Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Thaidream]

22 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

y latest mail to the Embassy...

 

I listened with interest to your interview with Tommy from Pattaya News.

You say that if necessary you will go to Pattaya to speak to Immigration there. 

I live in Udon Thani and they still require Embassy Income letters & according to mates of mine so do the  Khon Kaen & Surin Offices. When we suggested what you advise it was a straight NO. No Embassy Letter No Extension.

If what you is saying is true, then you really need further dialogue with the head of Immigration and to urge them to instruct all offices that Bank Statements or even a Bank Letter is acceptable showing and verifying the 400/800k per year equating to 40/65k per month and this should be posted in all Imm offices and on the Immigration Website. Until then its all the same.

I make some suggestions which may assist.

(1) A Bank Letter similar to the 800k in a Thai Bank account stating that Mr Expat has shown deposits of at least 400/800k over the last 12 mths which equates to 40/65k per month. Or copies of our Thai Bank Statements showing the same.

(2) That we send said Letters or Statements to you as per income letter & you issue can then issue an Embassy letter saying that you have seen these deposits and can verify these deposits have been made into Mr Expats Thai account. Further proof if required (Statements or Bank Book can be shown to the Imm Officer.)

When and only when this is acceptable to Thai Immigration will be we able to breath easy again.

Sorry- this is not enough-  A  person who has sufficient income coming from abroad cannot transfer $65K/40K into a Thai Bank account in time to meet a full year of  'proof' if their extension is due August 2019 and onward.  Nor should they have to.

 

The Police Order is what sets up the criteria of needed documentation- not the Thai Imm site. The Police Order clearly indicates that Thai Imm will accept the Income Letter ALONG WITH any other documentation proving the amounts on the income letter.  I have shown-  Pension Letters;  a US Bank statement showing 65K coming into my account by direct deposit as well as US ATM cards  which I use in a Thai ATM to extract the money.  Thai Imm in ChaengWattana ACCEPTED  this as proof.  I have never had to even have a Thai Bank Account to show any proof.  It is highly impractical to  have to transfer 65K every month . I seriously doubt any Thai Bank would  issue a letter indicating anything of the sort.  This is the 21st Century- some of us use Debit Cards/Credit Cards to  get our monthly funds. No One needs a local account unless you use the In Bank method or the Combo.  That is why the Police Order allows  the monthly income proof method.  Don't believe me- read over the  first hand accounts from those in the CM area who have been asked to show added proof- CM Immigration has accepted exactly what I have indicated that I had to show.

 

If you are going to send an email to to the BE Embassy  to have them interface with Thai Imm- the added questions should be asked:

 

-Will you as Thai Imm still accept- a pension letter- letterhead stationary from a Government entity- or a Company showing  monthly income as proof of  meeting the Thai Imm requirement

-Will you as immigration still accept- a standard foreign bank statement showing direct deposits on a monthly basis into a foreign bank account . In addition will you also accept  foreign debit cards along with other income letters from foreign governments/companies as a source of getting the income into Thailand.

 

There may be more questions needed about the combination method and how this will work without the  Embassy Letter.

 

Unfortunately, the BE spokesperson does not understand that Thai Imm law of 1979 or the most recent Police Order and how in actuality each  Imm Region interprets the requirements.  As many posters have indicated- each Region can and does ask for added documentation.  This is allowed under the Immigration Act and also under the Police Order.

 

I would urge the BE to study the Imm Act of 1979 and the current Police Order- at least read the Police Order- it is not that difficult to understand/  I am not an expert on these things but I have done many retirement and marriage extensions over the years and I always study the Police Order before I do my next extension and if I need clarification I go directly to an Imm Officer  with a specific question.

 

Unfortunately- the BE does not understand how the Police Order applies and therefore cannot ask the right questions to get full clarification.

 

 

[I wonder]

52 minutes ago, TeaMonkey said:

Still the question of why it is only why it’s only the British Embassy taking this action as the others do not do anything different. 

Maybe it’s because they are the most reluctant to provide any services to UK ex-pats other than notifying the government when someone croaks so they can stop their state pension.

