Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[JimGant]

Quote

If they want cash- cash they'll get-

Yep. And that's apparently where we are headed.

 

Quote

it proves nothing  as far as whether an applicant actually has an income stream of 65K per month.

Ah, but you're wrong. Cash flow coming into Thailand is the only way you'll prove an "income stream" acceptable to the Thais (better call it cash flow, as some of that money coming to Thailand may be from a recent inheritance). If it's not coming into Thailand, the Thais won't care that maybe the only income stream going on is between you and your former wife living in the Bahamas.

[Lovethailandelite]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

Since when have the American, Australian and British Embassies been responsible for prescribing Thai immigration policy?

 

As far as the British Embassy are concerned, this particular British retiree is intending to treat their claim that it will, in future, be possible to meet the retirement extension income requirement merely by transferring 65k each month into a Thai bank account with an exceedingly large pinch of salt, until such time as this is explicitly confirmed by the Immigration Bureau.

You appear to suffer from some type of learning difficulty or at least an understanding of how protocol between Embassy's and the host country operates.
None of them are prescribing Thai policy in the slightest. Do you think they made the announcement up of how it now needs to proceed without consultation with the Thai authorities?
Whether you choose to accept it or not, doesn't matter.
Once again, this big announcement you want to keep on about from immigration, has already been announced, on the respective country websites via and with the agreement of the Thai authorities.
You can simply sit there and wait for ever or start making your plans around the guidance.
One thing is certain, unless you comply with the guidance your application will be rejected outright with no income letter if you intend to use the income method.
Anybody that surmises they will be applying with foreign bank statements, ATM slips, credit cards or anything other than a freshly updated Thai bank account bank book, and a bank stamped letter making referral to the said Thai bank account, is in for a rude awakening.
Your call.

[mogandave]

I think using a US bank should be okay, but we’re still likely to get a signed/certified statement which will be a big PITA.

Also, the bank account can only have one name on it, which might be an issue for some...

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

h, but you're wrong. Cash flow coming into Thailand is the only way you'll prove an "income stream" acceptable to the Thais (better call it cash flow, as some of that money coming to Thailand may be from a recent inheritance). If it's not coming into Thailand, the Thais won't care that maybe the only income stream going on is between you and your former wife living in the Bahamas.

No problem- I'll use the ATM machine outside Bangkok bank- take 65K out of my account and go inside and place it in my Thai account. I can do that every month- it certainly shows I have an income stream-  of some type but it doesn't show I actually have a guaranteed income because there is no source documents to prove the source-My ATM receipts show it came from abroad .  Actually the police order doesn't even say it has to be foreign sourced and that is why agents can simply 'loan' the money. If Thai Imm isn't really  interested in proving  one has a guaranteed income stream- the source should be of no concern.

[Jingthing]

29 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You're kidding, right?

Not at all.

I really don't know where you're coming from.

You take my comment out of context and that is obnoxious.

The point was it's easy to prove that we have the MECHANCIAL CAPABILITY to get funds outside Thailand into Thailand.

Showing a successful SWIFT transfer does that.

Showing a foreign statement showing a flow into Thailand does that.

Showing a valid debit card on an account where the claimed income is flowing does that.

I wasn't talking about fully proving income.

I was talking about showing you have the capability to import.

You're actually advocating for something very onerous and new. Requiring income based applicants to import ALL of claimed income into Thailand (done monthly apparently) which is something that just does not work for many foreigners that do indeed have the claimed income. 

I find it bizarre and sad that some foreigners (such as you) are more hard core anti-foreigner than Thai immigration policies have been up to now.

As it stands, with an income letter, there has never been any requirement to fully import.
What other draconian changes are you lobbying for?

If TI is going to go there, so be it. But foreigners cheerleading for onerous changes I find NAUSEATING. 

[JLCrab]

I am presuming if the monthly income method of extension is preserved at all, that a foreign transfer transaction each month of 65K+ baht as noted in a passbook savings account will be acceptable evidence. If Thai IMM officials, in their wisdom, decide that other ways are also viable, then great.

 

But the SWIFT transfer into a Thai passbook account is one thing that I can do today, so I am.

Edited November 8, 2018 by JLCrab

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Anybody that surmises they will be applying with foreign bank statements, ATM slips, credit cards or anything other than a freshly updated Thai bank account bank book, and a bank stamped letter making referral to the said Thai bank account, is in for a rude awakening.
Your call.

