Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Pattaya46]

19 minutes ago, ThaidDown said:

The 2010 figures quoted were taken from the countrywide census taken in that year so should have some validity as to the situation in that year. How they have changed in the last eight years anyone's guess.

I can tell you for my country, France :

Annual report on French population abroad show a steady growth in Thailand of a bit more than 3% on the 10 last years.

The 2010 figure show 22'486 while the estimate for 2018 is about 29'000  (3.1% average, 29% on 8 years)

Probably similar for other European countries, except UK.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Oztruckie]

17 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The agents are already under scrutiny with some being arrested and charged in Bangkok.

Don't jump off the ship just yet because this does not involve the Australian Embassy as the procedure there is different to the UK and the USA.

Visited Oz embassy 2 days ago for my Stat Dec, lady said there's been no correspondence about their procedures regarding the Stat Dec, she just told me if and when it happens it'll be posted onto their web site. 

[galt67]

4 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

You talk as if you think Westerners have a right to live here. They don't.

Quite understandably, if the Thai government allows aliens to live in their country, they want something in return. Money.

And not just the same money that their own citizens can live on. They don't want cheap non-citizens, they want quality. The same type of quality when they mention "quality tourists". i.e affluent.

This in not unique to Thailand, other countries in SE Asia also stipulate the minimum amount that must be deposited in their country. Some more, some less.

If it helps your comprehension, think of retiring in Thailand as a Thai governmental backed business.

1

Nails it regarding 'they (Thai Gov) want quality.'

 

Unlike 20+ years ago when TH was a 3rd world, poor country, desperate for tourists, foreign investment, etc., it has changed.

 

It's clearly MUCH wealthier (see GDP), has 5-10X more tourists, and is now becoming 'picky' about who they want here.

 

Proof? See the increased enforcement (scrutiny) of many visa regs over the past four years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JLCrab]

14 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

LA (Hollywood) is turn in paperwork today and tomorrow pick up.

If spending whatever amount of time in the USA for you to get all the medical and criminal reports and have the 800K baht $ equiv. in the US bank and get the O-A visa from the LA consulate is OK with you, that's fine.

 

I stay 700+ miles from the Washington DC Embassy and by the time I rent a car and stay in hotels and buy domestic air tickets for even an extra 2-3 weeks, I can maybe pay for most of the Elite Visa right there.

Edited October 27, 2018 by JLCrab

[Thaidream]

19 minutes ago, galt67 said:

t seems there four, certain options for most based on today's information:

1) Do NOT stay in LOS 'long-term'

2) O-A Visa from US (home country)

3) Purchase a Thai Elite Visa

4) 400/800k TH bank deposit

 

Regarding the 'income option', much is speculation about requirements thus is NOT a 'certain' method.

 

Choose one of the four, IMO.

If married legally to a Thai -

 

All that mentioned above plus

 

-40K400K in bank

-Multiple entry Visa with no financials from Savannakhet Laos and a few other Embassies with financials/ Also obtainable from USA- need marriage cert plus a few other docs. Good for 1 year each entry 90 days

-Single Entry O Visa from various Thai Embassies 90 day single stay show marriage cert and a few other docs

-60 day extension from Thai Imm-bring wife- god for each entry

 

Retirement or Marriage= ways to do it- some easy and some not so easy

[marcusarelus]

24 minutes ago, galt67 said:

I've looked at those stats (chart) from 2010 and don't perceive any errors...?

 

What am I missing?

 

I'm unaware of any surge in foreign retirees here but instead, arguably, a decrease. If true, the expats have less economic influence than before.

 

 

UK is overstated by a bunch as a result of the collapse of the pound vs the baht as is Australia.  That is obvious looking at Pattaya.  Restaurants that used to be 99% British are now 1% British. 

[stephenterry]

4 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Was the letter not withdrawn because the Embassies could not or would not VERIFY that the incomes stated were true. 

I have also written to Mr Hunt @ FCO, my MP and the British Embassy expressing my disgust.

