Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, Notagain said:

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That almost fits into being being considered a conspiracy theory to me. Utter nonsense IMO.

Then tell me what is the reason for this sudden change in requirements ? The system was working just fine for many many years, Now they want 400/800K baht in their banking system for what reason ??? What is your theory for the sudden change with little notice.

Immigration haven't changed the requirements. They will still accept income with an embassy letter/affidavit.

 

The problem is that the British/American embassies will not issue income letters because immigration want them to verify the income.

[Ebumbu]

13 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Immigration haven't changed the requirements. They will still accept income with an embassy letter/affidavit.

 

 

No they won't. Not in Phuket. Affidavit denied, even with accompanying bankbook showing regular deposits. Only "guaranteed income" through 2019 such as a pension will satisfy them, as of right now. Got it from long-time immigration volunteer who reported ongoing rejections. They want to see a pension or government income ("guaranteed"). This is going down right now. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Ebumbu

[esqy]

Jingthing said; Avoiding the need to file FBAR is not a good reason to avoid the Thai immigration bank account method.

 

Unless you're a criminal or not paying income taxes owed to the US.  The US taxes citizens on income earned overseas and the Financial Crimes amnesty to bring it back to the US recently expired..

Edited October 31, 2018 by esqy

[Maestro]

38 minutes ago, elviajero said:

*** Starting JULY 2014 *** 

At the US embassy in Vientiane.

[elviajero]

21 hours ago, Maestro said:

On 10/30/2018 at 11:19 AM, elviajero said:

Retirement extensions are meant for people that don't work (retired). There's a clue in the name...

 

 

Gainful employment outside Thailand does not disqualify a foreigner from applying for and being granted a one-year extension of stay of stay under clause 2.22 of Police Order 327/2557

It is an extension of stay for people that do not work (retired) and want to live in Thailand. Why would it mention anything about applicants that are working abroad?

 

Currently, immigration do not insist on knowing the type or source of income, but it is meant to be pension/investment (passive) income. If they were to start insisting on knowing the source I am certain they would not allow income from employment.

 

If it were meant for people not retired they could just call it an 'over 50's extension' or similar.

 

As I wrote before, some embassies will insist on proof of retirement before issuing a non 'O' based on "retirement", fortunately immigration don't.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I'm open to other theories which reflect how immigration really functions.

Our theories/beliefs tend to be biased by our personal circumstances/needs so whilst Occam's to you seems to be everything is about Immigration being corrupt, Occam's to me says it's about stamping out people living/working here illegally (You can argue that my view is Naive if I can argue your's is anachronistic ????).

 

Whether you agree with it or not (& I don't) Thailand believes that Expats need 65,000 pm to live on, so if you can't prove this (I believe that) they believe you're working illegally to make up the difference.

 

Whether people can live on less than 65K (& I know I could if I had to) is irrelevant, that's the limit which they've decided on & at the end of the day their "Opinion" is the only one that counts. 

 

I can see the argument that it doesn't make sense to not take into consideration things like:-

• Own your own home -  (should reduce the requirement by 30%)
• Have health care (should reduce the requirement by 15%)
• Lifestyle (Don't drink, smoke, chase women - reduce requirement by another 50%)

... But I can also see how they don't have the skills/knowledge/time to review the myriad of different documentation that would go along with these (and how would you prove the last one!)

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[balo]

7 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Last time I looked a year or so ago Norway was paying 1/2 a percent  to 1 % on normal savings accounts.  Why am I out of date? 

 

My local deposit account is now 2.50%  , it used to be more than 3.50% . Add to that the 2 million KR security fond that will cover anything that might happen with banks in the future.   https://www.bankenessikringsfond.no/?lang=en_GB 

 

I will not transfer a big amount of money to Thailand so I will always look for other options. 

 

 

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, balo said:

will not transfer a big amount of money to Thailand so I will always look for other options. 

I feel exactly the same unless I am forced to do this by Immigration. There are many ways to prove income source.

 

Unfortunately- the confusion has already started- one report from Phuket indicating they want guaranteed income- a government pension or military pension. Then another report where they want only the money in the bank.(Hua Hin)

 

An original report came in from CW- where an applicant was asked what he would do next yea- apparently a survey being taken.

 

Reports from CM- where added proof being asked for with the Letter.

