Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Luckysilk]

6 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Someone should post the link to that Petition that was made regarding this matter.

 

Signing that will do more good than whining and moaning on TV will.

It's a waste of time, 250 folks a month and how many of those are producing fraudulent documents ??

 

A Petition requires 10,000 signatures to get a response from the Government.

 

And the response will be deposit 400/800K

 

[Runamile]

3 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The requirement is for people to have a pension income of 65,000 a month or have a lump sum available of 800,000.  If you have income of 65,000 a month and your expenditures are only 30,000 a month... then in a few years - you would have enough in the bank to go the lump sum approach and not worry about showing monthly income.  The purpose would be served either way.  If you only have 30,000 in income a month and somehow have been pretending it is more - you just were not properly meeting requirements in the first place (you as in general terms not individual terms).

I think someone didn't read what I said. The point is that this is all about holding money in the soft currency of a politically unstable country. Who remotely in their right mind would want to do that? And who would do it when the immigration rules do not state 65K Baht into a Thai Bank but only ever looked at global income. The current discussion is of entries into a Thai bank account only because Thai Immigration have said, seemingly informally, that they can't cope with reading non-Thai, non-Baht bank statements. Their rules make no such demand, and other countries' nationals will be able to continue as ever they did before on the basis of global income.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The requirement is for people to have a pension income of 65,000 a month or have a lump sum available of 800,000.  If you have income of 65,000 a month and your expenditures are only 30,000 a month... then in a few years - you would have enough in the bank to go the lump sum approach and not worry about showing monthly income.  The purpose would be served either way.  If you only have 30,000 in income a month and somehow have been pretending it is more - you just were not properly meeting requirements in the first place (you as in general terms not individual terms).

with my family, insurances, school fees, kids, including one of my own, I get through more than 65,000 a month, every month there is some bill or other waiting, with 6 insurances it's usually a health insurance bill, car repairs, car insurance, land tax (my wife has over 200 rai rice fields) fertilizer, plowing costs, you name it I've got the bill.

[zydeco]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Anything can and will be abused. That is why most entities  request back up proof in multiples to limit their exposure

-Rental agreement from your rented home

-Proof of Home ownership

-Direct Deposit statement from your bank

-Debit cards 

 

Thai Imm has depended on the Embassy Letter as it is an easy document- If they really want proof of overseas income- you need  2-3 documents that will show  intertwining - ie-  Bank  Summary - showing direct deposit of your pension along with a letter from the  pension provider verifying amounts- along with a Debit Card  that gets the money out of your home country account.  Pretty hard to  create bank debit cards and then create bank statement and then create ATM slips and then create Pension letters.  It is called preponderance of evidence and while not fool proof- eliminates most fraud.  

 

I really don't see the Immigration officer at Chaeng Wattana sorting through the "preponderance of evidence" for every extension renewal.  They won't understand. It take far too long to process. They're going to demand that letter.  Nice and simple for everyone.

[jimn]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Sorry- this is not enough-  A  person who has sufficient income coming from abroad cannot transfer $65K/40K into a Thai Bank account in time to meet a full year of  'proof' if their extension is due August 2019 and onward.  Nor should they have to.

 

The Police Order is what sets up the criteria of needed documentation- not the Thai Imm site. The Police Order clearly indicates that Thai Imm will accept the Income Letter ALONG WITH any other documentation proving the amounts on the income letter.  I have shown-  Pension Letters;  a US Bank statement showing 65K coming into my account by direct deposit as well as US ATM cards  which I use in a Thai ATM to extract the money.  Thai Imm in ChaengWattana ACCEPTED  this as proof.  I have never had to even have a Thai Bank Account to show any proof.  It is highly impractical to  have to transfer 65K every month . I seriously doubt any Thai Bank would  issue a letter indicating anything of the sort.  This is the 21st Century- some of us use Debit Cards/Credit Cards to  get our monthly funds. No One needs a local account unless you use the In Bank method or the Combo.  That is why the Police Order allows  the monthly income proof method.  Don't believe me- read over the  first hand accounts from those in the CM area who have been asked to show added proof- CM Immigration has accepted exactly what I have indicated that I had to show.

 

If you are going to send an email to to the BE Embassy  to have them interface with Thai Imm- the added questions should be asked:

 

-Will you as Thai Imm still accept- a pension letter- letterhead stationary from a Government entity- or a Company showing  monthly income as proof of  meeting the Thai Imm requirement

-Will you as immigration still accept- a standard foreign bank statement showing direct deposits on a monthly basis into a foreign bank account . In addition will you also accept  foreign debit cards along with other income letters from foreign governments/companies as a source of getting the income into Thailand.

