Pheu Thai Party Could Be Dissolved If Under Thaksin: EC

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, zzaa09 said:

Mass rebellion and exiled removal of those responsible?

Just maybe when the masses get the courage to stand up and demand fair and equal justice, equal quality education, etc., etc. 

 

But (a big but) there needs to be better broad based education so the masses are more knowledgeable, and really understand that it's not fair and it can be / must be different and until we do something it ain't going to change.

 

I hope it happens sooner than later.

 

[JCauto]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

I did not know you were a die hard red supporter ? 

 

You seem to agree with me that whoever is in power goes after their enemies and not their own even if they break the law. (both applying the law selectively) That admission in my eyes clears you of being a die hard red supporter. Thaksin and his are as much a problem as the junta. They both abuse the system and id rather see them both go or at least both get punished every time they break the law until they follow the law.

 

When that happens i won't comment on junta or PTP.. too bad i doubt it will happen. I

I don't know to whom you are referring specifically, I can only judge based on this thread where you mentioned it, so I presumed that those of us who are taking the Red side in this debate are. I don't see anywhere in this thread that you will find someone claiming what you claimed.

 

As to your contention that they're the same, no, I disagree. One was elected, the other seized power on the basis of having guns.

[scorecard]

41 minutes ago, JCauto said:

I don't know to whom you are referring specifically, I can only judge based on this thread where you mentioned it, so I presumed that those of us who are taking the Red side in this debate are. I don't see anywhere in this thread that you will find someone claiming what you claimed.

 

As to your contention that they're the same, no, I disagree. One was elected, the other seized power on the basis of having guns.

re-read your own posts...

[JCauto]

14 minutes ago, scorecard said:

re-read your own posts...

Speaking of disingenuous...

[JAG]

3 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Mass rebellion and exiled removal of those responsible?

It probably will end, eventually, with a late night scuttle for the airport. Whether they all "make it out" will depend on the willingness of their middle and lower ranking supporters to hold any persuers at bay, knowing that they are going to be left behind.

 

Not a good plan...

[zzaa09]

Playing sort of a moderate devil's advocate - 

 

Perhaps, it should be agreed upon by Junta and Thaksin apologists/defenders alike, that there is no middle ground here and comparative [less superlatives] don't apply regarding these situations.

 

A closer and fair examination might suggest that they're all cut from the same cloth, yes? 

Not much difference, if any...

[zzaa09]

3 minutes ago, JAG said:

It probably will end, eventually, with a late night scuttle for the airport. Whether they all "make it out" will depend on the willingness of their middle and lower ranking supporters to hold any persuers at bay, knowing that they are going to be left behind.

 

Not a good plan...

Yet, a forced exile and cleansing needs to be thorough - to the end.

These assorted and novel banishment have been witnessed in the past......[re: contemporary Thai history] yet, always seen to be redeemed and return to play their wares once more. 

 

 

[JCauto]

2 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Playing sort of a moderate devil's advocate - 

 

Perhaps, it should be agreed upon by Junta and Thaksin apologists/defenders alike, that there is no middle ground here and comparative [less superlatives] don't apply regarding these situations.

 

A closer and fair examination might suggest that they're all cut from the same cloth, yes? 

Not much difference, if any...

Sure, I've said that all along.

 

Only difference is that one was elected by the majority of the population, and given another election with no restriction would overwhelmingly win again. The other has soldiers, guns, tanks, military aircraft and ships. And a compliant urban middle class willing to forgo the rights of the majority for their own convenience and benefit while denigrating them as buffalo.

[JAG]

26 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet, a forced exile and cleansing needs to be thorough - to the end.

These assorted and novel banishment have been witnessed in the past......[re: contemporary Thai history] yet, always seen to be redeemed and return to play their wares once more. 

 

 

The current junta have rather made it an aim to break that pattern, by "going for broke" in attempting to destroy Pheu Thai/Thaksin/Red Shirts once and for all.

When eventually "the wheels come off" I expect that the same zeal will be applied by Pheu Thai/Thaksin/Red Shirts. The biggest stabilizing factor in Thailand's long running political process cum power struggle has gone. That factor has hitherto rather "refereed" that struggle.

 

There will be blood and snott all over Bangkok. It is going, inevitably, to be messy.

[robblok]

11 hours ago, JCauto said:

I don't know to whom you are referring specifically, I can only judge based on this thread where you mentioned it, so I presumed that those of us who are taking the Red side in this debate are. I don't see anywhere in this thread that you will find someone claiming what you claimed.

 

As to your contention that they're the same, no, I disagree. One was elected, the other seized power on the basis of having guns.