I can accept anything they come up with but what you have to accept is the fact that the Embassies have handled this poorly and without any input from their citizens. This is not the way a decision should be made.  The UK/USA/AUS have open societies and its citizens have an expectation that its representatives overseas, who by the way, are paid by tax money, provide a complete picture into decisions and how they are reached. the anger out there is that this is a life changing decision for many and they were not allowed to participate in the decision or offer any alternate solutions that could have been acceptable.   Have a nice day!!

[mogandave]

Prudent for who- it proves nothing- i can  get 800K today from a money lender- send it to the US and have it sent back., I can write a check on my US account for the same and deposit it here. It will clear in 2 weeks-
I can cash in all my travelers checks and put the money in a Thai bank.  I can carry  the money in cash  -stop in Hong Kong and send it to Thailand or simply stop at Customs in Bangkok  and declare it as foreign sourced and then put it in the bank or drop it on the Immigration officers desk. If they want cash- cash they'll get- let's just be honest and say it proves nothing  as far as whether an applicant actually has an income stream of 65K per month. If they don't care that's fine but why did they even want an Embassy letter in the first place- if they didn't care?
 

They do not care that you have an “income stream”. If they did, they would not allow you to deposit the 800k in a Thai bank.

They care that you are not broke (skint?)

If you have $800k in the bank here, they figure it should last you a year. If you still have it next year, you can stay another year, effectively proving you have an “income stream”

I doubt very much the’ll come up with something that the cheaters are not able to get around.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

They do not care that you have an “income stream”. If they did, they would not allow you to deposit the 800k in a Thai bank.

They care that you are not broke (skint?)

If you have $800k in the bank here, they figure it should last you a year. If you still have it next year, you can stay another year, effectively proving you have an “income stream”

I doubt very much the’ll come up with something that the cheaters are not able to get around.
 

 

That is true for the bank method. For the bank method the required income is zero baht and the required annual import into Thailand is zero baht. 

 

But the income letter issues are not about the bank method. They are about the income method. For the income method, of course they do want "proof" of income.

 

Different methods. Best not to conflate them.

[joevanwyck]

10 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I am presuming if the monthly income method of extension is preserved at all, that a foreign transfer transaction each month of 65K+ baht as noted in a passbook savings account will be acceptable evidence. If Thai IMM officials, in their wisdom, decide that other ways are also viable, then great.

 

But the SWIFT transfer into a Thai passbook account is one thing that I can do today, so I am.

Ditto

[mogandave]

I can accept anything they come up with but what you have to accept is the fact that the Embassies have handled this poorly and without any input from their citizens. This is not the way a decision should be made.  The UK/USA/AUS have open societies and its citizens have an expectation that its representatives overseas, who by the way, are paid by tax money, provide a complete picture into decisions and how they are reached. the anger out there is that this is a life changing decision for many and they were not allowed to participate in the decision or offer any alternate solutions that could have been acceptable.   Have a nice day!!

How do you imagine you should have been involved?

[JimGant]

Quote

I was talking about showing you have the [MECHANICAL CAPABILITY} to import.

That's nice. I'm talking about one having the required disposable cash flow stipulated by Thai authorities to qualify as a welcomed expat. If somehow they came up with a method to prove money sitting in a foreign bank is, indeed, available for transit to Thailand, I'd welcome that.

 

And, for sure, this is going to flush out some, probably many, that don't have the means stipulated by Thailand. I would certainly, then, endorse Thailand lowering the monthly rate for "retirees" from 65k to 40k. Why a married man needs less to live on than a retiree is one of those questions I hope Thai Immigration ponders in depth.  I really feel the Thais will be more accommodating than seems apparent right now....

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

How do you imagine you should have been involved?

The 3 Embassies- US/UK/AUTS after the meeting in May could have sent out a message or placed info on their website asking for input into the issue and a solution. they could have asked for a group of concerned citizens to meet and be briefed on this issue and asked for opinions.  they could have conducted a survey on possible solutions.  They could have asked for assistance from the US/UK/AUS Chamber's of Commerce.

 

Instead . they simply made their own decision without any input from the stakeholders, the people who have to live with the decision. That is not my idea of a representative government and how issues are to be decided.

 

 

[JLCrab]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

they could have asked for a group of concerned citizens to meet and be briefed on this issue and asked for opinions. 