 

Obviously, Immigration offices in many locations have been made aware that the Embassy Letters for Americans and UK citizens are going away- but it does not appear 'guidance' has come from On High on how to handle the  way forward on income- not surprising at all- our experiences in the past as reported on TV indicate these separate Imm offices are  fiefdoms where they can ask  for added info-  always Phuket; Samui; Nonthaburi and some in between. 

The major offices like CM; Jomtien/Pattaya; CW; Udon appear to follow the  Police Order fairly consistent.  Jomtien has one oddity when an applicant comes in with  an exempt  entry/Tourist Visa and wants to change to a Non O and then pursue a Marriage/Retirement Extension. That desk asks for extra paperwork plus . before they will issue the Non O. Once issued the  rest flows normally.

 

Since the  Embassy Letter still exists- and can be used for 6 months from the date of issuance- many of us will continue to use it. However- as I do this I will have  Pension Letters; Bank Statements and other that is proof of income. like I always do and keep watching this forum to see what offices are accepting what proof.

 

Yes= it appears the UK and US Embassies have washed their hands of us but I plan on sending an email to them when each report of a citizen having a problem is reported. They  made the decision to stop the letters- for whatever reason- and now they own it.  So much for  'easing the transition'.

[Cruzn]

Could someone clarify the distinction between the 400,000 and 800,000 baht accounts?  I understand that the 800,000 is required for one individual.  But if there is married couple, both Americans, is it 400,000 each or 800,000 each?  Thanks!

[bkk6060]

31 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

 

 

Yes= it appears the UK and US Embassies have washed their hands of us but I plan on sending an email to them when each report of a citizen having a problem is reported. They  made the decision to stop the letters- for whatever reason- and now they own it.  So much for  'easing the transition'.

Think what you want.

They washed their hands of nothing but a letter that unfortunately had possibly been used by some for fraud.  I bet they are happy it will be gone.

And, now they "own it".

Own what? The ball is is TI court and truly always has been you live in Thailand your embassy is out of that the business.

 

Also, let us know about all the responses you get from them from your emails. Zero would be my guess....

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, bkk6060 said:

Also, let us know about all the responses you get from them from your emails. Zero would be my guess....

Actually I have 2 response already but I doubt you would be interested in the answers.

[Mike Teavee]

17 minutes ago, Cruzn said:

Could someone clarify the distinction between the 400,000 and 800,000 baht accounts?  I understand that the 800,000 is required for one individual.  But if there is married couple, both Americans, is it 400,000 each or 800,000 each?  Thanks!

The 400k is for a Foreign Man married to a Thai Woman, it would be 800K each for 2 foreigners (married or not)

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[namatjira]

Just the sheer volume and panic by the amount of comments on here suggest that a change was needed, being able to get your visas with little or no income by swearing on the Bible is no longer an option....and one that clearly needed to be stopped.

man up everybody, if you can not satisfy the requirements in a legal and proper manner you need to assess your situation.

its that element of people abusing a system that has caused it to be stopped......

[Pattaya46]

5 hours ago, Ebumbu said:

 

No they won't. Not in Phuket. Affidavit denied, even with accompanying bankbook showing regular deposits. Only "guaranteed income" through 2019 such as a pension will satisfy them, as of right now. Got it from long-time immigration volunteer who reported ongoing rejections. They want to see a pension or government income ("guaranteed"). This is going down right now. 

For now it's just one more rumour among the many on this forum.

I will not believe anything before I *read* it on a Immigration note and/or on their website.

 

"This is going down right now"?

I think if was the case we would have many report of that on this forum, and - AFAIK - we don't...

[Pib]

Since Thai Immigration allows embassy income letters up to 6 months old it is a key reason there is probably no urgency at HQ Thai Immigration to put out new guidance over the next few months.  I expect HQ TI to set back for several more months at least...collect data & recommendations from their immigration offices which are probably doing some surveys/asking applicants what they now plan to do for their next renewal...even monitor threads like this on ThaiVisa...etc.  And then possibly (hopefully) put out guidance on their website which we can all read versus needing to ask for an immigration officer's interpretation at Nakhon Nowhere offices.   

 

Unfortunately we are just going to have to wait for HQ TI guidance which I know is kinda like an injured person who has broken bones & bleeding who is nervously looking-up at the doctors & nurses around him but the doctors are not talking as they silently stand over you as they think how to treat you.