The key word is 'verify', and it is possible that interpretation (by both TI and BE) of that word is unclear owing to translation differences.

 

I am positive BE could have worded the letter differently that would satisfy TI if they were willing to do so. I understand that a recent FCO audit recommended that the Income letter should be discontinued (possibly as a cost savings exercise), and BE used the above excuse to justify it to the Brit populace living here.

 

IMO, TI would accept anything official issued by the BE so that they would not be held responsible for any subsequent activity. The BE, for example, could notarize the letter by stating that the financial information submitted by Mr(s) X is as follows, and meets BE disclosure requirements (which is why we have to complete their form).  

 

And as the TI officer merely sees the letter and calculates the conversion rate into Thai baht indicates that a similar wording (to my suggestion) would suffice.

[Mac98]

11 hours ago, HHTel said:

The British equivalent is not a sworn affidavit but a letter confirming the documents they have seen.  In my case, I submitted 1 years bank statements (each transfer in is accompanied on the statement by who transferred it), along with letters from my pension companies and a copy of the UK P60 which shows tax paid in the UK.

The problem with this is that none of that is verification.  I see the same problem with any embassy.  They can confirm the evidence, but that's all it is.  It's not verification.

A driver's license is evidence you can drive, not verification. You have to operate under common sense rules and penalize the violators, not just shut down the system.

[sirineou]

6 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

2 hours ago, Phil90 said:

It's a super scummy move because as a previous poster stated, a lot of elderly people won't make the proper arrangements to ensure that the money is returned to their heirs when they die.  It's also way more money than anybody actually needs to live very comfortably in Thailand.  The average annual Thai household income is only a little over $3,000.  Why should an single retired person need 7 times more income just to prove they can "support themselves" than an average "Thai household".  Of course it's a scummy scam like many things in Thailand. Even if you expect a much higher standard of living you can easily get by comfortably, even as a couple on 1/2 - 2/3 of that income requirement.

You talk as if you think Westerners have a right to live here. They don't.

Quite understandably, if the Thai government allows aliens to live in their country, they want something in return. Money.

And not just the same money that their own citizens can live on. They don't want cheap non-citizens, they want quality. The same type of quality when they mention "quality tourists". i.e affluent.

This in not unique to Thailand, other countries in SE Asia also stipulate the minimum amount that must be deposited in their country. Some more, some less.

If it helps your comprehension, think of retiring in Thailand as a Thai governmental backed business.

In additions to what MCseismic sad, If i might also add  Thai people require less money to live  in Thailand because this being their country they have some major advantages over foreigners living here,

  This is their culture  so they don't need to adjust, They are not retired so they can work, and there are many more options of what type of work they can do, they have a family network to depend on , free or low cost medical care and other Thai benefits.

IMO The amount required for a retirement extension to stay is reasonable but it is not progressive. IMO allowances should be made if one owns his/hers own home mortgage free, and or if one pays for medical insurance. This IMO opinion would be more fair and induce more people to own homes and or have medical insurance,  both  a good thing for the expat and for Thailand.

[Suradit69]

15 hours ago, garyk said:

I am going to wait until the dust settles to make my decision.

That's an important, if not always obvious when reading through this thread, point.

 

90% of what everyone, including me, is worrying about is still conjecture and, given the usual negativity here at TV, much of it envisions the worst possible outcome.

 

I'm lucky in that I should be able to do my next extension soon and that will carry me through January 2020, but I think the door is still open for many others to get extensions for at least that long.

 

I'm not naive, but I assume Thai immigrations will come to grips with the upheaval all this may cause over the next year and come up with something that will still work for the majority of us without causing too much damage to the  long-stay options available to people who want to stay here and who do spend money.

 

The embassies, while not a beacon of hope, may recognize some of the issues faced by their own citizens and offer some useful advice to immigrations on realistic requirements. Thai Immigration officials have sought and taken advice from the embassies before, so it's not unheard of.