[Exploring Thailand]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It is highly impractical to  have to transfer 65K every month . I seriously doubt any Thai Bank would  issue a letter indicating anything of the sort.

And a huge hole in this suggestion is that you could simply send 65k to a Thai Bank, take it out, send it home, and then send it again next month. You would incur charges but for most people they would not be too much of a problem.

[Expattaff1308]

Good Points but although my extension date is in Aug 2019 I can show deposits over the last 12 mths however if as I think you are suggesting for example there are only 8 mths you can comply with at your next extension then it should be 520k which is the total you can show you have deposited divided by 8 = 65k per month

Edited October 13, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[WorriedNoodle]

1 hour ago, Exploring Thailand said:

This is from the BKK website.

 

 

This is a form given to me by an Immigration Officer in the BKK Immigration office.

This is for change of visa to NonImmO not extensions which come later and cost 1900THB.

[Exploring Thailand]

2 minutes ago, WorriedNoodle said:

This is for change of visa to NonImmO not extensions which come later and cost 1900THB.

Agreed, as I mentioned here.

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

And a huge hole in this suggestion is that you could simply send 65k to a Thai Bank, take it out, send it home, and then send it again next month. You would incur charges but for most people they would not be too much of a problem.

No different than putting 800k in and taking it out.  Most would not be bothered to put 65k in and out every month that's crazy.

[Kadilo]

Clearly Tommy Dee has opened up a hornets nest with his interview with the rep from the BE. I think he did it with the best of intentions and although he could of pinned her down a bit more it was a good kick off and got the ball rolling. 

 

I would suggest that now he has got to widen the invitation to the BE and Thai immigration on the same platform so it can be nipped in the bud and her comments can be either confirmed or denied by TI for all to hear. 

 

Cant be that difficult to arrange surely. 

[Expattaff1308]

7 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

And a huge hole in this suggestion is that you could simply send 65k to a Thai Bank, take it out, send it home, and then send it again next month. You would incur charges but for most people they would not be too much of a problem.

Well I think for most that equates to too much effort especially sending it home again be far easier to seek out the agent for the illegal extension stamp????

Edited October 13, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[giddyup]

If you are paying 65K into your Thai bank account every month but only spending 40K a month, it won't take long for that account to increase significantly. Or do they expect you to spend every satang of the 65K?

[jvs]

I am not a British  citicen but still i follow this closely because you never know what ones own embassy is going to do.

I know of two people who present a rental contract as proof of income and they do not own any property.Things like this create problems.

Another thing i see that maybe the Thai Imm. office will accept prove of 65000 baht per month being deposited into your account.If this is the case they would also have to accept that from anybody else?

[Expattaff1308]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

If you are paying 65K into your Thai bank account every month but only spending 40K a month, it won't take long for that account to increase significantly. Or do they expect you to spend every satang of the 65K?

I dont think they expect you to spend the lot, sometimes I spend more very often less depends on my needs.

[Exploring Thailand]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

No different than putting 800k in and taking it out.  Most would not be bothered to put 65k in and out every month that's crazy.

 

1 minute ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Well I think for most that equates to too much effort especially sending it home again be far easier to seek out the agent for the illegal extension stamp

Yes, I agree that for most people it's not worth the effort. But for anyone who is really struggling to meet the requirements, it might be. 

[Expattaff1308]

Quote

Another thing i see that maybe the Thai Imm. office will accept prove of 65000 baht per month being deposited into your account.If this is the case they would also have to accept that from anybody else?

Agree But they need to come out and say that then ensure all offices are aware of the new ruling.

[Jingthing]

As this is a new thread I'll repeat a key point from before, for those that haven't heard it.

 

Even if (a big if) the Brits actually get real confirmation that Thai immigration will change their enforcement policy for income based applications to not require embassy letters, people are not focusing on the extremely bad news in the pushed for solution from the British embassy. 

 

The status quo for income based applications is to "prove" a certain amount of income via embassy letter PLUS a demand for evidence of that income possibly but not definitely asked for.