 

 

[fforest1]

2 hours ago, namatjira said:

Just the sheer volume and panic by the amount of comments on here suggest that a change was needed, being able to get your visas with little or no income by swearing on the Bible is no longer an option....and one that clearly needed to be stopped.

man up everybody, if you can not satisfy the requirements in a legal and proper manner you need to assess your situation.

its that element of people abusing a system that has caused it to be stopped......

Please let me be the first in line to to tell you to man-up and suck it up when they decide to stop accepting what ever method you are using to get your visa... 

 

All visas....Every last one of them (including the 800,000 in the bank) have weakness that can be and are used to cheat the system every day...

Gloating about others visa misfortune seems to be a sport on Thai Visa ever sense the first visa crackdowns on the 30 day visa runners... 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by fforest1

[Wanderlust]

The way that the immigration and visa rules and associated police orders are written (as with many Thai laws) is such that it always gives leeway to the official to be able to allow or disallow something as they see fit; anyone entering Thailand, even if they have the correct visa and no black marks against them in the system or their passport can be refused entry if the officer doesn't like the cut of their jib; this can be genuine or an effort to induce a bribe. If the new head of immigration means what he says then we should expect more genuine and less bribe-inducing efforts, but I doubt that he will succeed except in the short term. Alternative avenues tend to appear whenever there is a need.

 

As it stands, for UK and US citizens, beyond the grace period of the embassy letters/affadavits which takes us to July or possibly August depending on how far in advance your local office allows extension applications, there is, at present, only one guaranteed method to get the 12 month extension to one's stay, which is having the 400/800k properly seasoned in a Thai bank account. The agent route may or may not remain an option; regular deposits into a foreign or Thai bank account have only ever been accepted along with the embassy letter.

 

My prediction, for what it's worth, is that most embassies from the other countries who currently do not actually verify the income will follow the same route that the UK and US embassies have and stop issuing embassy documents for this purpose. Those who don't follow, like the Australians appear not to be, will probably find that at some point in the next few months, that Thai immigration will demand additional, acceptable, proof of their income before granting an extension, or at least will be warned that they will have to do that next time or switch to the lump sum method; and I imagine the proof demanded will not allow for many types of income. I hope this doesn't happen and that they will allow foreign and/or Thai bank statements/letters, but it is wise to anticipate the worst and hope for the best. I think some embassies are taking a calculated gamble that their unsubstantiated letters/statutory declarations will continue to be accepted by immigration, while some embassies are actually complying with what immigration are, and always have been, wanting. We will find out how that works out during the first six or seven months of 2019, unless immigration makes any sort of announcement before then.

[Mike Teavee]

59 minutes ago, Pib said:

Since Thai Immigration allows embassy income letters up to 6 months old it is a key reason there is probably no urgency at HQ Thai Immigration to put out new guidance over the next few months.  I expect HQ TI to set back for several more months at least...collect data & recommendations from their immigration offices which are probably doing some surveys/asking applicants what they now plan to do for their next renewal...even monitor threads like this on ThaiVisa...etc.  And then possibly (hopefully) put out guidance on their website which we can all read versus needing to ask for an immigration officer's interpretation at Nakhon Nowhere offices.   

 

Unfortunately we are just going to have to wait for HQ TI guidance which I know is kinda like an injured person who has broken bones & bleeding who is nervously looking-up at the doctors & nurses around him but the doctors are not talking as they silently stand over you as they think how to treat you.

 

 

Problems will start happening early January when people turn up to their Embassy to be told that they've stopped issuing "Income Certificates", then turn up at Thai Immigration to be told that they should have got one before 1st January.

 

Really needs clarifying asap (it's too late for some people already) or a transition process putting in place 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Problems will start happening early January when people turn up to their Embassy to be told that they've stopped issuing "Income Certificates", then turn up at Thai Immigration to be told that they should have got one before 1st January.

 

Really needs clarifying asap (it's too late for some people already) or a transition process putting in place 

 

Yes, I agree. Plenty of people don't follow all these granular immigration issues closely. Such people will be in for a very rude surprise. It's unfortunate that to stay on top of the situation here you kind of need to. 

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, namatjira said:

man up everybody, if you can not satisfy the requirements in a legal and proper manner you need to assess your situation. 

its that element of people abusing a system that has caused it to be stopped.....