 

All the conjecture is very upsetting , but as you said, most of us have  time to make decisions once the dust has settled. Better to work out some potential options for yourself but wait to see what actually happens.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Suradit69

[spidermike007]

23 hours ago, garyk said:

I think it is strictly a way to put money in the system period. Their are not that many expats from the U.S. living here.

 

You are right. Biggest Joke is the most corrupt of them all, having come from the RTP. So, he is bringing that mentality to immigration, even more so than before. He is trying to get them to understand it is all a big franchise. Income statements will not be necessary. Only someone in immigration to sign off for you, for a hefty fee.

Edited October 27, 2018 by spidermike007

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, galt67 said:

Nails it regarding 'they (Thai Gov) want quality.'

 

Unlike 20+ years ago when TH was a 3rd world, poor country, desperate for tourists, foreign investment, etc., it has changed.

 

It's clearly MUCH wealthier (see GDP), has 5-10X more tourists, and is now becoming 'picky' about who they want here.

 

Proof? See the increased enforcement (scrutiny) of many visa regs over the past four years.

Not disputing the ongoing policy-shifts, but unless a country "ran out of poor people" - it would be unwise to deter foreign-wealth spending into the country, which literally lifts the poor out of poverty with job/business opportunities. 

 

If like my country (USA), most in power don't give a hoot about working-class citizens, and carelessly throw them under the bus.  Making it more difficult for retirees (and self-funded under-50s) to stay in Thailand, while admitting huge numbers of poor people to take jobs here (L-Visas), is doing exactly that.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

MO, TI would accept anything official issued by the BE so that they would not be held responsible for any subsequent activity. The BE, for example, could notarize the letter by stating that the financial information submitted by Mr(s) X is as follows, and meets BE disclosure requirements (which is why we have to complete their form).  

 

And as the TI officer merely sees the letter and calculates the conversion rate into Thai baht indicates that a similar wording (to my suggestion) would suffice

We have been going around and around on this-

 

No one, anywhere, can go to the actual sources and verify income as most countries have Data Protection Laws and Privacy Acts.  I have tried it=  to assist other people when working in the US.  Most of the time you cannot even verify employments.

 

IMO-  per negotiation with Thai Imm- every Embassy can do an Affidavit in which a citizen writes in  their income (It is not called an income letter)  and the source.  The blank Affidavit  has your  name, address and identifying info.  The Consul says sign the letter- he/she says do your swear under Oath of penalty of perjury the info submitted is true and correct. You say yes- the Consul signs- the letter is embossed with the seal.

 

The US Embassy will continue to do Affidavits after 1 Jan 2019-They will not do an income letter  after 1 Jan 2019 but they will do an income letter until 31 Dec 2018

  While Thai Imm has already said they will accept  the current Embassy Income Letter dated not later than 31 December  2018 from the US and UK Embassies for 6 months-hence- meaning  through June 2019 -exact date  will depend on the date of your Embassy Letter.  Get an extension early so the letter remains valid. ( For  Example if your Embassy Letter is date 15 December 2018- it is good for 6 months- approx till  15 June 2019)

 

After Jan 1, 2019  the UK and US will not provide Income Letters and as far as I know the UK Embassy does not do blank affidavits.  The US Embassy does do blank affidavits-(Go to US Embassy Website and there is a sample copy)  However- would the Thai Imm accept an Embassy Letter in the form of a blank affidavit from a US Citizen dated after Jan 1, 2019- Have no idea -I am waiting for clarification from the US Embassy and I have sent them an email.

 

I have done several Blank Affidavits related to income at the US Embassy Bangkok for child support and other- they have been accepted  in the Us. as proof of income with some back up docs sent.  Again- would Thai Imm accept these after  Jan 1- Don't know but I want to find out. 

[certacito]

15 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Thai Immigration officials have sought and taken advice from the embassies before, so it's not unheard of.

 

Examples?

