Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Why. If my Bangkok Bank statement/book shows 65k coming in on an FTT on 1st of every month, why is a letter from Consulate need, IF the Thai Immigration will accept that.

"IF the Thai Immigration will accept that."

 

At the moment, they won't - even though the brit. embassy's representative on the Pattaya radio interview pretended otherwise....

Edited October 13, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[LomSak27]

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

The reason the British Embassy will stop issuing the income letter is because Thai immigration has said it expects the embassy to verify all sources of income of British Nationals requesting an income letter, as first reported by Thaivisa earlier this week.

That is impossible for the British Embassy let alone any Embassy to do. If Thai Immigration insists on that from every country, count on 800k in an account for a retirement, and letters from Embassies are a moot point.

 

That said, it should be announced in a more formal manner than this fumble farting attempt.

[55Jay]

20 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

So basically the US Embassy is not verifying it... and thus are not fulfilling the requirement for the Thai government.  It would not be valid for the purposes stated by the Thai government.

No, they don't.  They don't claim to.  Several other Embassies mentioned here don't either.

 

Thai Immigration is aware of that, have accepted it all along and from the looks of it, still do. 

[theoldgit]

Do you think the Consulate should go question Mr J Bloggs who rents my UK house from me, and ask him to give sworn evidence that he pays me £XXX per month?

No, and I’ve never suggested they should.

[zydeco]

If additional documentation is required, Thai Immigration will be completely befuddled.  I'm sure they can read my social security FFT easily enough.  But they will have no idea what to do with my annuity documents.  That is why the disruption of this process is so catastrophic.  If you think the waiting time at Chaeng Wattana is long now, wait until people start throwing up piles of documents that Thai Immigration doesn't understand.  Some people here have even said they are going in with ATM receipts.  This will be a nightmare.  Thai Immigration will not stand for it.

[Rally123]

I'm mystified at all the bitching against the UK embassy. Yous come half way around the world without a financial back up plan if plan A doesn't work. What would all yous be doing if you got yourselves in a position, such as medical treatment, whereby you need 400,000 Baht in a hurry? Would you go to the embassy and ask them for a loan to help you out? On being told they can't assist would you they start bitch that they're not doing their job? 

Rules change over time and anyone with any sense who hasn't got a Plan B deserves the fallout. Do what you'd do in a medical emergency. Sell your car. Sell your house. Sell the missus gold. Why blame the embassy? Oh because that's the easy option.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

Because the others do not do verification letters!  just pay in 65k a month into your Thai account?  

Others do do verification, cheaper and don't make waves.

[zydeco]

5 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

I'm mystified at all the bitching against the UK embassy. Yous come half way around the world without a financial back up plan if plan A doesn't work. What would all yous be doing if you got yourselves in a position, such as medical treatment, whereby you need 400,000 Baht in a hurry? Would you go to the embassy and ask them for a loan to help you out? On being told they can't assist would you they start bitch that they're not doing their job? 

Rules change over time and anyone with any sense who hasn't got a Plan B deserves the fallout. Do what you'd do in a medical emergency. Sell your car. Sell your house. Sell the missus gold. Why blame the embassy? Oh because that's the easy option.

You constantly volunteered to be the classroom monitor back in primary school, didn't you.

[smedly]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The point is you should NOT have to do any of this- if you have the income every month- you don't need to send it to any other account than the one you use and why would you need an agent.

This is the 21st Century- every payment made that is legal comes with some type of identification

-The British Government Pension  has documentation

-A British  Company provides a pension- documented

-You own a house in London and you get rental income. Rental agreement and Direct Deposit to you UK Account.

I can all easily be falsified, give you a clue

 

You have 2 UK bank accounts, all you need to do is transfer money between them or have a mate do same, you could get away with not having any income at all - just moving the same money around for free.

 

I honestly believe to whole income verification/Affidavit process has been flawed for years and is abused by many.

 

Quite what Thailand is going to introduce going forward is anyones guess but it is long overdue,

 

There are many on here that are complaining because they have not abused the system and have always done what was legally required of them.