Does not matter much for the end result.. one crook voted in one took powe by guns.. result crook in power.  Does not change the outcome. Rest assured I don't count you to the die hard red supporters.

[robblok]

14 hours ago, candide said:

 

Obviously, you did not read well my first post. What do you think of the question I ask in conclusion? (As I explain, the option "punish both" is not available, only "punish red crooks and not yellow crooks" is available)

Obviously i misread it my mistake.  My apologies.

 

I disagree that option punish both crooks is not available. Its not available because as long as you got crooked reds in power they can't claim innocence themselves and will never uproot the system as it would mean end of their crooking ways.

 

The only way is new blood that is not corrupt,unlike you i do believe in a better future and it will come from the people in power being clean and because they are clean they can go after the army as someone clean has less to fear.

 

That is why Thaksin needs to go until he is gone its just a fight between two evils. Where the end result is always the same crooks in power.

 

By becoming clean and letting themselves be subjected to corruption laws things will change.. not by accepting that they are both crooks. But it won't happen as long as Thaksin is in power.

 

Your solution of using red crooks to balance yellow crooks only keeps the status quo. The solution of clean people in government means they can push for change. As long as your dirty you can't push for change. So Thaksin is as much part of the problem and has to go. Your balancing act will only keep this power struggle go on forever or until either side wins and then you got crooks in power. 

 

So IMHO the only way forward is clean politicians and as long as they are not clean they deserve all the legal attention they get. Once they are clean they can without fear go after the junta and others. 

[robblok]

10 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Playing sort of a moderate devil's advocate - 

 

Perhaps, it should be agreed upon by Junta and Thaksin apologists/defenders alike, that there is no middle ground here and comparative [less superlatives] don't apply regarding these situations.

 

A closer and fair examination might suggest that they're all cut from the same cloth, yes? 

Not much difference, if any...

They are all crooks in for it for the money not much difference at all. That is why the law should be applied and clean people should emerge who are because they are clean not affraid to go after corruption. If your corrupt yourself your walking on eggshells and wont rock the boat. 

 

Only clean people can bring this country forward.. and obviously that is not Thaksin and its not the junta. They both need to go.

[billd766]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

They are all crooks in for it for the money not much difference at all. That is why the law should be applied and clean people should emerge who are because they are clean not affraid to go after corruption. If your corrupt yourself your walking on eggshells and wont rock the boat. 

 

Only clean people can bring this country forward.. and obviously that is not Thaksin and its not the junta. They both need to go.

 

What a nice thought.

 

However

 

Who will apply this wonderful law and who will enforce it?

 

Certainly not the current government and if you think that the Police will enforce it you are totally wrong.

 

It is in neither of their interests.

[robblok]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

What a nice thought.

 

However

 

Who will apply this wonderful law and who will enforce it?

 

Certainly not the current government and if you think that the Police will enforce it you are totally wrong.

 

It is in neither of their interests.

It starts with non corrupt politicians in government. Maybe people like future forward. They will force these new laws. As long as you got Thaksin and his corrupt bunch or Democrats and their corrupt bunch or the junta here the country will not move.

 

Why would Thaksin change.. he wants money and power, the junta wont change. That is why I am against both groups. As long as the government itself is corrupt you can't expect change. That is why Thaksin and his bunch are just as bad for the country as the junta (maybe slightly less destructive but not much)

 

Prayut is totally right when he says if you vote for the same old people the same stuff will happen again. But people should not vote for him.. nor should they vote for Thaksin. They should vote for new blood.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

It starts with non corrupt politicians in government. Maybe people like future forward. They will force these new laws. As long as you got Thaksin and his corrupt bunch or Democrats and their corrupt bunch or the junta here the country will not move.

 

Why would Thaksin change.. he wants money and power, the junta wont change. That is why I am against both groups. As long as the government itself is corrupt you can't expect change. That is why Thaksin and his bunch are just as bad for the country as the junta (maybe slightly less destructive but not much)

 

Prayut is totally right when he says if you vote for the same old people the same stuff will happen again. But people should not vote for him.. nor should they vote for Thaksin. They should vote for new blood.

Do you really believe that the FFP will ever be allowed to win at the election? They certainly cannot win at the next one whenever it comes and probably the one after either (if there is one).

 

One of the reasons is that they don't have the infrastructure that the PTP or other parties have which will limit their chances in any election. This is one of the things that Thaksin was very good at and he increased his position by merging other parties into the TRT. The TRT/PPP/PTP has always been weak in the South in the same way that the Democrats have always been weak in the North and especially Issan.

