems that here have not. Guess they need the gardeners, builders and slaves of all descriptions for the retired army officers all over...see it all down my local road too. A little pathetic really.

[baansgr]

Considering over 30% of conscripts tested positive for drugs its not such a bad think, what regular wants a spaced out junkie looking after their back.

[candide]

9 hours ago, pornprong said:

Most "Shin" promises touted by Junta Fanboys turn out to be no more than unscrutinised junta propaganda and lies.........unless of course you have a link or two??

I tried to find some links and did find some: Baerboxer's posts on Thaivisa forum! ?

[candide]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I think that what you say is a very good argument for keeping conscription.

 

In this totally militarized society lack of conscription would probably lead to more frequent and more violent coups.

It's a very relevant comment.

[Eric Loh]

Thailand should considered abolishing conscription during peace time and retain an act that can order conscription when the country face threats. Most countries that have conscription ( draft) or national service ( compulsory) post WW2 turbulent period have abolished them as they enjoy peace but retain the law to order conscription when encounter threats. 

[tomta]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I think that what you say is a very good argument for keeping conscription.

 

In this totally militarized society lack of conscription would probably lead to more frequent and more violent coups.

?????????????????

 

OK. Reasons.

 

It's not a totally militarized society.

 

The coups have been many. Hub of coups. World record holders, I believe. Usually peaceful.

 

Occasional bloody aftermath.

 

violent coups. Oh, I get it. The army will stop pussy-footing if they are deprived of people to keep control in Isaan while the elite troops fire on temple nurses in Bangkok.

 

[zzaa09]

14 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Thailand should considered abolishing conscription during peace time and retain an act that can order conscription when the country face threats. Most countries that have conscription ( draft) or national service ( compulsory) post WW2 turbulent period have abolished them as they enjoy peace but retain the law to order conscription when encounter threats. 

Most might ignore the base justification and existence for a continuing strong military presence in Thailand.

Has little to do with foreign threats and everything to do with a domestic equivalent.  

[JAG]

7 hours ago, holy cow cm said:

They don't have to and it doesn't really matter as the military controls too much. But all Thai men think they are free and it is not the case. Under the older law, ALL the conscripts and ALL the Ror Dor kids who finished are still military personal (reserve) until 23 years have passed. So before if this is grandfathered all the military has to do is just call everyone into service for that period for the next 23 years when put on reserve. So, just say if you are at your 22nd year and almost free, they can call you in to serve. Average age would be from 41(18+ 23) - 44 (21+23). Now, if it is the newer law in true effect, then they reserve your life from 18-40 years old. so if Pheua Thai does away with it, it doesn't matter one bit except for the new kids!

For FYI: Article from Feb 2016. The junta passed a new bill called the Reserved Forces Act. The junta-appointed legislature passed the bill with four abstentions. Other than an online petition, there was no outcry of debate. Under the new law, 12 million male citizens aged between 18 and 40 are subject to a random draft for two months military training regardless of their past duty. The annual drafting number would be 300,000, 2.5% of the target citizens.

The provision certainly exists, and the school age Ror Dor graduates have always had a reserve commitment - do you remember how Abhisit was able to mince around as a reserve Second Lieutenant on the strength of his school cadet service?

 

But there are many practical differences. Firstly you have to keep track of all these reservists in order to call them up. The British Army struggled to keep track of it's (ex regular) reservists, I very much doubt if the Thai Army would be any more successful.

 

Secondly, if you are going to magic up a further 300,000 blokes, more than doubling your army in one fell swoop, then you are going to have huge problems making it work. You are going to need huge numbers of experienced officers and NCOs to command and train them. You are going to need huge amounts of weapons and kit, and transport and rations, and accomodation. You are going to need a massive command, communication and control effort to turn them into any sort of a remotely useful force. What you will end up, if you can ever collect them together in the first place, is several hundred thousand virtually untrained and untrainable totally pissed off blokes, useless in any military sense. Let us not even consider the effect upon the economy of the disruption to the labour force...