 

That evidence could be many things. It could be a print of a government pension letter. It could be bank statements from abroad showing the claimed pension being paid into the out of Thailand account.

 

NEVER repeat NEVER has it been a requirement of Thai immigration to import the FULL amount of your claimed income into Thailand, every year, indeed as the Brits are pushing, done in MONTHLY increments.

For some this will be no big deal. But for many this will be extremely ONEROUS. 

 

As I've said on other threads when looking into retirement programs in the nations that offer them (most offer none) a key feature to look at is whether there is a requirement to annually import the claimed qualifying income, or not.

 

The status quo in Thailand has most definitely been NOT.

 

However, disturbingly, what the British kerfuffle is potentially stimulating (and yes I fully blame the British embassy for opening this CAN OF WORMS probably caused by their utter lack of understanding of these matters) is for Thailand to change to be one of the nations where that full IMPORTATION of claimed monthly INCOME is required.

That would be a HORRIBLE development and potentially bleed to more or all nationalities. 

Of course the fully funded and seasoned BANK ACCOUNT option remains as in the status quo. With that option there is no requirement to import at all in any given year, and certainly not the full amount annually.

 

Some very silly people have imagined a Thai immigration requirement to actually SPEND the full amounts annually (income or banked).

 

That is ridiculous and there is no nation in the world with a retirement program that requires that. But some do require full claimed income IMPORT. 

 

This could be the beginning of the process where Thailand becomes one of those. You do not want that! (Thanks a bunch, British embassy.)

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[sfokevin]

46 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

250 a month is not too many...about 3000 people affected then.

At 50 pound a head I’m shocked that the British Embassy is giving up the 150,000 pounds in revenue...

That buys a lot of gin!...

Edited October 13, 2018 by sfokevin

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Exploring Thailand said:

nd a huge hole in this suggestion is that you could simply send 65k to a Thai Bank, take it out, send it home, and then send it again next month. You would incur charges but for most people they would not be too much of a problem.

Indeed- and that  is why I seriously doubt the BE has asked the right questions and got the right answers. You have to completely understand the Police Order and what  it says and in practical terms what each IO is asking as 'evidence'.

 

  The Embassy has NOT done their homework- sorry to be blunt- but it was obvious from the questions and frankly speaking- neither has the interviewer- I know he tried to clarify things but in essence there are still as many questions as before. 

 

There are so may people missing the point- the reason the Police Order indicates the monthly income method is simply to provide an alternative to assist petitioners wanting to retire in Thailand or stay under the Marriage extension/ who may not want to put  large sums of money in a Thai bank or have available these amounts.  They never intended people to have to transfer 65K/40K per month and place it in a Thai Bank Account.  They have always accepted  other sources of proof- which can be provided in multiple cross indexing documents-  It's the whole concept of overlapping evidence that cross indexes to eliminate potential fraud,

 

 

[thaiguzzi]

Brewery.

Pissup.

Organize.

Cannot.

Welcome to the world of the British Foreign Office and the British Home Office.

And by extension of the above, the vast majority of British embassies.

Numpties the lot of them.

[smedly]

14 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I have shown-  Pension Letters;  a US Bank statement showing 65K coming into my account by direct deposit as well as US ATM cards  which I use in a Thai ATM to extract the money.  Thai Imm in ChaengWattana ACCEPTED  this as proof.

you also had a sworn Affidavit from the US Embassy which you did not mention making your whole post pointless, you omitted the most relevant point

 

Perhaps the UK Embassy should adopt the same process as the US and others then they don't have to verify anything, I am slightly puzzled as to why the didn't do this - maybe they are aware of something that would also make this redundant in the near future, who knows

[aonangkrabi]

1 hour ago, TeaMonkey said:

Still the question of why it is only why it’s only the British Embassy taking this action as the others do not do anything different. 

