Minimum requirement for solar power plant in Thailand?

[Sydebolle]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:12 AM, BritManToo said:

300w panel 8,000bht

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/325-4bb-i190238297-s240333742.html

600w grid tie inverter 3,000bht (can connect to 2x 300w solar panels)

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/suoer-grid-tie-inverter-gti-d600b-600-600-650-vmp-35-39-v-voc-42-45v-i225187753-s344133681.html

 

Homepro were selling 300w solar panels for 5,000bht last month.

 

Thank you very much for this information ???? 

[anon2736434]

What are you going to run on 600 watts ? A few lights ? Not worth the money. Amorn has the 300 watt panels for 4800 baht right now. Too many people want to add solar to their existing home without doing a power usage/requirement audit. Just saying I will buy a XX Kwh system is foolish without knowing what you will really need to power what you have. 

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Notagain said:

What are you going to run on 600 watts ? A few lights ? Not worth the money. Amorn has the 300 watt panels for 4800 baht right now. Too many people want to add solar to their existing home without doing a power usage/requirement audit. Just saying I will buy a XX Kwh system is foolish without knowing what you will really need to power what you have. 

It's to reduce your leccy bill. A 300w panel will give 1-2 units/day.

About 7 years to pay off the cost of the equipment, and the panels will last 20+ years (not so sure about the grid tie inverter).

No worthwhile for me as I'll probably be dead before then.

Edited October 4, 2018 by BritManToo

[impulse]

2 hours ago, Notagain said:

What are you going to run on 600 watts ? A few lights ? Not worth the money. Amorn has the 300 watt panels for 4800 baht right now. Too many people want to add solar to their existing home without doing a power usage/requirement audit. Just saying I will buy a XX Kwh system is foolish without knowing what you will really need to power what you have. 

 

I get one of those power usage/requirement audit reports every month.  Comes free.  Otherwise, how would I know what to pay?

 

 

[anon2736434]

25 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I get one of those power usage/requirement audit reports every month.  Comes free.  Otherwise, how would I know what to pay?

 

 

Kinda missed the meaning of a power usage audit relating to a solar power setup didnt ya. 20+ years on a cheap branded panel dream on, 1 year warranty on that lazada panel. And that worthless cheap inverter from lazada ?  3 month warranty, until they argue your grid power damaged it.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Notagain
addition

[impulse]

3 hours ago, Notagain said:

Kinda missed the meaning of a power usage audit relating to a solar power setup didnt ya. 20+ years on a cheap branded panel dream on, 1 year warranty on that lazada panel. And that worthless cheap inverter from lazada ?  3 month warranty, until they argue your grid power damaged it.

 

2 or 3 years ago, I went to a trade show at BITEC, and some of the Chinese vendors were selling kits rated at 5K, 10K, 15K or whatever you needed.  Included panels, inverters, wiring, mounting brackets, wiring, etc.  Everything needed for either roof mount, or standalone, all in one crate (big crates, BTW).  For about $0.75 per watt (they claimed it was CIF pricing, but I think they were fibbing and it was ex-works), rated at 20% efficiency. 

 

Other vendors were selling kits with everything, including batteries, but I didn't price them because of the vagaries of battery tech.

 

The next few years at the Canton Fair, panels dropped another 10-20% a year so I suspect the kits are down below $0.70 per watt + batteries.

 

If someone else has done the engineering, about all I'd need to do is bring them my power bill...  Then sniff test their offering based on my engineering background.

 

Edit:  BTW, anyone interested in solar should go to the Renewable Energy trade shows at BITEC.  You'll have to look up the schedule since I'm too lazy, having started my repatriation process.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by impulse

[anon2736434]

"based on my engineering background" If you have any engineering background you would understand a monthly power bill has nothing to do with a solar power system especially with batteries involved. That bill is telling you how many units a month you use but nothing about your power usage depending on what is running in your home and at what time of the day (peak demand) So if you are running the ac, frig, fans, lighting, washer, etc all at the same time how many KW's are needed and how long can you run them all at the same time ? Thats why most solar users have to watch their usage and not overload their system to the point of over stressing their batteries and inverters. Its not that simple. Thats why competent solar installation companies will come in and audit your usage with a lot of questions about your power needs and peak demands.

[rvaviator]

One way would be to use a power meter logger and run that over a few weeks – Then plot your instantaneous W usage against time.