 

All this proposal ever has, and probably ever will achieve, is a nice wet warm sensation in assorted senior officers underpants.

[holy cow cm]

12 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Most might ignore the base justification and existence for a continuing strong military presence in Thailand.

Has little to do with foreign threats and everything to do with a domestic equivalent.  

Yep. Ror Dor and all conscripts are still military for 22/23 years after they finish. So it is basically being owned as you are still in reserves. How you gonna fight 12 million reserves if they are all called back to serve or be beaten? And more and more and more unknowingly become slaves. Knowing would then become unwilling if the groups revolted from education of joining hands. 

[tomta]

7 hours ago, chainarong said:

Conscription isn't required, however it was regarded a great  honor to represent the King in days of old , how that is viewed these days is anybody's guess, even though the military try their best to oblige, the age limit interferes with UNI education, as not all areas conscripts sent to have the same courses, resulting a dropping of courses and believe it or not most commanders I have known over the thirty five years associated with Thailand,  they don't want people there who don't want to be there, mostly this is a ancient tradition to the crown.   

From which Bible did you get the idea that it was such a great honour in days of old? Suriyothai or Naresuan 1, 2  and 3? The Thai History books written for primary or secondary  or tertiary indoctrination? Or just the general reverence and doffing of the cap? I've seen films which make it a great honour to go over the top in WW1. They're still being made as we speak. 

 

If conscription wasn't required, why does it exist? 

 

As far as your commanders go, clearly you associate with an elite who owe their allegiance to ancient and revered tradition. Noblesse oblige.

 

Like Louis 1V1, I suppose. Sorry, guv'nore , not so good at the old latino numerales. You work out the battle plan for the somme Me and me mates'll be there singing god save the old <deleted> whoever he iis

[holy cow cm]

12 minutes ago, JAG said:

The provision certainly exists, and the school age Ror Dor graduates have always had a reserve commitment - do you remember how Abhisit was able to mince around as a reserve Second Lieutenant on the strength of his school cadet service?

 

But there are many practical differences. Firstly you have to keep track of all these reservists in order to call them up. The British Army struggled to keep track of it's (ex regular) reservists, I very much doubt if the Thai Army would be any more successful.

 

Secondly, if you are going to magic up a further 300,000 blokes, more than doubling your army in one fell swoop, then you are going to have huge problems making it work. You are going to need huge numbers of experienced officers and NCOs to command and train them. You are going to need huge amounts of weapons and kit, and transport and rations, and accomodation. You are going to need a massive command, communication and control effort to turn them into any sort of a remotely useful force. What you will end up, if you can ever collect them together in the first place, is several hundred thousand virtually untrained and untrainable totally pissed off blokes, useless in any military sense. Let us not even consider the effect upon the economy of the disruption to the labour force...

 

All this proposal ever has, and probably ever will achieve, is a nice wet warm sensation in assorted senior officers underpants.

Perhaps, but also an extreme foul bitter taste in some like my sons mouth. They still are essentially owned. And I hate that!

[tomta]

5 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

Perhaps, but also an extreme foul bitter taste in some like my sons mouth. They still are essentially owned. And I hate that!

So did my father. I was in a school cadet company doing the compulsory bivouac up at the big camp at Puckapunyal in Victoria. Our officers -teachers enjoying BBQ and beer at base camp - had ignorantly planted my platoon in the path of a proper army tank manoeuvre. Picking up tents and kit at 5am is not a lot of fun. Exploding cans of bully beef the night before was.

 

My dad was a modestly decorated NCO from WW11. Saw some action in Borneo. He said the shit was running out of him from fear and dysentery. His bullets were not aimed.  He was a member of the Australian occupation forces in Japan. He saw Hiroshima and he said that he was to blame for it (during Vietnam when I was old enough to sort of understand). He was to blame for it, he said, because the only reason he went to war was because you couldn't get a girl without a uniform.

 

He got very pissed off with some colonel type who questioned him on his business of coming to see me and my mates.