No.  Many of us could get an embassy letter based on our (not fake) gross worldwide income.  This is 100% in accordance with the law, and long-standing practice.  We can no longer do that now. 

 

Maybe we can show net-xferred-income instead - or maybe only if it is from a state-pension - or who knows?  That is the crux of the issue. 

 

Please do not confuse/smear us with a handful of people willing to commit a fraud/perjury felony with embassy-staff. 

We are not the income-fakers - those people use agents, and are rewarded with "no hassle" extensions by immigration.  The screws are being put to the honest folks, as usual.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Cruzn said:

Could someone clarify the distinction between the 400,000 and 800,000 baht accounts?  I understand that the 800,000 is required for one individual.  But if there is married couple, both Americans, is it 400,000 each or 800,000 each?  Thanks!

The required funds are 800K for a retirement-based extension.  But the solution is to have the 800K in one-spouse's acct, get the retirement-extension for them, then have the other "piggy-back" with a Non-O extension as the spouse / family-member of the other.  No financials are required for the 2nd applicant.

[moontang]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

The required funds are 800K for a retirement-based extension.  But the solution is to have the 800K in one-spouse's acct, get the retirement-extension for them, then have the other "piggy-back" with a Non-O extension as the spouse / family-member of the other.  No financials are required for the 2nd applicant.

correct, and I have read reports of joint accounts requiring 1.6, which many have...but the way things have been going, a joint account still might not work.  Always keep it simple....especially here, yet many just cant get a hold of that concept.

[Mike Teavee]

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The required funds are 800K for a retirement-based extension.  But the solution is to have the 800K in one-spouse's acct, get the retirement-extension for them, then have the other "piggy-back" with a Non-O extension as the spouse / family-member of the other.  No financials are required for the 2nd applicant.

Interesting option, any restrictions / differences on the 2nd extension (e.g. is it like the 60 days you get for visiting a dependent or do you also get 1 year) 

[JackThompson]

 

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Jomtien has one oddity when an applicant comes in with  an exempt  entry/Tourist Visa and wants to change to a Non O and then pursue a Marriage/Retirement Extension. That desk asks for extra paperwork plus . before they will issue the Non O. Once issued the  rest flows normally.

Not if you are applying for an extension based on marriage and don't own your own condo -  then it can be a nightmare / often impossible.

 

And the Non-O stamp problem has been reported at other offices, also - some saying  no such thing is possible anywhere in the country - even when the official forms and instructions are shown to them - insisting one must go to a consulate overseas for a Non-O Visa to start the process.

 

It is the general inconsistency of the rules by office which makes this letter-change all the more problematic.  Bangkok could draft a nice, clean set of standards (we can only hope), but every office may still make up their own "local-rules" and use those, instead.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Interesting option, any restrictions / differences on the 2nd extension (e.g. is it like the 60 days you get for visiting a dependent or do you also get 1 year) 

The 60 day extension is only to visit a Thai family member.

It is a one year extension based upon the others extension for being a family member of them. 

[Pattaya46]

38 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

No.  Many of us could get an embassy letter based on our (not fake) gross worldwide income.  This is 100% in accordance with the law, and long-standing practice.  //

Hum... Very unsure about the Gross Income. Thai Immigration never wrote that.

I am pretty sure that what Thai Immigration wants to know is

the amount of money you are able to spend in Thailand, e.g. your Net Income...

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Hum... Very unsure about the Gross Income. Thai Immigration never wrote that.

I am pretty sure that what Thai Immigration wants to know is

the amount of money you are able to spend in Thailand, e.g. your Net Income...

It is gross income. That has been discussed before in other topics .

[mogandave]

Hum... Very unsure about the Gross Income. Thai Immigration never wrote that.
I am pretty sure that what Thai Immigration wants to know is
the amount of money you are able to spend in Thailand, e.g. your Net Income...

What you could spend would be your gross income plus whatever savings you have, yes?

[usacb500biker]

8 years in a rented condo.  THANK YOU, thai imminigration for kicking me in the Axx  moving to Cambodia, Laos ECT....

[Pattaya46]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It is gross income. That has been discussed before in other topics .

If so, Ok.

But if you declare 70'000 (gross) - that allows you Retirement Extension - when in reality you only have 50'000 available  (net), it seems to me like another way to cheat on TI rules... 

 

People of many countries don't even have this possibility. They have to declare their Net Income for their embassy letter. (about -30% for France)