 

Income into a Thai bank can be abused, Lump sum can be abused, all of it can be abused it you have a will to do so, there are agents backhanders etc etc, one thing I do believe is that change is coming and the BE has just given a heads up, so be prepared.  

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, NCC1701A said:

perhaps a large group of UK expats (100 or so) can show up at the main immigration office at the same time demanding clarification now so you can start your preparations to leave Thailand. Tell them you speak for a quarter million other expats who need to leave due to these requirements which cannot be met without a letter from the UK embassy. 

 

At least they can just smile and start back peddling in private.       

 

So how come the Brit Embassy processes - according to the highly capable young lady on the other end of the phone - only some 3000 retirement extension letters per year?

[55Jay]

1 minute ago, zydeco said:

If additional documentation is required, Thai Immigration will be completely befuddled.  I'm sure they can read my social security FFT easily enough.  But they will have no idea what to do with my annuity documents.  That is why the disruption of this process is so catastrophic.  If you think the waiting time at Chaeng Wattana is long now, wait until people start throwing up piles of documents that Thai Immigration doesn't understand.  Some people here have even said they are going in with ATM receipts.  This will be a nightmare.  Thai Immigration will not stand for it.

Precisely!  

 

Someone at Thai Immigration stirred the pot several months ago.  Seems that most embassies applied a steady hand on the helm and carried on smartly.

 

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

I'm mystified at all the bitching against the UK embassy. Yous come half way around the world without a financial back up plan if plan A doesn't work. What would all yous be doing if you got yourselves in a position, such as medical treatment, whereby you need 400,000 Baht in a hurry? Would you go to the embassy and ask them for a loan to help you out? On being told they can't assist would you they start bitch that they're not doing their job? 

Rules change over time and anyone with any sense who hasn't got a Plan B deserves the fallout. Do what you'd do in a medical emergency. Sell your car. Sell your house. Sell the missus gold. Why blame the embassy? Oh because that's the easy option.

It's not a mystery. The British embassy has decided to not serve their nationals as other embassies do. Providing the REQUIRED income letter for income based application purposes. They make a lot of excuses but if they were really true, NO embassy could be issuing the letters. 

[Runamile]

Sadly, Tommy missed tackling the critical matter. Yes, the 800,000 Baht paid into a Thai bank account was always a possibility. However, there has been no stipulation that the 65,000 Baht a month be held in a Thai Bank. It has been a reference to global income received into whatever account. That is a big difference in that if it is true that 65,000Baht monthly must be held in a Thai Bank account for the Thai authorities to read the bank statements, that demands that Brits have a Thai bank account. That is a less than happy thought for many, given that the Baht is a soft currency in a politically unstable country (essentially the same arguments as against the 800,000 Baht lodged). Additionally, supposing that 65,000 a month simply doesn't correspond in any way with one's monthly expenditures?

[Noreya]

I like to share my direct experience that I was living with my partner (who RIP) in Thailand for 12 years (we did not marriage). He is senior American expat and I had been accompanied him to get a Guarantee letter for income from US embassy once a year for 12 years (2003-2015). At first time when we went to US embassy we were asking the embassy to CERTIFIED his Social Security Statement (Original Annual Statement Report). The embassy informed that they are not allow to certified it. But we said Thai immigration has expects the embassy to verify all sources of income. Anyway we had learned that US embassy issue A Grantee Letter to verify all sources of income for expat American in Thailand to submit to Thai Immigration. We did this procedure for only 30 minutes at the embassy and pay fee (I forgot how much). He passed in 2015 and I buried him in Protestant Cemetery in Bangkok. 

[Luckysilk]

2 minutes ago, smedly said:

I can all easily be falsified, give you a clue

 

You have 2 UK bank accounts, all you need to do is transfer money between them or have a mate do same, you could get away with not having any income at all - just moving the same money around for free.

 

I honestly believe to whole income verification/Affidavit process has been flawed for years and is abused by many.