[certacito]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

However- would the Thai Imm accept an Embassy Letter in the form of a blank affidavit from a US Citizen dated after Jan 1, 2019- Have no idea -I am waiting for clarification from the US Embassy and I have sent them an email.

 

You are asking the US embassy if Thai immigration will accept the affadavit? You are asking the wrong people ????

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, certacito said:

You are asking the US embassy if Thai immigration will accept the affadavit? You are asking the wrong people

First Step= I am asking the US Embassy if after Jan1, 2019 I can use a Blank Affidavit- shown on their website- not addressed to anyone- write in my income information and will they sign it.  If yes- next step will be to ask Thai imm if they will accept it.

[Jeffrey346]

Someone said BKK Bank NY will no longer take ACH transfers after April 1, 2019.

Does anyone know of a US bank that will open an account online without a US address?

[user7969876]

  16 hours ago, Pib said:

The Bt800K I keep as big money in case I need it "immediately, right now, today, an emergency, etc" and for retirement extension of stay purposes.  Got tired of the embassy letter process and associated $50 a year to get it.   The money earns 1.3% right now (use to be around 2.3% until interest rates started going down) in a Krungsri Mee Tai Dai saving accounts which comes with a debit card and ibanking....can withdraw any amount of funds at any time without any interest penalties.  This current 1.3% is more than U.S. checking accounts pay, but yes, some money and savings accounts pay a little more.  And it's more than the typical 0.5% or less for a regular Thai savings account.  Plus, I don't have a fear of having the money in Thailand.

 

 

 

Hi Pib

This is an elegant solution, a few questions if I may.

Do you get a bank book?

The required bank letter, is it required on the same day as the application to Immigration?

What does it say?

Do you have the bank book updated at the same time, assuming you have one?

If no bank book what do you provide as evidence of the deposit sum and period?

Regards

Brian

[Suradit69]

1 minute ago, certacito said:

 

Examples?

At one point Thai immigrations decided that the embassy income verification letter would only be accepted if issued very near to when someone applied for an extension ... I don't remember whether it would have been only be a few days before or a week or what.

 

The US embassy (and maybe others) explained why that would be unduly burdensome and suggested 6 months. Immigrations accepted that.

 

There are probably other examples, but that is at least one case that I know of.

 

Apparently there was some meeting regarding the required verification of income recently. Obviously that didn't go well, but it's possible immigrations didn't expect that the embassies would react by refusing to issue further letters.  Maybe, and I am speculating, there will be some additional effort to resolve this. Unfortunately in today's' geo-political environment, some governments are loathe to be seen to be accepting pressure from certain western countries.

 

I know people generally have a low opinion of the embassies' interest in their citizens residing in Thailand, but I do think there is communications between embassy officials and people in the Ministry of Home Affairs/ Immigrations. 

[KenKadz]

Thoughts......

1. Interesting that the governments of the U.K. and the U.S.A. have just publicly announced that they have been lying to the government of Thailand for years. Not very smart!

2. Are these decisions made "locally" by Embassy Foreign Service employees, Local Hire (Thai) employees, or being mandated by the Home Office and Dept. of State?

3. If a person has documented official statements of income from government agencies and/or banks what is the problem, lazy and inept embassy employees?

4. Might be time for U.S. and U.K. citizens to demand the Inspector General of the respective agency to get involved.

5. Wonder why this is happening now after years of potential abuse?

Why is it only U.S. and U.K embassies so far, all others say nothing has changed.

6. Is this decision initiated by the Thai government or Embassy staff?

7. The Thai government shares in the confusion by not making the regulations and/or requirements public, understandable, (posted in writing in the offices), and allowing each immigration office and Thai embassy to operate ant way they want with no standardization.

Other than a letter from an embassy or bank account does Thai immigration define any other forms for verifying income?

[RCS]

4 minutes ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Someone said BKK Bank NY will no longer take ACH transfers after April 1, 2019.

Does anyone know of a US bank that will open an account online without a US address?