Maybe they wanted to be able to make it home for dinner.

[JackThompson]

32 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Once again, this big announcement you want to keep on about from immigration, has already been announced, on the respective country websites via and with the agreement of the Thai authorities.

I tend to think what you are claiming is a probable outcome.  But if so, then the embassies or TI need to be very clear about it - which the existing statements are not.  Here's a hopeful example (currently incomplete fiction):

 

Quote

 

"We have confirmed with Thai Immigration that anyone showing deposits of 65K Baht/mo into a Thai bank account for (x) months (conditions: 1st time, subsequent) will have met the financial qualifications for retirement-based extensions. 

 

"With regard to the combination method, an applicant can (something here)."

 

(... and here the fiction gets really thick ...)

 

"And unlike some previous rules, the highest authority in Thai Immigration has assured us these methods of meeting the financial qualifications, as described above, will be enforced consistently in each and every immigration office in the country for every applicant, and that IOs ignoring these rules, or adding unofficial-rules, will be immediately fined, fired, and investigated for corruption."

 

 

Or, TI could publish something of a similar nature.  But I won't hold my breath. 

 

I expect to find out via "office-by-office" reports on this website, what is put into practice for those affected - some not even remotely similar to the policies of others.  But I would like to be pleasantly surprised by being wrong about that.

[OJAS]

23 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

You appear to suffer from some type of learning difficulty or at least an understanding of how protocol between Embassy's and the host country operates.
None of them are prescribing Thai policy in the slightest. Do you think they made the announcement up of how it now needs to proceed without consultation with the Thai authorities?
Whether you choose to accept it or not, doesn't matter.
Once again, this big announcement you want to keep on about from immigration, has already been announced, on the respective country websites via and with the agreement of the Thai authorities.
You can simply sit there and wait for ever or start making your plans around the guidance.
One thing is certain, unless you comply with the guidance your application will be rejected outright with no income letter if you intend to use the income method.
Anybody that surmises they will be applying with foreign bank statements, ATM slips, credit cards or anything other than a freshly updated Thai bank account bank book, and a bank stamped letter making referral to the said Thai bank account, is in for a rude awakening.
Your call.

"Do you think they made the announcement up of how it now needs to proceed without consultation with the Thai authorities?"

 

If they did, then how come individual immigration offices are being reported on here as still insisting on no change to the Embassy letter requirement, even after the middle of next year?

 

"You can simply sit there and wait for ever or start making your plans around the guidance."

 

Yeah right, then, I should provide proof of 65k monthly transfers into my Thai account when I next apply for a retirement extension in July, and risk having the application rejected because of the lack of an Embassy letter! Despite the fact that you clearly consider me to be some moronic idiot (many thanks for the back-handed "compliment", by the way), do you really take me to be so much of a fool as to continue putting all my eggs into the monthly income basket based on questionable guidance issued by my Embassy?

 

"One thing is certain, unless you comply with the guidance your application will be rejected outright with no income letter if you intend to use the income method."

 

What on earth are you banging on about here? I thought that the issue was that income letters were being discontinued by certain embassies!

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 I really feel the Thais will be more accommodating than seems apparent right now....

 

That's nice wishful thinking, but right now, I'm failing to see any sign or indication from the Thai end of things that's likely to be the case. Nothing at all.

 

In fact, some posters here who have been asking at their local Immigration offices have been getting told that bank deposits will be the only allowed method moving forward, and that there won't be any monthly income method at all. (Now, whether that will turn out to be the actual official Immigration policy remains to be seen.)   But it's certainly not a good sign.

 

One of the other issues that needs to be fleshed out here is why Immigration seems to have focused on the US, UK and Australian embassies -- and we've heard little to nothing from other embassies, including those with even larger expat populations here like the Chinese and Japanese.

 

I doubt other embassies have any better ability or willingness to officially verify monthly income to Immigration's satisfaction than the Brits, Americans or Australians do.  And yet, the announcements of income letter cancellations thus far seem to be limited to just those western countries. Why?

 

A suspicious person might even begin to wonder if it's not a targeted attempt on Immigration's part. Although, some posters here also also reported being told by their local offices that NO income affidavits will be honored next year, regardless of the issuing country. But still, the disparity gives cause for wonder.

[OJAS]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's nice wishful thinking, but right now, I'm failing to see any sign or indication from the Thai end of things that's likely to be the case. Nothing at all.