 

FFP is probably quite strong in BKK and perhaps other major cities but weak in the rural areas which is why they will not do that well this time. 

 

Another reason why the government is not allowing any political campaigning except its own. It is possibly why the government is delaying the disbandment of the PTP to make it difficult for ANY other party to take on the rural voters.

 

 

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Do you really believe that the FFP will ever be allowed to win at the election? They certainly cannot win at the next one whenever it comes and probably the one after either (if there is one).

 

One of the reasons is that they don't have the infrastructure that the PTP or other parties have which will limit their chances in any election. This is one of the things that Thaksin was very good at and he increased his position by merging other parties into the TRT. The TRT/PPP/PTP has always been weak in the South in the same way that the Democrats have always been weak in the North and especially Issan.

 

FFP is probably quite strong in BKK and perhaps other major cities but weak in the rural areas which is why they will not do that well this time. 

  

Another reason why the government is not allowing any political campaigning except its own. It is possibly why the government is delaying the disbandment of the PTP to make it difficult for ANY other party to take on the rural voters.

 

 

I believe they will be allowed to win an election, but like you said they don't have the infrastructure of the PTP just yet. 

 

My point was that Thaksin is not a solution but part of the ongoing conflict. So the PTP is as bad as the junta (slightly less evil because of the voting part). But neither are the way forward.

 

The only way forward is to clean corruption up with fresh faces. Problems will be going on forever unless they clean up corruption , and by doing so making being in goverment not profitable and by doing so remove the desire for crooks to get in government. For as long as so much money can be made in goverment by corruption everyone will keep trying to get in power .. coups .. street protests whatever. 

 

So corruption is actually the reason why people want to be in power.. so why think that Thaksin who is known for its corruption or the junta would make any changes. They will just fight on as long as its profitable.

 

So i believe that only new parties.. and only parties that are not corrupt are the way forward, choose the old faces get the old problems. Prayut was right.. but he should have included himself in the mess too as he is an old face with old problems (he represents the coup hungry military) 

[billd766]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

I believe they will be allowed to win an election, but like you said they don't have the infrastructure of the PTP just yet. 

 

My point was that Thaksin is not a solution but part of the ongoing conflict. So the PTP is as bad as the junta (slightly less evil because of the voting part). But neither are the way forward.

 

The only way forward is to clean corruption up with fresh faces. Problems will be going on forever unless they clean up corruption , and by doing so making being in goverment not profitable and by doing so remove the desire for crooks to get in government. For as long as so much money can be made in goverment by corruption everyone will keep trying to get in power .. coups .. street protests whatever. 

 

So corruption is actually the reason why people want to be in power.. so why think that Thaksin who is known for its corruption or the junta would make any changes. They will just fight on as long as its profitable.

 

So i believe that only new parties.. and only parties that are not corrupt are the way forward, choose the old faces get the old problems. Prayut was right.. but he should have included himself in the mess too as he is an old face with old problems (he represents the coup hungry military) 

But the FFP cannot win an election on its own, simply because they don't have the infrastructure in place across the whole of Thailand to enable a successful political campaign. They will certainly win seats in BKK and some of the bigger cities but they are NOT allowed to go out into the countryside to where the rural voters are.

 

They cannot harness the TV and the mass media to help them and unless they can actually go out to meet the rural people they are unable to reach them. They need thousands of paid staff across the country to do this, the cost will be very high and I am not sure if they can afford it.

 

The PTP and Thaksin have the organisation and the manpower to do it, The Democrats I am not so sure and the rest of the parties like the BJT and the ChartThaiPattana are more parochial in their geographical area.

 

IF, and it is a big IF, the PTP and the FFP could form a coalition (and the PTP is not disbanded) then between them they could conceivably win power and form a new government.

 

This is another nail in the coffin of the PTP from the governments outlook and yet another reason to disband the PTP.

 

If the coalition won properly and set upon the current government then sure a sh*t there will be another coup as the new Army chief of staff had publicly said. 

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But the FFP cannot win an election on its own, simply because they don't have the infrastructure in place across the whole of Thailand to enable a successful political campaign. They will certainly win seats in BKK and some of the bigger cities but they are NOT allowed to go out into the countryside to where the rural voters are.

 

They cannot harness the TV and the mass media to help them and unless they can actually go out to meet the rural people they are unable to reach them. They need thousands of paid staff across the country to do this, the cost will be very high and I am not sure if they can afford it.

 

The PTP and Thaksin have the organisation and the manpower to do it, The Democrats I am not so sure and the rest of the parties like the BJT and the ChartThaiPattana are more parochial in their geographical area.

