Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[smedly]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I am no snitch..

There are certain things were those rules don't apply, child abuse being one of them

[jimn]

32 minutes ago, rtco said:

I have just renewed my Non Imm 'O' (Marriage Visa) and only showed +400,000 THB in my account + a letter from my Bank confirming that I had this amount in my account 5 days prior to submission + I provided copies of the relevant pages in my Bank Book.

Sorry irrelevant post. You are another one who does not understand the issue

[soalbundy]

The way I see Thai IO is that they want it nice and easy, following the law with the least amount of effort, it's part of the Thai mentality, more show than substance. The letter does this nicely, quick and easy. No way are Thai officers going to plow through reams of proofs, in many different languages, translated in to Thai, (that will cost) it just isn't viable, it will mean more officers bigger offices, more stress,more expense and disruption but most of all, the bogey man of responsibility, the onus is on the IO to get it right. OK, they could say show me an average of 65,000 in a Thai bank book, I could do that, 3 days of pulling 25,000 a day each month from the ATM and putting it into my Thai account, now the officer has to go through the bank book and count it, oh here are the ATM slips. No, it's the letter, end of.

[mfd101]

1 minute ago, Russell17au said:

That is correct and all that is needed is for the British Embassy to change over to the same system and use a Stat Dec system

Agreed. This has already been commented on several times on other threads. Brits should be putting this argument STRONGLY to their Embassy.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, smedly said:

I would not hesitate to bring that to the attention of the authorities 

 

and the rest of your post was spot on

I agree, If you are not willing to bring it to the authorities -- then in my book you are an accessory through concealment of the knowledge of criminal acts being perpetrated. (depends on the jurisdiction on whether it is illegal or just morally reprehensible). 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

"Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats". How so?

 

I read the header above and then I got myself a cup of tea and listened, with great interest the 18 minute interview with Lian Galloway from the British Embassy.

 

At the end of that interview, (and my cup of tea) I am quite satisfied that there is no confusion at all. I had thought, all along that this all a 'storm in a teacup' and that those of us who can legitimately show that we have sufficient income through bank deposits and pension letters etc, do not have a problem at all.

 

There will, I'm sure be a few hiccups whilst all the Immigration offices around the country adjust to this situation, but once things settle down it will be business as usual.

 

They only thing I'm confused about is why the O/P chose such a negative heading for this article.

 

P. S. Those who have made negative contributions to this thread without listening to the interview, should rewind and go listen.

 

 

 

 

You don't get it.

The status quo is that for income based applications full import (monthly or whatever) of full claimed income has NEVER been required.

The British embassy is suggesting a very negative change in that policy in lieu of embassy letters.

You can enjoy your smug cuppas all you like, but the British embassy has opened a CAN OF WORMS. 

[Exploring Thailand]

6 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I am no snitch..

Tell that to the children and their parents. Grow a set and report him.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Moonlover said:

P. S. Those who have made negative contributions to this thread without listening to the interview, should rewind and go listen.

I listened to the interview and  as a long term expat in Thailand know that the  Embassy staffer knows little about Thai Immigration policy. They don't want to provide the letter- their business but to suggest that the only way to use the monthly income method is by sending money monthly to a Thai bank shows a complete lack of understand the Thai Police Order and the documentation that has been accepted in the past/    The Police Order is on the TV website- you might want to read it.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I listened to the interview and  as a long term expat in Thailand know that the  Embassy staffer knows little about Thai Immigration policy. They don't want to provide the letter- their business but to suggest that the only way to use the monthly income method is by sending money monthly to a Thai bank shows a complete lack of understand the Thai Police Order and the documentation that has been accepted in the past/    The Police Order is on the TV website- you might want to read it.

That was my take as well. The lady being interviewed may have been sincere enough for whatever that's worth but it was crystal clear that she had huge knowledge gaps about the Thai immigration situation for her (and all) nationals. As I said before I don't really expect our embassy staff to be great experts on that. However that lack of knowledge becomes a big issue now that there will be an end to the British letters and a British push to change Thai immigration policy based on the British embassy's clearly limited understanding of the consequences. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[Old Croc]

24 minutes ago, Runamile said:

I think someone didn't read what I said. The point is that this is all about holding money in the soft currency of a politically unstable country. Who remotely in their right mind would want to do that? And who would do it when the immigration rules do not state 65K Baht into a Thai Bank but only ever looked at global income. The current discussion is of entries into a Thai bank account only because Thai Immigration have said, seemingly informally, that they can't cope with reading non-Thai, non-Baht bank statements. Their rules make no such demand, and other countries' nationals will be able to continue as ever they did before on the basis of global income.