 

Quite what Thailand is going to introduce going forward is anyones guess but it is long overdue,

 

There are many on here that are complaining because they have not abused the system and have always done what was legally required of them.

 

Income into a Thai bank can be abused, Lump sum can be abused, all of it can be abused it you have a will to do so, there are agents backhanders etc etc, one thing I do believe is that change is coming and the BE has just given a heads up, so be prepared.  

Well said 

 

I agree change is coming and those that sit and blame the Embassy are wasting time, the Thai Immigration are the folks that are demanding scrutiny.

 

I for one am pleased an Embassy is taking a firm approach on what could be potentially a fraudulent loophole & I hope others follow.

 

[White Tiger]

55 minutes ago, PAWNEESE said:

The problem we have with the British Embassy is they have said   ..."You ( Thai Immigration ) want us to alter our procedures .. we wont. Because you asked we are now withdrawing ALL cooperation and from now on not help our citizens at all in this matter  ... British citizens well being not our problem .. we are only the British Embassy" "We could try and get Thai Immigration to say bank statement acceptable but we cant be bothered. Go ask/sort yourselves .. we have cocktail parties and expenses form to fill in"

 

They could carry on as before .. let Thailand Imm refuse to accept the letters not say .. you want us to change the way we do it. We are now gonna stamp our feet, throw a girly fit and not play any more.

I reckon you're right. The British Embassy missed a trick here. Had they continued to issue the letters on exactly the same basis as before the onus would have been on Thai immigration offices to start declining them. If immigration offices started rejecting them then we expats would be venting our anger at Thai immigration, not at the British Embassy. And it would be a clear and transparent Thai policy change that we were angry about.

 

As things stand how likely is it that individual immigration offices, or officers working there, would suddenly change their working practices and reject a time honoured British Embassy letter? Highly unlikely I'd say. It would need a high level policy decision from someone senior in Bangkok that was sent out to all offices. Immigration officers who have been in the job "man & boy" and accepting these letters all the time, are not going to stop accepting them overnight unless a very very big cheese in Thai immigration tells them to. 

 

There has been no public statement of a change in policy on these letters from Thai immigration. As far as they are concerned it is business as usual. It seems someone from Thai immigration may have made an off the cuff remark, about verifying income, over an after dinner brandy with someone from the British Embassy back in May. That was hardly a Thai policy change.

 

But, instead of being common sense about it, I suspect the person involved from the British Embassy went into "pedant mode" and this British Embassy policy change is the unfortunate and ill thought out result. This doesn't have to have been at a senior level, mid or junior level management at the Embassy could easily have been enjoying that after dinner brandy with someone from immigration and caused a knee jerk over reaction from the Embassy.  Just can't get the staff these days.

 

If he has anything about him the British Ambassador will now step in and clean up the mess. 

 

That's my take on this.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

It depends on the legislation of the country.  Most western countries privacy and data laws do not allow sharing of information between departments with the exception of things like security.  I suspect you would have to go (as an individual) to the department / agency responsible for those pensions.  The Embassy itself would not be able to verify it, only certify that you as an individual have sworn in some sort of affidavit that it is true under penalty of falsifying documents.

 

You really DO NOT want those privacy laws removed or pretty well all your information is accessible to any government employee without a warrant.

Surely they should believe an original letter from their own pension people ? I remember once getting rejected at the German embassy because I had brought along a copy instead of the original even though I could show a bank statement with that amount going in, I had to take an 8 hour train journey back home to return with the original, then no problem.

[Exploring Thailand]

19 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

I'm mystified at all the bitching against the UK embassy.

My beef with them is simply that they have been incompetent. They had a meeting in May; they've announced new measures, yet they don't really understand what is happening on the ground.

 

They don't know what documentation Thai Immigration requires British citizens to produce when they apply for a visa. They should know that. And they certainly should know that before deciding to stop issuing one of the most important of those documents.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Exploring Thailand

[zydeco]

5 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Precisely!  

 

Someone at Thai Immigration stirred the pot several months ago.  Seems that most embassies applied a steady hand on the helm and carried on smartly.