The embassy of the Netherlands has changed the procedure. Formerly I did not have to show any proof, I just declared my income and the letter of the Embassy stated that I "had declared". Now they verify. It is very simple: I just show the yearly income statements from my pension funds or I show my income tax declaration. It can be checked in a minute or so and the Embassy gets € 50 for the declaration. The Embassy makes some money this way. I don't understand why the UK Embassy can't do likewise.

I don't even have to go to the Embassy. Everything is handled by post.

[OJAS]

46 minutes ago, csmith said:

I don't understand why so much negativity towards the Brit.Embassy … they have made a decision, given reasons why they have made the decision and communicated that decision.

 

Well basically they have IMHO lied to us Brits by insinuating that we can, in future, simply dump 65k or 40k into a Thai bank account each month, and that will be that! The nonsensical BS which they have issued conveniently (from their viewpoint) omits to mention the basic fact that this will be utterly impossible without an Embassy letter of some sort! Is that really not sufficiently good reason for many of us to feel so negative towards them now?

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, smedly said:

maybe they are aware of something that would also make this redundant in the near future, who knows

Yes, people telling lies !

[Rally123]

1 hour ago, chickenslegs said:

Statements from the British Embassy are not worth anything.

 

Until we hear a statement from Thai Immigration

Statements from Thai Immigration are worth nothing also. Whatever they say is interpreted differently from office to office.

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, OJAS said:

the basic fact that this will be utterly impossible without an Embassy letter of some sort!

Why. If my Bangkok Bank statement/book shows 65k coming in on an FTT on 1st of every month, why is a letter from Consulate need, IF the Thai Immigration will accept that.

[Wanderlust]

30 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Sorry- this is not enough-  A  person who has sufficient income coming from abroad cannot transfer $65K/40K into a Thai Bank account in time to meet a full year of  'proof' if their extension is due August 2019 and onward.  Nor should they have to.

 

The Police Order is what sets up the criteria of needed documentation- not the Thai Imm site. The Police Order clearly indicates that Thai Imm will accept the Income Letter ALONG WITH any other documentation proving the amounts on the income letter.  I have shown-  Pension Letters;  a US Bank statement showing 65K coming into my account by direct deposit as well as US ATM cards  which I use in a Thai ATM to extract the money.  Thai Imm in ChaengWattana ACCEPTED  this as proof.  I have never had to even have a Thai Bank Account to show any proof.  It is highly impractical to  have to transfer 65K every month . I seriously doubt any Thai Bank would  issue a letter indicating anything of the sort.  This is the 21st Century- some of us use Debit Cards/Credit Cards to  get our monthly funds. No One needs a local account unless you use the In Bank method or the Combo.  That is why the Police Order allows  the monthly income proof method.  Don't believe me- read over the  first hand accounts from those in the CM area who have been asked to show added proof- CM Immigration has accepted exactly what I have indicated that I had to show.

 

If you are going to send an email to to the BE Embassy  to have them interface with Thai Imm- the added questions should be asked:

 

-Will you as Thai Imm still accept- a pension letter- letterhead stationary from a Government entity- or a Company showing  monthly income as proof of  meeting the Thai Imm requirement

-Will you as immigration still accept- a standard foreign bank statement showing direct deposits on a monthly basis into a foreign bank account . In addition will you also accept  foreign debit cards along with other income letters from foreign governments/companies as a source of getting the income into Thailand.

 

There may be more questions needed about the combination method and how this will work without the  Embassy Letter.

 

Unfortunately, the BE spokesperson does not understand that Thai Imm law of 1979 or the most recent Police Order and how in actuality each  Imm Region interprets the requirements.  As many posters have indicated- each Region can and does ask for added documentation.  This is allowed under the Immigration Act and also under the Police Order.

 

I would urge the BE to study the Imm Act of 1979 and the current Police Order- at least read the Police Order- it is not that difficult to understand/  I am not an expert on these things but I have done many retirement and marriage extensions over the years and I always study the Police Order before I do my next extension and if I need clarification I go directly to an Imm Officer  with a specific question.

 

Unfortunately- the BE does not understand how the Police Order applies and therefore cannot ask the right questions to get full clarification.