There are large numbers of us here who are of sufficiently "right mind" to have accumulated enough funds to meet the criteria for retirement here, and are happy to lodge it in a local bank. My money has only increased in value, in comparison to my home country, in the years I've banked it here, and it doubles as my health self insurance.

Who in their "right mind" would think they could get away with lying for ever about how much money they actually have, as Thailand starts to do more checking on the dodgy people living within their borders?

[bikerbri]

I don’t see what the problem is. My bank( Kasikorn ) automatically send me a email PDF statement of my account showing out goings and income from my U.K. pension providers. The only problem I can see when I go to immigration for my renewal is the acceptance of email copy statements from my bank,We all know how the Thais love signatures on documents. This being the case I have asked my bank to give me a signed letter verifying that the highlighted income on the twelve statements they sent me is accurate and true. This letter should cost no more than 100 Baht. The British embassy letter cost 2,500 Baht plus 100 Baht for EMS delivery. I love the idea and the savings it gives me.

[jimn]

11 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

"Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats". How so?

 

I read the header above and then I got myself a cup of tea and listened, with great interest the 18 minute interview with Lian Galloway from the British Embassy.

 

At the end of that interview, (and my cup of tea) I am quite satisfied that there is no confusion at all. I had thought, all along that this all a 'storm in a teacup' and that those of us who can legitimately show that we have sufficient income through bank deposits and pension letters etc, do not have a problem at all.

 

There will, I'm sure be a few hiccups whilst all the Immigration offices around the country adjust to this situation, but once things settle down it will be business as usual.

 

They only thing I'm confused about is why the O/P chose such a negative heading for this article.

 

P. S. Those who have made negative contributions to this thread without listening to the interview, should rewind and go listen.

 

 

 

 

I too listened to the full 18 minutes and I am not confused. I am just totally bemused at the ignorance of the BE spokes lady on how it works in really. No Immigration Office anywhere in Thailand accepts the 65,000 THB income method without the income letter from the BE. It is complete ignorance for her to assume that Thai Immigration will begin to accept Thai or Foreign bank statements as proof. Its not going to happen without a complete overhaul. The BE cannot dictate to Thai Immigration what they can accept.

[Kerryd]

Just now, jimn said:

I too listened to the full 18 minutes and I am not confused. I am just totally bemused at the ignorance of the BE spokes lady on how it works in really. No Immigration Office anywhere in Thailand accepts the 65,000 THB income method without the income letter from the BE. It is complete ignorance for her to assume that Thai Immigration will begin to accept Thai or Foreign bank statements as proof. Its not going to happen without a complete overhaul. The BE cannot dictate to Thai Immigration what they can accept.

You'd think the person doing the interview would have known that as well and brought the matter up.

 

Would have and should have.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The reasonably solution is to have the 90 day reports require a copy of your bank book showing continuing deposits from a foreign source.

 

Some people do lump sum transfers once or twice a year to save on transfer costs, or for other reasons.

 

You're trying to force everyone into a monthly or quarterly package, when all Immigration wants is proof ONCE a year.

 

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, bikerbri said:

I don’t see what the problem is. My bank( Kasikorn ) automatically send me a email PDF statement of my account showing out goings and income from my U.K. pension providers. The only problem I can see when I go to immigration for my renewal is the acceptance of email copy statements from my bank,We all know how the Thais love signatures on documents. This being the case I have asked my bank to give me a signed letter verifying that the highlighted income on the twelve statements they sent me is accurate and true. This letter should cost no more than 100 Baht. The British embassy letter cost 2,500 Baht plus 100 Baht for EMS delivery. I love the idea and the savings it gives me.

Immigration wont accept bank statements or a bank letter for proof of income, only for proof of the 800k deposit.

[meechai]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

NEVER repeat NEVER has it been a requirement of Thai immigration to import the FULL amount of your claimed income into Thailand, every year, indeed as the Brits are pushing,
For some this will be no big deal. But for many this will be extremely ONEROUS. 

 

 

That would be a HORRIBLE development and potentially bleed to more or all nationalities.

Folks of all nationalities using this loophole to reside in Thailand should take this as a wake up call.

 

End is near...It was always a BS loophole & Thai Imm now know it. All the skint pats...no health insurance has taken its toll. Now you will not have to put "the FULL amount" of your income in Thai Banks but yes...put the 400k/800k like you always should have....Or get out

 

Know whats next?

 

Next is show full health coverage or lock up your 400/800k as a yearly retainer while you reside in Thailand

Don't believe it? Watch

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by meechai

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, meechai said:

Folks of all nationalities using this loophole to reside in Thailand should take this as a wake up call.

 

End is near...It was always a BS loophole & Thai Imm now know it. All the skint pats...no health insurance has taken its toll. Now you will put the 400k/800k like you always should have....Or get out

 

Know whats next?