 

IF, and it is a big IF, the PTP and the FFP could form a coalition (and the PTP is not disbanded) then between them they could conceivably win power and form a new government.

 

This is another nail in the coffin of the PTP from the governments outlook and yet another reason to disband the PTP.

 

If the coalition won properly and set upon the current government then sure a sh*t there will be another coup as the new Army chief of staff had publicly said. 

Bild,

 

I am not thinking about the current election... im thinking about the future. I doubt the FFP will score good in this election just like what you assume. 

 

I am talking about the future of Thailand not the next election.. that is a lost cause anyway and conflict will go on.

 

Only in future when people realize the way forward is to abandon old parties will things go well. 

 

That is at least my hope.. but nothing short term. 

[Eric Loh]

22 minutes ago, billd766 said:

If the coalition won properly and set upon the current government then sure a sh*t there will be another coup as the new Army chief of staff had publicly said. 

Poignant point not understood by one. 

[billd766]

52 minutes ago, robblok said:

Bild,

 

I am not thinking about the current election... im thinking about the future. I doubt the FFP will score good in this election just like what you assume. 

 

I am talking about the future of Thailand not the next election.. that is a lost cause anyway and conflict will go on.

 

Only in future when people realize the way forward is to abandon old parties will things go well. 

 

That is at least my hope.. but nothing short term. 

There may not be an election for a long while after this one and the big IF the government lose control I am certain that there will be enough "serious disturbances" found to start another coup.

 

Before the old parties are abandoned Thailand needs to rid itself completely of the Army and its coups and confine them to doing what they paid for, which is for external threats ONLY.

[tomta]

7 hours ago, robblok said:

It starts with non corrupt politicians in government. Maybe people like future forward. They will force these new laws. As long as you got Thaksin and his corrupt bunch or Democrats and their corrupt bunch or the junta here the country will not move.

 

Why would Thaksin change.. he wants money and power, the junta wont change. That is why I am against both groups. As long as the government itself is corrupt you can't expect change. That is why Thaksin and his bunch are just as bad for the country as the junta (maybe slightly less destructive but not much)

 

Prayut is totally right when he says if you vote for the same old people the same stuff will happen again. But people should not vote for him.. nor should they vote for Thaksin. They should vote for new blood.

It starts with free speech and the ability to criticize. Future Forward Party will, if they win (highly unlikely because the fix is in)  will no doubt have their share of corruptible people. If they can be criticized and held to account then maybe corruption will be less. But in any  government, corruption is always possible.

 

I am glad that after initially and for a very long time of holding a naive belief that somehow the junta would fix things, you have abandoned that belief. I am disappointed that you do not recognize that taking over a government through treason and violent threats is not an anti-corruption device. Democracy, carefully nurtured in all its details - free speech , respect for elections and the rule of law - is. 

 

People should vote for whoever they think best. I free and fair elections. Then their decision should be respected

[tomta]

To continue on, Robblok, I fail to understand how you ever believed that taking over the government by force was not an absolutely corrupt and corrupting act. I do not accept your idea that you were deceived because it was only expected to be for a short time not the four years that we have had. It is fundamentally and totally corrupt.

 

It dismays me that you expect that someday a government - free and elected or dictatorial and imposed - will one day emerge and that it will be made of incorruptible saints. It seems to me to be a completely naive view of the human condition. If Future Forward Party turns out to be corrupt, will you call for the army to run a coup to bring about perfection?

 

As Alexander Solzhenitsyn once said " The line dividing good and evils runs straight through the human heart".

 

If (a big if) a democratic government is elected - whoever they might be, we and the Thai people need to be able to criticicize them, protest against them, question them, but we do not need that army to corrupt the laws of the nation ostensibly on our behalf.

 

 

 

 

[tomta]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

Bild,

 

I am not thinking about the current election... im thinking about the future. I doubt the FFP will score good in this election just like what you assume. 

 

I am talking about the future of Thailand not the next election.. that is a lost cause anyway and conflict will go on.

 

Only in future when people realize the way forward is to abandon old parties will things go well. 

 

That is at least my hope.. but nothing short term. 

The trouble is, Robblok, in the long term we are all dead. You want paradise and would condemn us all to hell until it arrives

[scorecard]

24 minutes ago, tomta said:

It starts with free speech and the ability to criticize. Future Forward Party will, if they win (highly unlikely because the fix is in)  will no doubt have their share of corruptible people. If they can be criticized and held to account then maybe corruption will be less. But in any  government, corruption is always possible.