I use a Schwab brokerage account in the US for that purpose since I also don't have a US address.  It is called a Schwab One account and is opened through their SF office.  It is not technically a bank but provides Debit card and Checking services as well as stock brokerage services.  My SS payments are direct deposited and then periodically I do an online wire transfer to my SCB account.  I suspect other brokerage companies like Ameritrade offer similar services.

[Jeffrey346]

3 minutes ago, RCS said:

I use a Schwab brokerage account in the US for that purpose since I also don't have a US address.  It is called a Schwab One account and is opened through their SF office.  It is not technically a bank but provides Debit card and Checking services as well as stock brokerage services.  My SS payments are direct deposited and then periodically I do an online wire transfer to my SCB account.  I suspect other brokerage companies like Ameritrade offer similar services.

Thanks, I'll check it out..

[losworld]

totally unnecessary for Thailand to do at this time.

Edited October 27, 2018 by losworld

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

I just confirmed with my US bank that a single transfer to my Thai Bank would cost $45.  So the 65,000 Baht per month transfer scheme would cost me $540 per year.  Therefore, if my Dec Extension is not approved then as they say adios.  

 

You can do it for $30 using Transferwise and might also get a slightly better exchange rate.

 

https://www.finder.com/transferwise

$25 if you open a Schwab one account (but I think you need to invest some money to do so, not sure the minimum amount)

 

https://international.schwab.com/public/international/accounts_products/accounts/brokerage_account

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

More like $22.

 

[JAFO]

I live here with my wife on a Marriage Visa. Pretty easy and straight forward. I keep a permanent address in the states and always will. I sustain all my money in the states and transfer once a year from my U.S bank to BKK NY to comply with the annual marriage visa extension requirements and my wife and I live off that. Costs me $3

 

As for the affidavit process stopping, It was really overdue. I knew a few that told me about the process some years ago and that they never verify. So you swear, they notarize and that's it.  Those few guys I know do not have the monthly cash to stay. This affidavit process being eliminated will send many packing I would suspect or back to endless border runs.

Edited October 27, 2018 by JAFO

[Suradit69]

15 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Because every Embassy is in the same position.

Thai Immigration want the Embassies to 'verify' the income being declared.

Other than 'state pensions' paid by the Government they cannot 'verify' income from private institutions.

Your statement, as in an 'affidavit' or 'stat dec' does not 'verify' your income.

 

And if all or most of the embassies with large expat communities took the same stand it might cause a rethink on the part of immigrations.

 

Just because the Australian embassy may continue to issue the income letter doesn't mean immigrations will continue to accept it if the Oz embassy won't guarantee they have verified the income. The statutory declaration is not the same as verifying the amount claimed.

[RCS]

Now that Income Affidavits are being discontinued, rather than all this useless speculation about what is required in future as proof of monthly income, why not just go to your local Thai Immigration office and politely ask.  In all probability they are also confused and don't really know.  There may be different requirements in different districts.  But at least if everyone is asking them directly about it they will be motivated to get some clear guidelines and publish them.

[JLCrab]

43 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Income statements will not be necessary. Only someone in immigration to sign off for you, for a hefty fee.

You are leaving when?

[losworld]

49 minutes ago, sirineou said:

In additions to what MCseismic sad, If i might also add  Thai people require less money to live  in Thailand because this being their country they have some major advantages over foreigners living here,

  This is their culture  so they don't need to adjust, They are not retired so they can work, and there are many more options of what type of work they can do, they have a family network to depend on , free or low cost medical care and other Thai benefits.

IMO The amount required for a retirement extension to stay is reasonable but it is not progressive. IMO allowances should be made if one owns his/hers own home mortgage free, and or if one pays for medical insurance. This IMO opinion would be more fair and induce more people to own homes and or have medical insurance,  both  a good thing for the expat and for Thailand.

If Americans had taken the same attitude as this there would be very few if any Vietnamese, Thais etc. living the good life in the USA.  I say reciprocity is in order.