 

And imagine even further chaos than the additional documentation you carry.  If everyone is now required to bring a bank letter as part of the documentation, instead of just the embassy letter, that means you must get the bank letter ON THE SAME DAY you go to immigration for your extension.  Maybe there is a bank branch there, probably is.  But that means spending the morning waiting in line at the bank for the bank letter and then EVERYBODY goes into immigration (again with all the additional documentation) in the afternoon.  And also remember Thai immigration must stay until everyone with a number is served. They're going to be real happy staying at work every night until 10 pm.

[Kerryd]

Someone should post the link to that Petition that was made regarding this matter.

 

Signing that will do more good than whining and moaning on TV will.

[bkkcanuck8]

3 minutes ago, Runamile said:

Sadly, Tommy missed tackling the critical matter. Yes, the 800,000 Baht paid into a Thai bank account was always a possibility. However, there has been no stipulation that the 65,000 Baht a month be held in a Thai Bank. It has been a reference to global income received into whatever account. That is a big difference in that if it is true that 65,000Baht monthly must be held in a Thai Bank account for the Thai authorities to read the bank statements, that demands that Brits have a Thai bank account. That is a less than happy thought for many, given that the Baht is a soft currency in a politically unstable country (essentially the same arguments as against the 800,000 Baht lodged). Additionally, supposing that 65,000 a month simply doesn't correspond in any way with one's monthly expenditures?

The requirement is for people to have a pension income of 65,000 a month or have a lump sum available of 800,000.  If you have income of 65,000 a month and your expenditures are only 30,000 a month... then in a few years - you would have enough in the bank to go the lump sum approach and not worry about showing monthly income.  The purpose would be served either way.  If you only have 30,000 in income a month and somehow have been pretending it is more - you just were not properly meeting requirements in the first place (you as in general terms not individual terms).

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, zydeco said:

You constantly volunteered to be the classroom monitor back in primary school, didn't you.

bet he serves the gin tonics at the embassy

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

I reckon you're right. The British Embassy missed a trick here. Had they continued to issue the letters on exactly the same basis as before the onus would have been on Thai immigration offices to start declining them. If immigration offices started rejecting them then we expats would be venting our anger at Thai immigration, not at the British Embassy. And it would be a clear and transparent Thai policy change that we were angry about.

 

As things stand how likely is it that individual immigration offices, or officers working there, would suddenly change their working practices and reject a time honoured British Embassy letter? Highly unlikely I'd say. It would need a high level policy decision from someone senior in Bangkok that was sent out to all offices. Immigration officers who have been in the job "man & boy" and accepting these letters all the time, are not going to stop accepting them overnight unless a very very big cheese in Thai immigration tells them to. 

 

There has been no public statement of a change in policy on these letters from Thai immigration. As far as they are concerned it is business as usual. It seems someone from Thai immigration may have made an off the cuff remark, about verifying income, over an after dinner brandy with someone from the British Embassy back in May. That was hardly a Thai policy change.

 

But, instead of being common sense about it, I suspect the person involved from the British Embassy went into "pedant mode" and this British Embassy policy change is the unfortunate and ill thought out result. This doesn't have to have been at a senior level, mid or junior level management at the Embassy could easily have been enjoying that after dinner brandy with someone from immigration and caused a knee jerk over reaction from the Embassy.  Just can't get the staff these days.

 

If he has anything about him the British Ambassador will now step in and clean up the mess. 

 

That's my take on this.

So it sounds like you're predicting the British embassy will backtrack on their ill founded decision to end the embassy letters. That's an optimistic thought. I wouldn't predict that either way at this point but I guess I think it's much more likely they are going to follow through with this FOLLY. 

[jimn]

1 hour ago, csmith said:

I've been doing the marriage (spouse) Visa extension for the last 15 years (in Chiangmai) and have NEVER used a letter from the Brit Embassy/Consulate … I just show Immigration my Bank Book with Baht 400,000 BUT … I do also have to show a confirmation letter from Bangkok Bank (they charge Baht100) that I do have the funds. 