[anon2736434]

Logging your daily usage and your peak usage times are very important. The first thing is to find out your major power draws and when/how long you would be using them. Running multiple ac units all day is going to be almost a no go unless you have a massive system. What about the fridge, shower boxes, fans, lighting, cooking appliances, maybe a freezer they all add up. Back home its a lot easier being able to supplement with natural gas options available , here almost everything is electric. Personally if I was to build another house here (not gonna happen in the present political climate) I would run a separate 12 volt led lighting system for the whole house, gas shower boxes, and all appliances including the ac would be inverter technology but then you are talking about even more expense. I can get almost a 50% rebate thru state and federal tax credits back home making it a viable way to lower my energy costs. Just dont see it here as being a good investment. On one last note tier 1 panels/inverters back home are half the price compared to here and batteries too along with more advanced battery technology for what you pay for lead acid boat anchors in thailand.

[rvaviator]

23 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Logging your daily usage and your peak usage times are very important. The first thing is to find out your major power draws and when/how long you would be using them. Running multiple ac units all day is going to be almost a no go unless you have a massive system. What about the fridge, shower boxes, fans, lighting, cooking appliances, maybe a freezer they all add up. Back home its a lot easier being able to supplement with natural gas options available , here almost everything is electric. Personally if I was to build another house here (not gonna happen in the present political climate) I would run a separate 12 volt led lighting system for the whole house, gas shower boxes, and all appliances including the ac would be inverter technology but then you are talking about even more expense. I can get almost a 50% rebate thru state and federal tax credits back home making it a viable way to lower my energy costs. Just dont see it here as being a good investment. On one last note tier 1 panels/inverters back home are half the price compared to here and batteries too along with more advanced battery technology for what you pay for lead acid boat anchors in thailand.

and work very hard on insulation ... being energy efficient is best done taking an all-inclusive approach ... But you pay up front ... 

[anon2736434]

24 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

and work very hard on insulation ... being energy efficient is best done taking an all-inclusive approach ... But you pay up front ... 

Very good point on the insulation.

[impulse]

12 hours ago, Notagain said:

"based on my engineering background" If you have any engineering background you would understand a monthly power bill has nothing to do with a solar power system especially with batteries involved. That bill is telling you how many units a month you use but nothing about your power usage depending on what is running in your home and at what time of the day (peak demand) So if you are running the ac, frig, fans, lighting, washer, etc all at the same time how many KW's are needed and how long can you run them all at the same time ? Thats why most solar users have to watch their usage and not overload their system to the point of over stressing their batteries and inverters. Its not that simple. Thats why competent solar installation companies will come in and audit your usage with a lot of questions about your power needs and peak demands.

  Let me give you a few reasons you're wrong:

 

1) Thousands of homes are being built every month from scratch with solar.  No history whatsoever.  Just like the PEA gives you a choice of several sized meters.  Because they fit 95% of the homes...

 

2) There is enough historical data floating around that you don't need a history to design a proper solar system.  There are cookbooks that say, if your usage is XXX kw-hrs/month, you're peak load is XXX, and you need YYY kw installed.  And they'll be right 95% of the time.

 

3) Taking a power survey gives you a snapshot in time.  Your needs will change by the season, and as your habits change.  Designing a system based on a power survey less than a year long is a recipe for disappointment when you do it in the wrong season, or just before you add some appliances you didn't even know you needed.  Or install a pool.  Or remodel your kitchen.

 

4) Power surveys are expensive- unless you do a Mickey Mouse job of it.  Long term power surveys can cost more than a solar system itself.  Or at least more than the cost of building in some redundancy in case your consumption or peak is higher than you may expect based on millions of data points and anecdotes collected from existing systems.

 

5) Most people aren't trying to get off the grid.  They want a system that will reduce their electric bill.   Why spend $$$ thousands on a power survey if you don't even need to know your peak demand.  (And if you're not spending $$$ thousands on the survey itself, you're either getting a Mickey Mouse survey, or it's built into the cost of your system by those competent solar installers who often use such as a sales tactic, then go to their cookbooks to design the system.)

 

6) You went personal.  I just semi-retired from 35 years as an engineer- mechanical and petroleum.  Often designing power systems for onshore and offshore installations- based on future needs we couldn't measure because they hadn't happened yet.  It's done all the time.  And I've been involved in a lot of power optimization surveys and remediation work.  It's expensive.

 

[anon2736434]

1) Where are these thousands of homes being built ? and what has pea meters have to do with that ?

2) Lots of "cookbooks" around yes along with other fiction fantasy books

3) Taking a power survey before spending tens of thousands of baht is what smart consumers and reputable companies do

4) Power surveys are not expensive, we are not talking about building a city here

5) Most people wanting solar are def. wanting to cut out the power company, if not whats the point !

6) People bragging on forums about their job history is like a pattaya bar stool cia/sas story. Dont believe a word of it unless I know you.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, Notagain said:

1) Where are these thousands of homes being built ? and what has pea meters have to do with that ?

2) Lots of "cookbooks" around yes along with other fiction fantasy books

3) Taking a power survey before spending tens of thousands of baht is what smart consumers and reputable companies do

4) Power surveys are not expensive, we are not talking about building a city here

5) Most people wanting solar are def. wanting to cut out the power company, if not whats the point !