 

 

Any chance of a link or photo or copy/paste of this Police Order?

[AsiaCheese]

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

The spokesperson claimed that the income letters are not always required by Thai immigration and that expats can simply show a copy of their bank statements when submitting their application.

 

However, anyone who has ever applied for a marriage or retirement extension in Thailand will know that is not the case and that the income certification letter has to date been a requirement.

 

That's from the BS department. I've gone through the process some 10 times, and it was always EITHER monthly income (as in: certified pension) OR 800k in the bank account 3 months previous (my choice). IMHO, nothing whatsoever has changed as far as that is concerned and the spokesperson is right.

 

There have been rumours (oh - those...) of people claiming that an account that doesn't show any movements (as in regular withdrawals/credits) has been regarded as suspicious by Immigration - my fixed deposit account which has only just generated some interest over the years (which I regularly withdrew and brough to a nice restaurant) has always been accepted by Immigration. For good reasons, me thinks: what they want to see is whether you're on the brink of becoming a problem for (Thai) social security or whether your cushion is comfortable.

Edited October 13, 2018 by AsiaCheese

[OJAS]

37 minutes ago, Thailand said:

If immigration confirms that then there is no problem. Until there is a statement from immigration the confusion will continue.

A statement which IMHO will never be forthcoming in a million years. As a result Brit retirees will almost certainly be forced to relocate back to the UK in their droves unless they have a Thai wife and can meet the existing financial requirements for a marriage extension.

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Well I think for most that equates to too much effort especially sending it home again be far easier to seek out the agent for the illegal extension stamp????

The point is you should NOT have to do any of this- if you have the income every month- you don't need to send it to any other account than the one you use and why would you need an agent.

This is the 21st Century- every payment made that is legal comes with some type of identification

-The British Government Pension  has documentation

-A British  Company provides a pension- documented

-You own a house in London and you get rental income. Rental agreement and Direct Deposit to you UK Account.

 

Many people have plenty of income deposited  into their Bank Account in the UK or the Us or anywhere- They follow their accounts/Debits and credits via  their On Line Banking system- hardly anyone needs to go into a bank.

 

You can take  several thousands out of your UK Bank or US Bank via ATM machines in Thailand without ever entering any bank anywhere-  The documentation is so easy- your bank shows your balance- shows what ATM (location even)- you have the Bank monthly statement; you have the ATM cards- you even have the ATM receipts in Thailand.   I recently purchase a car in Bangkok this way- I never entered a bank- 

 

While this method may cost  more in FEES- I like it better as I have complete control and per the Police Order- I can show all this documentation to prove anything they ask.

The BE suggestion of physically transferring money each month to a Thai Bank account is absurd- and completely complicates the picture.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, AsiaCheese said:

 

That's from the BS department. I've gone through the process some 10 times, and it was always EITHER monthly income (as in: certified pension) OR 800k in the bank account 3 months previous. IMHO, nothing whatsoever has changed as far as that is concerned and the spokesperson is right.

 

There have been rumours (oh - those...) of people claiming that an account that doesn't show any movements (as in regular withdrawals/credits) has been regarded as suspicious by Immigration - my fixed deposit account which has only just generated some interest over the years (which I've regularly withdrew and brough to a nice restaurant) has always been accepted by Immigration. For good reasons, me thinks: what they want to see is whether you're on the brink of becoming a problem for (Thai) social security or whether your cushion is comfortable.

Not getting your point here.

Yes.

Fully funded and seasoned bank account applications. No embassy letter needed.

Income based applications (including combinations). Embassy letter needed.

The Brits say no more letters, are making up fictions (or are just totally IGNORANT) that income based applications have been accepted in the past without income letters, and are now promoting an EXTREMELY ONEROUS solution for income based applications without embassy letter.

Full annual import of claimed income, done monthly. Something that has NEVER been required before for income based applications. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[OJAS]

7 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Why. If my Bangkok Bank statement/book shows 65k coming in on an FTT on 1st of every month, why is a letter from Consulate need, IF the Thai Immigration will accept that.

Because rules is rules!