BTW .. The is no Brit Embassy or Consulate in Chiangmai.

Thats a totally different method of getting an extension. Its nothing to do with proving income of 65,000 THB per month. Please keep up.

[Jingthing]

Just now, jimn said:

Thats a totally different method of getting an extension. Its nothing to do with proving income of 65,000 THB per month. Please keep up.

Much more sadly and consequentially, that lady from the embassy seems to be conflating the two types of applications as well. Notice how it was never answered whether she had been given evidence of EVEN ONE income based application in the past being accepted without EMBASSY letter. The interview pushed a bit, but then dropped the ball on that obvious final question. 

[totally thaied up]

54 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

However, disturbingly, what the British kerfuffle is potentially stimulating (and yes I fully blame the British embassy for opening this CAN OF WORMS probably caused by their utter lack of understanding of these matters) is for Thailand to change to be one of the nations where that full IMPORTATION of claimed monthly INCOME is required.

That would be a HORRIBLE development and potentially bleed to more or all nationalities. 

Of course the fully funded and seasoned BANK ACCOUNT option remains as in the status quo. With that option there is no requirement to import at all in any given year, and certainly not the full amount annually.

 

Some very silly people have imagined a Thai immigration requirement to actually SPEND the full amounts annually (income or banked).

 

That is ridiculous and there is nod nation in the world with a retirement program that requires that. But some do require full claimed income IMPORT. 

 

This could be the beginning of the process where Thailand becomes one of those. You do not want that! (Thanks a bunch, British embassy.)

3

This is what I am worried most about. You put your 800/400K in the bank but it has to be shown to be used for the period of the year. For us Australians having such a weak FX position now, this would cost me a lot more money every year. I don't want to lose say 6% of my yearly gains because the British Embassy threw a can worms out and now Thai Immigration runs with it.

 

Like Jingthing said - You do not want that!  Where full IMPORTATION of claimed monthly INCOME is required.

Edited October 13, 2018 by totally thaied up

[rtco]

I have just renewed my Non Imm 'O' (Marriage Visa) and only showed +400,000 THB in my account + a letter from my Bank confirming that I had this amount in my account 5 days prior to submission + I provided copies of the relevant pages in my Bank Book.

[White Tiger]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So it sounds like you're predicting the British embassy will backtrack on their ill founded decision to end the embassy letters. That's an optimistic thought. I wouldn't predict that either way at this point but I guess I think it's much more likely they are going to follow through with this FOLLY. 

You might be right mate. I hope you're wrong.

 

If the Ambassador is worth his salt he'll sort it out. 

[Jingthing]

Just now, rtco said:

I have just renewed my Non Imm 'O' (Marriage Visa) and only showed +400,000 THB in my account + a letter from my Bank confirming that I had this amount in my account 5 days prior to submission + I provided copies of the relevant pages in my Bank Book.

100 percent irrelevant to the issue at hand. NOT HELPFUL. The issues are about income based applications that require embassy letters. Your type of bank account based application does not.

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, smedly said:

come into a Thai bank can be abused, Lump sum can be abused, all of it can be abused it you have a will to do so, there are agents backhanders etc etc, one thing I do believe is that change is coming and the BE has just given a heads up, so be prepared.  

Anything can and will be abused. That is why most entities  request back up proof in multiples to limit their exposure

-Rental agreement from your rented home

-Proof of Home ownership

-Direct Deposit statement from your bank

-Debit cards 

 

Thai Imm has depended on the Embassy Letter as it is an easy document- If they really want proof of overseas income- you need  2-3 documents that will show  intertwining - ie-  Bank  Summary - showing direct deposit of your pension along with a letter from the  pension provider verifying amounts- along with a Debit Card  that gets the money out of your home country account.  Pretty hard to  create bank debit cards and then create bank statement and then create ATM slips and then create Pension letters.  It is called preponderance of evidence and while not fool proof- eliminates most fraud.