 

There may be more questions needed about the combination method and how this will work without the  Embassy Letter.

 

Unfortunately, the BE spokesperson does not understand that Thai Imm law of 1979 or the most recent Police Order and how in actuality each  Imm Region interprets the requirements.  As many posters have indicated- each Region can and does ask for added documentation.  This is allowed under the Immigration Act and also under the Police Order.

 

I would urge the BE to study the Imm Act of 1979 and the current Police Order- at least read the Police Order- it is not that difficult to understand/  I am not an expert on these things but I have done many retirement and marriage extensions over the years and I always study the Police Order before I do my next extension and if I need clarification I go directly to an Imm Officer  with a specific question.

 

Unfortunately- the BE does not understand how the Police Order applies and therefore cannot ask the right questions to get full clarification.

 

 

This is probably the most sensible comment in the 4 threads currently running on this debacle. Maybe I can suggest that you put what you have said in a clear letter email to the BE. You seem to have done the hard bit already. I myself have emailed the Foreign Office minister. As yet to get a response.

[mfd101]

4 minutes ago, Runamile said:

the soft currency of a politically unstable country

You mean the pound?

 

Jokes aside, the baht looks a whole lot stronger and likely to remain that way, perhaps for years to come ...

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, smedly said:

I can all easily be falsified, give you a clue

 

You have 2 UK bank accounts, all you need to do is transfer money between them or have a mate do same, you could get away with not having any income at all - just moving the same money around for free.

 

I honestly believe to whole income verification/Affidavit process has been flawed for years and is abused by many.

 

Quite what Thailand is going to introduce going forward is anyones guess but it is long overdue,

 

There are many on here that are complaining because they have not abused the system and have always done what was legally required of them.

 

Income into a Thai bank can be abused, Lump sum can be abused, all of it can be abused it you have a will to do so, there are agents backhanders etc etc, one thing I do believe is that change is coming and the BE has just given a heads up, so be prepared.  

 

 

Agree with all that.

 

At the end of the day, does it really matter ? No Farang is entitled to any benefits from the Thai government so they survive or thrive on the level of their income. I don’t necessarily accept the government line that ‘aliens’ with little money automatically resort to crime.

 

I know at least one person who receives less than 10,000 Baht per month. He lives in the village with his wife, doesn’t work, doesn’t bother anyone and lives out his final years simply and contentedly. 

 

He falls foul of the rules and would (rightly) be deported by the Thai authorities.

 

I am aware of another who probably has 10x the 800,000 Baht retirement extension money in the bank. Welcomed by the authorities with open arms. Unfortunately, he is a nasty piece of work and uses his money to procure the services of under-age girls.

 

 

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Luckysilk said:

raudulent documents ??

 

A Petition requires 10,000 signatures to get a response from the Government.

 

And the response will be deposit 400/800K

Just read the most recent Police Order of 2014- which clearly indicates that  Appl  applicants using the retired method need to HAVE income on a monthly basis of 65K or if married have income of 40K/  It says nothing about the money being deposited in a Thai account.  It does indicate that added documentation may be requested.

However if one is using the Bank Deposit Method- the money must be $800K/400K deposited in a Thai Bank Account

 

The Police Order is what Thai Imm uses to establish eligibility and evidence- I suggest the BE might want to read this prior to any further contact with Thai Imm. 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

Someone on the other thread said that these are the requirements for converting to a non-O from another visa (tourist or 30 day stamp I assume); I don't know but that is what it seems to say at the top of the form. Does anyone have the equivalent for the marriage extension (and the retirement if it is indeed different to the above)?

 

Yes, those prior posted documents are NOT the list for EXTENSIONS. They do appear to be the list for visas/visa conversions issued by Immigration.

 

Easy to tell the difference, in part because the retirement extension fee is 1900 baht, not 2000 as listed in the images posted above. The title section also is talking about Non-O.

 

[Jingthing]

Be sure to preserve the COMBINATION method. That allows applicants with less than 65K monthly income to still qualify by adding a balance in a Thai bank account. 

[Scouse123]

I have only one question and that is why is there not one rule of requirements of proof of income declarations for all nationalities?

 

It appears that the USA requirement letter to satisfy Thai immigration is different to the UK and the UK is different to the Australian and no doubt the Australian is different to the German.

 

The requirement needs to be cast iron and crystal clear, as well as being the same requirement, for all nationalities of all countries to produce.

 

 

[worgeordie]

3 minutes ago, Runamile said:

The point is that this is all about holding money in the soft currency of a politically unstable country. Who remotely in their right mind would want to do that?

That sounds like the UK at the moment,just pleased I had

most of my cash in Thailand when Sterling crashed and may drop further.