 

I am glad that after initially and for a very long time of holding a naive belief that somehow the junta would fix things, you have abandoned that belief. I am disappointed that you do not recognize that taking over a government through treason and violent threats is not an anti-corruption device. Democracy, carefully nurtured in all its details - free speech , respect for elections and the rule of law - is. 

 

People should vote for whoever they think best. I free and fair elections. Then their decision should be respected

Good points.

 

"It starts with free speech and the ability to criticize. Future Forward Party will, if they win (highly unlikely because the fix is in)  will no doubt have their share of corruptible people...."

 

IMHO this is one of the points the FF guy will need to be very strong with and very quickly, if he doesn't come down hard on his own members on this point it will quickly get more difficult to control.

 

In fact this point would be a test of his leadership capabilities. And let's be honest if he doesn't quickly make solid noticeable equal / fair inroads to get rid of the corruption culture make solid demands of change in the ministries etc.,  then Thailand has made no progress, again.

 

 

[zzaa09]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

Do you really believe that the FFP will ever be allowed to win at the election? They certainly cannot win at the next one whenever it comes and probably the one after either (if there is one).

 

One of the reasons is that they don't have the infrastructure that the PTP or other parties have which will limit their chances in any election. This is one of the things that Thaksin was very good at and he increased his position by merging other parties into the TRT. The TRT/PPP/PTP has always been weak in the South in the same way that the Democrats have always been weak in the North and especially Issan.

 

FFP is probably quite strong in BKK and perhaps other major cities but weak in the rural areas which is why they will not do that well this time. 

 

Another reason why the government is not allowing any political campaigning except its own. It is possibly why the government is delaying the disbandment of the PTP to make it difficult for ANY other party to take on the rural voters.

 

 

Overall, sound.

Yet, I believe the task of the FFP, Commoner Party, et al at hand is to gather and strengthen support among the rural masses and the newer generation make up of the city folk. A revolutionary grassroots following, if you will.

 

It's been quite obvious, for months, that the likes of the FFP has become extraordinarily popular among the everyday rural working classes and extends it's fame and clout in this manner........even though attempting to draw in the new generation of city intellectuals and activists alike. Quite fascinating to witness the accepted tolerance that they've garnered.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, tomta said:

It starts with free speech and the ability to criticize. Future Forward Party will, if they win (highly unlikely because the fix is in)  will no doubt have their share of corruptible people. If they can be criticized and held to account then maybe corruption will be less. But in any  government, corruption is always possible.

 

I am glad that after initially and for a very long time of holding a naive belief that somehow the junta would fix things, you have abandoned that belief. I am disappointed that you do not recognize that taking over a government through treason and violent threats is not an anti-corruption device. Democracy, carefully nurtured in all its details - free speech , respect for elections and the rule of law - is. 

 

People should vote for whoever they think best. I free and fair elections. Then their decision should be respected

I was like Robblok for a couple of years after the coup. Initially I thought it was a good idea as it certainly stopped all the street violence. I, like many others listened and believed the messages about stopping corruption, reforms etc but after a couple of years of nothing I came to the conclusion that only the "rulers" had changed and nothing else. Since then I believe that the current government have no real intention of changing anything because once the snout is in the trough it doesn't want to come out.

 

I do believe that there will be an election next year but it will be a sham and nothing like free and fair in any way, shape or form.

 

IMHO the only way to alter the oncoming events will be to have a "revolution" of a sort or perhaps a civil war in which far too many people will die. What the generals seem to forget is that the majority of the army are unwilling conscripts, and may not want to kill their families and in turn they may rebel. Sure a lot of them will be shot by the army but there are far more of them than there are regulars.

 

Would I like to see Thaksin back? Not particularly, but at least everybody knew he was corrupt and certainly in Issan They could accept that as the poor at least got something out of him which is more than any other government gave them

[JCauto]

3 hours ago, tomta said:

The trouble is, Robblok, in the long term we are all dead. You want paradise and would condemn us all to hell until it arrives

That's a good summary. 

 

Robblok has no practical advice, only principles that are impossible to be applied and which couldn't exist within the Thai context. To me this is a null position. 

[zzaa09]

56 minutes ago, JCauto said:

That's a good summary. 

 

Robblok has no practical advice, only principles that are impossible to be applied and which couldn't exist within the Thai context. To me this is a null position. 

Principles, which are usually associated with Western values and their promotions thereof.

Null positions as well.

[SheungWan]

On 10/26/2018 at 12:41 PM, billd766 said:

If the coalition won properly and set upon the current government then sure a sh*t there will be another coup as the new Army chief of staff had publicly said. 

That would be properly as in illegally continuing to have strings pulled by Thaksin.