 

Next is show full health coverage or lock up your 400/800k as a yearly retainer while you reside in Thailand

Don't believe it? Watch

 

 

What loophole?

There is no loophole.

Thai immigration knows their status quo policy. 

No requirement for full annual import of claimed income.

That isn't news to them. That's their policy!

Now the Brits are proposing an extremely negative change in that policy. 

Sure policies can change and change in negative ways.

But please let's wait for such changes to actually be changed by the THAIS, not the BRITS!

[kensisaket]

Obviously they know not everyone is honest when applying for those income letters. They've let that pass for a long time.  Whoever labeled the new head of Immigration as "Big Joke" is now finding out that he is having the last laugh.  Providing supporting documentation of income should not be a concern provided you actually have the required amount.  Pretty much everyone on here would not lay proof of income on a Thai bank official (if they were in Thai Immigration's shoes) knowing the level of corruption rampant in every institution nationwide.  Making copies of your bank book would probably work IF anyone would trust handing your bank account number over to immigration employees.  It's going to be interesting to see where this ends up.

 

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, bikerbri said:

don’t see what the problem is. My bank( Kasikorn ) automatically send me a email PDF statement of my account showing out goings and income from my U.K. pension providers. The only problem I can see when I go to immigration for my renewal is the acceptance of email copy statements from my bank,We all know how the Thais love signatures on documents. This being the case I have asked my bank to give me a signed letter verifying that the highlighted income on the twelve statements they sent me is accurate and true. This letter should cost no more than 100 Baht. The British embassy letter cost 2,500 Baht plus 100 Baht for EMS delivery. I love the idea and the savings it gives me.

I am glad your bank allows direct deposits to  Thailand. My  pension providers and there are 4 of them do NOT do foreign  direct deposits  My point being there are many ways to prove income- and the Police Order indicates  using the income method does not need be sent to a Thai bank. You only need to be able to access it and prove the source amount That's what a debit card is for if you want to pay the fees.

 

The BE Embassy can do what they want but their lack of understand of the Thai Imm system and their inability to communicate effectively with the Thai authorities is what has led to this uproar. 

[55Jay]

Just now, White Tiger said:

I reckon you're right. The British Embassy missed a trick here. Had they continued to issue the letters on exactly the same basis as before the onus would have been on Thai immigration offices to start declining them. If immigration offices started rejecting them then we expats would be venting our anger at Thai immigration, not at the British Embassy. And it would be a clear and transparent Thai policy change that we were angry about.

 

As things stand how likely is it that individual immigration offices, or officers working there, would suddenly change their working practices and reject a time honoured British Embassy letter? Highly unlikely I'd say. It would need a high level policy decision from someone senior in Bangkok that was sent out to all offices. Immigration officers who have been in the job "man & boy" and accepting these letters all the time, are not going to stop accepting them overnight unless a very very big cheese in Thai immigration tells them to. 

 

There has been no public statement of a change in policy on these letters from Thai immigration. As far as they are concerned it is business as usual. It seems someone from Thai immigration may have made an off the cuff remark, about verifying income, over an after dinner brandy with someone from the British Embassy back in May. That was hardly a Thai policy change.

 

But, instead of being common sense about it, I suspect the person involved from the British Embassy went into "pedant mode" and this British Embassy policy change is the unfortunate and ill thought out result. This doesn't have to have been at a senior level, mid or junior level management at the Embassy could easily have been enjoying that after dinner brandy with someone from immigration and caused a knee jerk over reaction from the Embassy.  Just can't get the staff these days.

 

If he has anything about him the British Ambassador will now step in and clean up the mess. 

 

That's my take on this.

I thought the same thing.  An over-reaction to an inquiry from Immigration.   Other Embassies seemed to have discussed it rationally and calibrated an unrealistic expectation.  Embassies don't have access to some all knowing, integrated database to achieve this kind of invasive, on demand verification.  Well, there might be, but an Admin flunkee at an Embassy in SE Asia isn't going to have access to it, especially not for some random, low level requirement by Thai Immigration.

 

The Thais get it.  It's a bit of a charade.  The 3rd/Developing world loves paper and lots of official looking stamps but the Thais aren't foolish enough to take on this 800lb paper tiger.

 

[hakancnx]

One issue not mentioned is the tax. 

 

I belive that most income letters signed by the embassy's / consulates

have the income before tax. And this is accepted by the immigration. 

 

If there will be a new rule of proving bank statements, the tax is probably withdrawn already.

 

So that could mean up to 25 % reduced funds. This apply at least for my country, Sweden. 

 

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

People seem to be forgetting why the BE is stopping these letters.

The Thai government has said that the BE must verify that the income the applicant is claiming is actually true. The BE MUST verify it.