6) People bragging on forums about their job history is like a pattaya bar stool cia/sas story. Dont believe a word of it unless I know you.

 

So, how do you figure California builders are sizing up the solar systems for 15,000 NEW solar homes a year?  And that's just one state...

 

California averages about 80,000 new homes a year, with about 15,000 currently including solar installations. Over all, at the current rate of home building, the new requirement will increase the annual number of rooftop solar installations by 44 percent.

 

Sources:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/business/energy-environment/california-solar-power.html

 

https://theurbandeveloper.com/articles/california-becomes-first-state-to-order-solar-on-new-homes

 

Edit:  BTW, what I like about California's rule is that the cost of the solar is amortized into the new home mortgage, making the payout calculation pretty easy.  Typically, the electric bills are reduced by about 2x the increase in the mortgage payment due to the additional cost of the solar system.  And that's at today's relatively low energy costs.  As energy costs increase, the electrical savings will increase, too.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by impulse

[anon2736434]

Thought we were talking about thailand but oh well lets bring in the usa and california. https://www.sempersolaris.com/california-solar-incentives-2018/ Please read it carefully being an engineer maybe you will understand that it is cost effective with incentives and net metering there, NOT HERE. And read the last sentence in the article very slowly so you will understand what im saying - 

contact us today to schedule a free, onsite energy analysis.

[shaemus]

On 10/5/2018 at 11:42 AM, Notagain said:

Thought we were talking about thailand but oh well lets bring in the usa and california. https://www.sempersolaris.com/california-solar-incentives-2018/ Please read it carefully being an engineer maybe you will understand that it is cost effective with incentives and net metering there, NOT HERE. And read the last sentence in the article very slowly so you will understand what im saying - 

contact us today to schedule a free, onsite energy analysis.

Wow. 

 

Electricity works the same all over the world. 

 

Solar W/per Msq does change. 

 

It might be better for some. Of the experts here to do a maximum demand calc and then a peak load analysis. It's not expensive. There are plenty of tools on line to help. 

 

Fundamentaly.at the start of a design you should decided to go on grid or off grid. 

 

Off Grid is More expensive as. You have to buy batteries, etc

 

On grid is cheaper. (less equipment) and let's use Thailand as the factual base for this. Meters are analogue ( spinning disc type) there are no peak/off peak Tarrifs or price differences for KW./h at different times of the day. 

 

By using grid connect system (non hybrid) 

You will effectively slowing your meter down and potentially making it go backward should you generate more than use. And obviously you won't be generating at night. 

So it is a case of Kwh consumed / Kwh produced. There aren't seemingly many financial benefits in Thailand to export power to the grid. 

 

The more Ideal  Option in this country would be to have hybrid type system. So power back up etc etc. But much more. Pricey. And not worth the money in Thailand. 

 

In reference to the ex. Job title jibe. I'll say this. I worked as a solar installation manager and system Designer in Australia so I think I am Qualified to comment. I have software that does full shade analysis and power analysis etc etc plus full generated power outcomes. Etc etc. 

 

Solar is expensive in Thailand due to the import Tarrifs. Plus for domestic you would have to have a lot of faith in your Thai installer to do the design and installation safely. 

 

Good luck and if anyone gets hold of the list of approved PV equipment please post up

 

 

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, shaemus said:

Good luck and if anyone gets hold of the list of approved PV equipment please post up

Your wish ...

 

MEA list of approved inverters (grid tie)

https://www.mea.or.th/upload/download/file_d3904ae560ebead6c00c0b5b521ccd21.pdf

 

and the PEA list

https://www.pea.co.th/Portals/0/Document/vspp/PEA_Inverter_list_29-Aug-18.pdf

 

I don't think either have any true hybrids approved yet (I've not checked every model).

 

 

[shaemus]

13 hours ago, Crossy said:

Your wish ...

 

MEA list of approved inverters (grid tie)

https://www.mea.or.th/upload/download/file_d3904ae560ebead6c00c0b5b521ccd21.pdf

 

and the PEA list

https://www.pea.co.th/Portals/0/Document/vspp/PEA_Inverter_list_29-Aug-18.pdf

 

I don't think either have any true hybrids approved yet (I've not checked every model).

 

 

Thanks very much Crossy.

 

In doing a bit of research yesterday I came across this article https://m.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2110147/sales-rooftop-solar-power-begin-thailand

 

And then this older document. (attached) it's an unnoficial translation. I was a bit shocked. By a couple of requirements in there. The stainless frame for mounting (normally extruded aluminium for rooftop) and the hdpe for conduit. It could just be the translation and it is quite old (pre junta) and I could have my plastics mixed up.tbe requirement in Aus used to be HD conduit and marked up as a solar conduit, but the conduit I see for sale here yellow or white is pvc. I see hdpe used for hv conduits. 