Why can people not just put 400,000 THB or 800,000 THB

into a Thai Bank,if they have not got that kind of cash to

do it,maybe their expectations of living abroad as an expat

are too high.

regards worgeordie

[habanero]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

No they don't.  They let you lie and say you have the income and you sign it and they sign that you signed it.

Proof that misery loves company!

[mfd101]

The interview with the vice-consul is an interesting example of bureaucratic squirming on the end of a hook. It takes some 9 of the 18 minutes to get to the point. The 1st half is spent repeating ad nauseam what the current & past rules are/were. Only slowly slowly reluctantly does she get dragged to the real issues. If I were a Brit, the interview would rather undermine any remaining confidence I had in the effectiveness of the consular staff in their Embassy.

 

The numbers though were interesting, assuming accurate. Not the scores of thousands of poor souls who are about to be bereft that we were being told on this & parallel threads ...

 

My experience 3 days ago at Kap Choeng with my Aussie statdec of income would suggest that anything more than 2 short sentences of English prose is beyond the capacity to understand of most Thai Immigration officers outside BKK.

Edited October 13, 2018 by mfd101

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I am aware of another who probably has 10x the 800,000 Baht retirement extension money in the bank. Welcomed by the authorities with open arms. Unfortunately, he is a nasty piece of work and uses his money to procure the services of under-age girls.

 

 

And being an upstanding citizen - you have reported this individual to both Thai authorities and to authorities of his country of citizenship...

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

I have only one question and that is why is there not one rule of requirements of proof of income declarations for all nationalities?

 

It appears that the USA requirement letter to satisfy Thai immigration is different to the UK and the UK is different to the Australian and no doubt the Australian is different to the German.

 

The requirement needs to be cast iron and crystal clear, as well as being the same requirement, for all nationalities of all countries to produce.

 

 

That's not hard to answer. Each embassy represents a sovereign government. The embassies are under rules set back in their own nations as far as specific details of embassy services. That's why there is variation between nations. Just as the British embassy can't dictate Thai embassy policy (though it sounds like they're trying) the Thai government can't dictate every detail of every process to foreign governments. The Thais have the right to accept or not accept the embassy letters from any government. They still have and have always had the right to demand further evidence to support the claims in the letter. 

 

It's quite obvious that the British embassy should just keep issuing the letters using whatever language they're OK using on it and put the ball back in Thailand's court about acceptance of their letters. What they are doing now is a big mess and may impact other nationals as well -- trying to get Thai immigration to change their enforcement policies only for their nationals. Such an effort may possibly spark unintended negative consequences for all nationals. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[sfokevin]

20 minutes ago, rtco said:

I have just renewed my Non Imm 'O' (Marriage Visa) and only showed +400,000 THB in my account + a letter from my Bank confirming that I had this amount in my account 5 days prior to submission + I provided copies of the relevant pages in my Bank Book.

That’s fine and dandy but has nothing to do with what is being discussed on this thread!...

[Exploring Thailand]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yes, those prior posted documents are NOT the list for EXTENSIONS. They do appear to be the list for visas/visa conversions issued by Immigration.

 

Easy to tell the difference, in part because the retirement extension fee is 1900 baht, not 2000 as listed in the images posted above. The title section also is talking about Non-O.

 

Agreed. As I posted here.

[habanero]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The reasonably solution is to have the 90 day reports require a copy of your bank book showing continuing deposits from a foreign source.

That is a very good suggestion. The only problem is, you don't have to go in person to do a 90-day report.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, Runamile said:

he current discussion is of entries into a Thai bank account only because Thai Immigration have said, seemingly informally, that they can't cope with reading non-Thai, non-Baht bank statements. Their rules make no such demand, and other countries' nationals will be able to continue as ever they did before on the basis of global income.

Not correct- Thai Imm had no trouble reading my US Social Security Statement and verifying my income and my US Veterans disability statement showing monthly payment-   They also had no problem looking at my US Bank Statement showing amounts and source of deposits as well as looking at my US Bank Debit Cards showing how I got the money into Thailand. It all matched. I could have also provided my banking statement exposing the debit card number so they could compare - they didn't ask for that.  Bangkok Imm accepted the proof.

 

In addition- Chiang Mai Imm has selectively asked US citizens for added proof of income- US Bank statements accepted as well as Pension letters.

 

I m quite sure Thai Imm- if not understanding what they are seeing- could simply phone the Embassy- fax over a copy and the Embassy explain it to them.

 

The BE needs to do their home work - and I might add probably many other Embassies. You can't assist your citizens if you don't understand the system or the relevant laws.