 

In fact, some posters here who have been asking at their local Immigration offices have been getting told that bank deposits will be the only allowed method moving forward, and that there won't be any monthly income method at all. (Now, whether that will turn out to be the actual official Immigration policy remains to be seen.)   But it's certainly not a good sign.

 

One of the other issues that needs to be fleshed out here is why Immigration seems to have focused on the US, UK and Australian embassies -- and we've heard little to nothing from other embassies, including those with even larger expat populations here like the Chinese and Japanese.

 

I doubt other embassies have any better ability or willingness to officially verify monthly income to Immigration's satisfaction than the Brits, Americans or Australians do.  And yet, the announcements of income letter cancellations thus far seem to be limited to just those western countries. Why?

 

A suspicious person might even begin to wonder if it's not a targeted attempt on Immigration's part. Although, some posters here also also reported being told by their local offices that NO income affidavits will be honored next year, regardless of the issuing country. But still, the disparity gives cause for wonder.

Agree 100%. I am also detecting some general trend for retirement extension applications to come under closer scrutiny judging from recent reports on here of Immigration home visits now being performed by certain offices (including CW, I believe). But whether or not this is also part of some possible overall Immigration strategy to which you refer cannot, of course, be proved one way or the other at the present time.

[Pattaya46]

10 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

One of the other issues that needs to be fleshed out here is why Immigration seems to have focused on the US, UK and Australian embassies -- 

"Seems to have", yes, because you as I have strictly no real information about what happened.

Nothing to indicate that TI targeted these embassies.

"Seems to be" that they decided alone that from now this letter is something the couldn't do anymore... or wouldn't... 

I stay on my point that strictly nothing changed from TI side.  (until proof that of the opposite)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

"Seems to have", yes, because you as I have strictly no real information about what happened.

Nothing to indicate that TI targeted these embassies.

"Seems to be" that they decided alone that from now this letter is something the couldn't do anymore... or wouldn't... 

I stay on my point that strictly nothing changed from TI side.  (until proof that of the opposite)

 

You don't find it odd, after all these weeks, that we've heard nothing similar from the Italian, German, Dutch, Sweden, France, etc etc embassies???

 

This whole debacle is not something the three western embassies initiated. It stemmed from meetings with Immigration where Immigration apparently began demanding some higher form of proof or verification than had been the case for all these many past years.

 

Why the change in demand for proof now? And why, thus far, have only certain embassies, based on public knowledge thus far, been subjected to that kind of demand?

 

[JimGant]

Quote

That's nice wishful thinking, but right now, I'm failing to see any sign or indication from the Thai end of things that's likely to be the case. Nothing at all.

Yeah, maybe so. I but I think this matter has Thai Immigration in total disarray at the moment. I'm just thinking positive for when the music stops -- when, hopefully, it's the ogre without a chair.

[Pattaya46]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

You don't find it odd, after all these weeks, that we've heard nothing similar from the Italian, German, Dutch, Sweden, France, etc etc embassies???

Odd ? What would you want they say ?

"Hello! We declare that we have nothing new to say" 

It's not in the habit of embassies to comment on other embassies decisions.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Odd ? What would you want they say ?

"Hello! We declare that we have nothing new to say" 

It's not in the habit of embassies to comment on other embassies decisions.

 

You've obviously missed the point. If Immigration is demanding a higher level of proof of all embassies that issue income letters/affidavits, then all the other countries' embassies would basically have two choices:

 

1. start demanding some stricter form of documentation from their citizens and/or a different review process, which they'd have to announce. Or

2. decide they can't meet Immigration's demands, and similarly announce that they won't be doing the letters any more.

 

In the case of all the various other embassies, we've heard nothing of the kind from any of them. So what does that mean?

 

Perhaps Immigration isn't making/hasn't made the same demands on them that they have on the US, UK and Aus???  And it's not like those countries are even individually the largest expat nations here in Thailand, because they're not.  The Chinese and Japanese are, among others.

 

I suppose another option is Immigration has made similar demands on the other countries embassies as well, and those embassies thus far have chosen just to ignore them. But if that's the case, there's going to be a lot of unhappy citizens from those countries when their income letters suddenly start getting rejected out of the blue.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pattaya46]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

You've obviously missed the point. If Immigration is demanding a higher level of proof of all embassies that issue income letters/affidavits,  //

IF... IF... IF...

but there is absolutely nothing to proof that TI is demanding more than before.