 

Thanks for the info I will have a good luck through as i will be installing a PV system. I have often thought of starting my own PV install business. Maybe the time is right. 

20130918_giz_translation_solar_rooftop.pdf

[shaemus]

14 hours ago, Crossy said:

Your wish ...

 

MEA list of approved inverters (grid tie)

https://www.mea.or.th/upload/download/file_d3904ae560ebead6c00c0b5b521ccd21.pdf

 

and the PEA list

https://www.pea.co.th/Portals/0/Document/vspp/PEA_Inverter_list_29-Aug-18.pdf

 

I don't think either have any true hybrids approved yet (I've not checked every model).

 

 

Do you have the PV panel list? I had look on the PEA site but I couldn't locate it. 

 

Thanks 

 

Shaemus 

[Crossy]

26 minutes ago, shaemus said:

Do you have the PV panel list? I had look on the PEA site but I couldn't locate it. 

I don't think there's an actual panels list (I could be wrong of course), both authorities are more concerned with the inverters, after all it's that which is directly connected to their networks.

[shaemus]

52 minutes ago, Crossy said:

I don't think there's an actual panels list (I could be wrong of course), both authorities are more concerned with the inverters, after all it's that which is directly connected to their networks.

I am going to be speaking to. A few vendors this coming week. I will check what they say. 

 

I am still wondering about the stainless steel requirements for the mounting frame. I have a colorbond roof. And. If I used stainless I would have a very quick and bad galvanic reaction and a big rust hole. 

 

Time will Tell All

[BritManToo]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:12 AM, BritManToo said:

300w panel 8,000bht

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/325-4bb-i190238297-s240333742.html

600w grid tie inverter 3,000bht (can connect to 2x 300w solar panels)

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/suoer-grid-tie-inverter-gti-d600b-600-600-650-vmp-35-39-v-voc-42-45v-i225187753-s344133681.html

 

Homepro were selling 300w solar panels for 5,000bht last month.

600w grid tie inverter now 2,700bht

300W panel 3,750bht

 

So a good price drop over the past year.

[emptypockets]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 2:58 PM, BritManToo said:

No need for any of that, if you just want to 'ease' your electricity bill.

Grid Tie inverter (5kbht) + solar panel (5kbht) then just plug it into the nearest mains socket.

No limit on how many you plug in, no need to tell anyone (Shhhhhhh)

Until you kill an electrician working on the overheads that he thought were isolated.

[emptypockets]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:29 PM, anon2736434 said:

Okay you are correct the gov of thailand is paying for 50% of all the electricity used in thailand. Wow how generous can they be I am going to send egat a large box of chicken broth with a beautiful ribbon on it today ! Then tomorrow just to FEEL GOOD about being green I am going to go out and spend every last baht I have setting up a money losing solar system because I will sleep better at night knowing my bank account is empty but china is still building a new coal fired power plant every week to make up for my GREEN HAPPINESS.

For every high efficiency low emission new coal fired power station China is building they are shutting down many more older high polluting  inefficient stations.  The company I work for have shutdown many of their own steam and power generation capability and are buying it in.

Sometimes we only hear half the story.

[rvaviator]

I am going to be speaking to. A few vendors this coming week. I will check what they say. 
 
I am still wondering about the stainless steel requirements for the mounting frame. I have a colorbond roof. And. If I used stainless I would have a very quick and bad galvanic reaction and a big rust hole. 
 
Time will Tell All

You could use insulating paste at the joints between the roof and the frame to lower risk of galvanic action


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[tjo o tjim]

13 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Until you kill an electrician working on the overheads that he thought were isolated.

A (true) grid tie inverter is a current source only, and needs a voltage reference to operate. It also has dead-line detection which disconnects it to maintain safety for linemen. 

 

The microinverters that people talk about using for 300-600W applications are generally well vetted in this regard; you can’t parallel them if they do not operate properly in grid tie mode.

[shaemus]

12 hours ago, rvaviator said:

You could use insulating paste at the joints between the roof and the frame to lower risk of galvanic action


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

i have been to the main solar supplier who does installs in KK. He is only aware of Aluminium mounting frames and from the few hundred systems i have installed and thousands i have QA'd never seen stainless frames. The aluminuum L brackets come with a small piece of rubber to insulate and protect the roof sheet from galvanic reactions and add a little rubber buffer to sock up the movement of the frames.

 

Shaemus

[xtrnuno41]

16 hours ago, rvaviator said:

You could use insulating paste at the joints between the roof and the frame to lower risk of galvanic action


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Or just use plastic, nylon or even rubber sheets to separate