 

[jimn]

45 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

I'm mystified at all the bitching against the UK embassy. Yous come half way around the world without a financial back up plan if plan A doesn't work. What would all yous be doing if you got yourselves in a position, such as medical treatment, whereby you need 400,000 Baht in a hurry? Would you go to the embassy and ask them for a loan to help you out? On being told they can't assist would you they start bitch that they're not doing their job? 

Rules change over time and anyone with any sense who hasn't got a Plan B deserves the fallout. Do what you'd do in a medical emergency. Sell your car. Sell your house. Sell the missus gold. Why blame the embassy? Oh because that's the easy option.

What a nonsence post. If I have a medical emergency I use something called INSURANCE. I keep my money in my UK bank account and provide proof of income via an embassy letter (Currently). Is that so hard to understand or is it because yous come from the North East. Lol

[Russell17au]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Because the others do not do verification letters!  just pay in 65k a month into your Thai account?  

You are wrong BobBKK. Australia use a Statutory Declaration that is filled in by me and it is signed by me in front of the Embassy staff which is then signed and stamped by them and that is accepted by Thai Immigration with no problems.

[wealthychef]

2 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

Statements from the British Embassy are not worth anything.

 

Until we hear a statement from Thai Immigration, we are all just guessing.

 

Haha are statements from Thai immigration worth much more?  My understanding is that they operate separate little fiefdoms with varying standards for compliance.  Maybe I'm misinformed;  wouldn't be the first time, I admit. 

[Scouse123]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's not hard to answer. Each embassy represents a sovereign government. The embassies are under rules set back in their own nations as far as specific details of embassy services. That's why there is variation between nations. Just as the British embassy can't dictate Thai embassy policy (though it sounds like they're trying) the Thai government can't dictate every detail of every process to foreign governments. The Thais have the right to accept or not accept the embassy letters from any government. They still have and have always had the right to demand further evidence to support the claims in the letter. 

 

Yes,

 

I agree with that. But, it appears from what the British Embassy is saying is that Thai policy has changed regards the income letters.

 

I only did it twice for ease, and will just revert to my original system of 800K. However, when I did use the income option, they made me produce bank statements and income streams and sources, or at least that is what I provided.

 

It seems a bit odd/weird that the Thais have not focussed on other nations whose nationals are basically self-certifying to their Embassy to then be given a letter which is acceptable.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, habanero said:

That is a very good suggestion. The only problem is, you don't have to go in person to do a 90-day report.

Well, there is another alternative (being that I been involved in developing banking systems) is to have an indicator on the account that the account is for the purposes of foreign income for specific purposes, and then write an extract to extract files for submission to the government (a weeks worth of work on the bank side - if they are competent).  They could then have a summary of FTT transactions received by month and by year.  There are no tax implications for the account type so not much work.

[Moonlover]

 

"Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats". How so?

 

I read the header above and then I got myself a cup of tea and listened, with great interest the 18 minute interview with Lian Galloway from the British Embassy.

 

At the end of that interview, (and my cup of tea) I am quite satisfied that there is no confusion at all. I had thought, all along that this all a 'storm in a teacup' and that those of us who can legitimately show that we have sufficient income through bank deposits and pension letters etc, do not have a problem at all.

 

There will, I'm sure be a few hiccups whilst all the Immigration offices around the country adjust to this situation, but once things settle down it will be business as usual.

 

They only thing I'm confused about is why the O/P chose such a negative heading for this article.

 

P. S. Those who have made negative contributions to this thread without listening to the interview, should rewind and go listen.

 

 

 

 

[Jip99]

10 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

And being an upstanding citizen - you have reported this individual to both Thai authorities and to authorities of his country of citizenship...

 

I am no snitch..

[mfd101]

4 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

You are wrong BobBKK. Australia use a Statutory Declaration that is filled in by me and it is signed by me in front of the Embassy staff which is then signed and stamped by them and that is accepted by Thai Immigration with no problems.

Correct, and that is NOT a 'verification letter". It is YOUR statdec and the OzEmb simply WITNESSES YOU signing it.

[smedly]

16 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

I am aware of another who probably has 10x the 800,000 Baht retirement extension money in the bank. Welcomed by the authorities with open arms. Unfortunately, he is a nasty piece of work and uses his money to procure the services of under-age girls.

I would not hesitate to bring that to the attention of the authorities 

 

and the rest of your post was spot on

[Russell17au]

1 minute ago, mfd101 said:

Correct, and that is NOT a 'verification letter". It is YOUR statdec and the OzEmb simply WITNESSES YOU signing it.

That is correct and all that is needed is for the British Embassy to change over to the same system and use a Stat Dec system