The demand of letters from embassies with "verified income" exists for years already.

Other embassies may think that they respect this demand, as always, so nothing to comment on.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

1. start demanding some stricter form of documentation from their citizens, which they'd have to announce. Or

2. decide they can't meet Immigration's demands, and similarly announce that they won't be doing the letters any more.

Actually- they could just indicate the letters would continue and they already are in compliance with Thai Imm.  No change necessary. I believe some of Europeans countries look at  'proof' and consider this verification enough and just go with it. I would also be surprised if Japan or China did anything different,

 

The question remains will Thai Imm at some point stop accepting all Embassy Letters from anyone.  To me, that would be confrontational unless each country has negotiated separately and agreed.

[fforest1]

47 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

 

If they did, then how come individual immigration offices are being reported on here as still insisting on no change to the Embassy letter requirement, even after the middle of next year?

 

Maybe the embassy letter will be required whether you can get one or not... 

 

Or maybe we could sneak into the Russian or Chinese embassy and get a letter...lol  

Edited November 8, 2018 by fforest1

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

IF... IF... IF...

but there is absolutely nothing to proof that TI is demanding more than before.

The demand of letters from embassies with "verified income" exists for years already.

Other embassies may think that they respect this demand, as always, so nothing to comment on.

 

The only "IF" part there is IF Immigration has been making the same demand of ALL embassies.

 

There's NO "IF" on the issue of Immigration demanding a higher standard of proof/verification. The British Embassy announcement made it clear that Immigration came to them as far back as May and took the position that what the Brits were doing already wasn't sufficient.

 

And, of course, what the Brits have been doing all along has been MORE rigorous than what the U.S. Embassy has been doing.

 

If you somehow believe that Immigration is NOT the driving force behind all this, then how do you explain the public statements made by the US, UK and Aus. embassies, and their decisions to stop issuing income letters?

 

[mogandave]

The 3 Embassies- US/UK/AUTS after the meeting in May could have sent out a message or placed info on their website asking for input into the issue and a solution. they could have asked for a group of concerned citizens to meet and be briefed on this issue and asked for opinions.  they could have conducted a survey on possible solutions.  They could have asked for assistance from the US/UK/AUS Chamber's of Commerce.
 
Instead . they simply made their own decision without any input from the stakeholders, the people who have to live with the decision. That is not my idea of a representative government and how issues are to be decided.
 
 

How do you know what they did. did not do, will do and will not do.

My California fishing license was changed such that that I can no longer take lobster without buying a stamp, they closed hundreds of square miles of prime fishing grounds and no longer allow rock fishing much of the year.

They never asked me.

Not sure what the Chamber of Commerce has to do with people that are not working.

[joevanwyck]

51 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

I certainly agree and keep my funds in Thailand limited and separate from my children”s inhertance, such as it is. My attitude and action says, what comes to Thailand stays in Thailand. Thus, I have sold my condo and will rent going forward. My Sons will need not be bothered with my life in Thailand as there’s inheritance will go directly to them in the US. As to possessions and funds in Thailand? They will be left to the Thai lady sharing my life, as stated in my Thai Will. While I utilize the monthly required income, there will be no 800K deposited in Thailand. As a free man, there are other countries if Thailand chooses not to welcome me and my spending.

Same here.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Actually- they could just indicate the letters would continue and they already are in compliance with Thai Imm.  No change necessary. I believe some of Europeans countries look at  'proof' and consider this verification enough and just go with it. I would also be surprised if Japan or China did anything different,

 

The question remains will Thai Imm at some point stop accepting all Embassy Letters from anyone.  To me, that would be confrontational unless each country has negotiated separately and agreed.

 

As I said above, that's why I'm very intrigued by the silence thus far from the various other embassies.

 

Immigration could indeed say they're still going to require embassy letters for monthly income documentation, and countries with embassies still issuing them would be able to have their citizens use them. Meaning Immigration has basically forced only selected countries out of the income letters business.

 

But frankly, I don't expect that to be the outcome, as that would have Immigration basically setting a double standard between the U.S., UK and Aus., and all the others.

 

If Immigration HAS taken the same position with all the other embassies and the other embassies are just ignoring them and continuing to issue income letters in the same way, as I said above, they're risking a very rude and unhappy surprise for their citizens at some point.