 

I wonder what really happned many years later

[kevvy]

On 8/28/2018 at 5:55 PM, JAG said:

You live up here in the frozen North don't you Kevvy? Don't get too worked up about your wife being able to vote - last time the Thais went to the polls (the constitutional referendum) there simply weren't any polling stations in this neck of the woods - so no one in the amphur got to vote.

Yes it gets cold here especially living in the country below the mountains ... I remember  just a few years ago had to scrap the ice off the windscreen.. And have seen hail falling too

[The manic]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:38 AM, robblok said:

Just wait for the court cases to finish and then he will be convicted for coruption. That is why he never came back too worried about the court cases.. and I bet you forgot the cake box incident.. I mean honest mistake of Thaksin, if you believe that you believe in Santa Claus too.

He was no more dishonest than other Thai politicians,  but he got things done for the people and for the country. Mass transit,  airport, health and welfare schemes...and he got the vote of 25 million people. The current shower have done nothing but feather their own nests, socially cleanse urban areas, and pitifully, tried to micromanage bus routes. People are in Debt, there is no rule if law, ..

rightly or wrongly  under Taksin thought they had a future. They did have the right to vote him in or out. Nobody voted for the current lot.

[Falcon]

Certainly would be a great move for the young people of Thailand if the conscription was ended. Be great for my son too. They’ll probably never be allowed to get in to power but good luck to them (and us) on this point alone.

[zzaa09]

On 8/28/2018 at 9:16 AM, Menyang said:

Thakky is way to smart for the generals

Wouldn't take much, actually....

Consider the game.

[robblok]

9 hours ago, The manic said:

He was no more dishonest than other Thai politicians,  but he got things done for the people and for the country. Mass transit,  airport, health and welfare schemes...and he got the vote of 25 million people. The current shower have done nothing but feather their own nests, socially cleanse urban areas, and pitifully, tried to micromanage bus routes. People are in Debt, there is no rule if law, ..

rightly or wrongly  under Taksin thought they had a future. They did have the right to vote him in or out. Nobody voted for the current lot.

That is the mistake many of you guys make.. he was voted in so he had a right to steal.. he had no more right to steal than any Thai politician and anyone who does is crook in my book not just Thaksin. It was just clear how much he stole. I can't think of any PM with more corruption cases against him than Thaksin. That might be because they had it out for him or it might be that he was more corrupt. But either way he was corrupt and a crook in my book. 

 

Voting is NOT a way to punish corruption its a way to select a government. Courts punish corruption. I don't want any corrupt crooks in government junta or otherwise.

[stud858]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

he was voted in so he had a right to steal..

Unfortunately, yes , thats how it is, thats why the term limits are introduced in some countries, so the stealing can be shared around.

 

Tax being used 100% for good of society is not going to happen until robots run the world

Edited August 30, 2018 by stud858

[boonrawdcnx]

If I would be Thaksin / PT I would go further - commission a study that will show that the entire armed forces of this country are more or less useless and not needed at all - and how much they have cost the tax payer since they last fought a war on elephants or running barefoot with cheap swords!

(Sorry I forgot that the declared war on the allied forces at the end of WWII - but they did not get to fight in it !) And I do not want to mention Baan-Rom-Klao here - that would be too embarrassing.

The amount would be in the trillions of baht!

The study would show that they could easily be replaced by some kind of modern, well equipped border police comprising of probably 1/10 of the current ridiculous number of soldiers compared to other countries with a similar population.

Now we are talking real money that could be spent for useful things like education, infrastructure, hospitals e.g in addition it would free up hundreds of thousands of citizens who currently contribute nothing to the countries GDP - who could do actual work instead of playing maids for superior officers.

Thailand’s aging population will need them very soon. Unless of course they will start to hire cheap Chinese and more Cambodian and Burmese Labour to fill the need - and this itself will be the real threat because they will then take over the country from within especially the Chinese who have just been invited in by this shortsighted pseudo government!

Present that amount to the Thai people and show them that there is no need that we have little children who go hungry every day and old people who are left to themselves trying to survive on 600 baht a month - while some people wear jackets that cost a years salary for others and ugly fat people wear watches for millions around their wrist!


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