This is impossible for the BE to comply with. If the Thai authorities prove that an applicant has lied, yet, they still have the BE letter certifying that the false statement is true, then, the BE could be legally liable.

 

Two obvious solutions.

1. BE goes the way of other embassy's. Just certifying that the person is who they claim to be and that they have witnessed the signature. If the Thai authorities want to accept this as proof, then great.

 

2. Deposit the 65k/40k per month and ask the Thai authorities to accept the bank letter as proof, as they already do with the 800k/400k method.

[meechai]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What loophole?

There is no loophole.

 

It was 100% a loophole...You know it...I know it & Now Thai IMM knows it

 

If you cant show  in Thailand accessible 800K as a single retired expat...They know you cant show it in an emergency

Thailand stuck on the hook for too many in the past now they  are awake

 

This loophole was like saying...Oh I have lots of money...Just not on me 555

 

Yeah took awhile but jig is up

Edited October 13, 2018 by meechai

[bikerbri]

9 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Immigration wont accept bank statements or a bank letter for proof of income, only for proof of the 800k deposit.

That’s not what the British Embassy said. What we need is clarification from the Thai immigration.

[meechai]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But please let's wait for such changes to actually be changed by the THAIS, not the BRITS!

Brits have just agreed with the Thai's is all

 

Show the $$

 

Not the promise it is elsewhere

[stephenterry]

For those retired Brits relying on income and who are still completing self assessment forms for the UK IR using an accountant, I suggest you copy the initial personal details page and relevant pension income page to 'prove' income source(s) and annual gross income. In the past this has been accepted by the Embassy as proof of income.

 

If this income letter is withdrawn after 15th December 2018, the same documentation plus copies of UK bank statements highlighting the pension payments could be accepted by Immigration (albeit short of tax deducted at source, which could cause a shortfall). Also it would be prudent to produce Thai bank statements showing transfers in on a regular basis.

The Immigration acceptance remains to be seen, however, and it would be prudent to check with a visa agency just what is acceptable or not.

 

I suspect that many Brits that do not have 800k stacked in a Thai bank account will resort to paying visa agents, and while that could be vetoed by Big Joke, I surmise economic forces could prevail - don't hold your breath on that, and be prepared to seek alternatives, e.g. obtaining a notary letter from a bona-fide registered Thai legal firm to see if Immigration accept that alternative. 

 

Finally, I will put in writing my absolute disgust at how the UK British Embassy in Thailand is treating their retired pensioners which will be sent to the Embassy and UK government pension office next week. I hope all those Brits affected will do the same, and also those who have 800k in a Thai bank account.

Thank you for reading.

 

[55Jay]

Just now, Joe Mcseismic said:

People seem to be forgetting why the BE is stopping these letters.

The Thai government has said that the BE must verify that the income the applicant is claiming is actually true. The BE MUST verify it.

This is impossible for the BE to comply with. If the Thai authorities prove that an applicant has lied, yet, they still have the BE letter certifying that the false statement is true, then, the BE could be legally liable.

 

Two obvious solutions.

1. BE goes the way of other embassy's. Just certifying that the person is who they claim to be and that they have witnessed the signature. If the Thai authorities want to accept this as proof, then great.

 

2. Deposit the 65k/40k per month and ask the Thai authorities to accept the bank letter as proof, as they already do with the 800k/400k method.

The Thais do indeed accept #1.  Have for a long time and still do now. 

 

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, meechai said:

Folks of all nationalities using this loophole to reside in Thailand should take this as a wake up call.

 

End is near...It was always a BS loophole & Thai Imm now know it. All the skint pats...no health insurance has taken its toll. Now you will put the 400k/800k like you always should have....Or get out

 

Know whats next?

 

Next is show full health coverage or lock up your 400/800k as a yearly retainer while you reside in Thailand

Don't believe it? Watch

 

 

What loophole ??? its 800k deposit or the equivalent to 800k in monthly income. Its the same amount of money for deposit or income. You can bring in 800k then send it home again if you like. Do you have an official source for your wild speculation about health coverage and yearly retainers

[FigaroLucowski]

Big Joke, Big confusion, Big Joke, Big ambition, Big Ego, Big Joke look Big, step on heads of lowly farang and make him squirm, You not forget Big Joke for long time, Farang is only cockroach to Big Joke.

[Jingthing]

Just now, meechai said:

Brits have just agreed with the Thai's is all

 

Show the $$

 

Not the promise it is elsewhere

You are wrong. The Thais have NEVER required full import of claimed income into Thailand annually. 

The other option which is not under discussion here, the bank account option, not the income options, stands as is and yes that application is purely about showing the money IN THAILAND. Also not showing a required level of imports.

Don't make stuff up and don't conflate (as has the British embassy) the two types of applications.