Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[luckyluke]

Lovethailandelite, you are right,

 

however this is the apathetic approach.

 

Some others here seems to be more committed, and hope T.I. or/and embassies will come out with a solving that can pleased all parties.

 

Will see.

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

You DO NOT need to give the embassy Power of Attorney, all you need to do is sign a document that gives your permission to wherever you derive your income from to release that information to the embassy. I have done this many times and it only involves just the organizations that you nominate.

That is slightly different than what you suggested before.

 

Your talking about completing an 'authorisation' form with your income/pension provider to release your information to a third named party. You can only give authority for one party though, not multiple parties.

[Pattaya46]

12 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

It will not be a big mess in Immigration Offices at all. You know what is in the Thai Immigration laws and that is what you must do. //

(First, I am luckily not concerned and could easily go the 800k route if required. )

The LAW says people with 65k income can get Retirement Extension, and doesn't talk about Embassy Letter 

Problems will start in January, when people unaware until then of their Embassy's decision will go to their Immigration Office without the letter. Do you really think they will not react when/if said that they can't get their Extension? I imagine some of them will strongly argue. So yes could be a mess for me.

[Lovethailandelite]

All these scenarios of what an embassy 'Could or couldn't' do is immaterial. They won't be doing it full stop.
The BE for instance, does not even notarise teachers degrees that are working here any longer. 
If your expecting them to suddenly become Credit checking agency's, you will be waiting a long while.
It won't be happening.

[Russell17au]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That is slightly different than what you suggested before.

 

Your talking about completing an 'authorisation' form with your income/pension provider to release your information to a third named party. You can only give authority for one party though, not multiple parties.

Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about. You can give permission to release your private information from as many organizations as you like, it only needs the right paperwork. If it means that you fill in 2 or 3 "authorisation" (I better get that correct or you would not know what I am talking about) then that is what you do.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, inThailand said:

the change is really about immigration waking up and realizing the embassy letters do not mean income was verified, so they will no longer except them. 

I guess they should have actually read the text of the letters being submitted all these years.  What they were, was written right there in black and white.

 

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

The income affidavits could be faked as well, yes?

Some offices required sending them to the MFA for verification, where they verify the consul's signature.  I had to do this in an attempt for a Non-O stamp. 

 

Not that it helped in that case - as people had begun overcoming that hurdle to avoid the 30K Baht agent-charge, so that desk in that office changed the rules again, and told me no income was acceptable - only "seasoned money in the bank."  The rules for a Non-O stamp do not require seasoning on the "money in the bank" route, and do allow income.  This was over a year ago, and according to some reports, the policy at that desk has changed again. 

 

Every office and every desk in the office making up its own rules," is hanging over whatever change they "officially" declare.

[Tanoshi]

33 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about. You can give permission to release your private information from as many organizations as you like, it only needs the right paperwork. If it means that you fill in 2 or 3 "authorisation" (I better get that correct or you would not know what I am talking about) then that is what you do.

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

According to the Policy schedule of my private Pension provider, I can complete an authorisation form naming one individual or organisation whom they will deal with.

Completing a second authorisation form is not an addition to the existing form, but supersedes it, like a Will would.

 

Perhaps your pension provider has a different policy schedule, but don't assume they are all prepared to deal with Tom, Dick and Harry.

[PhonThong]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about. You can give permission to release your private information from as many organizations as you like, it only needs the right paperwork. If it means that you fill in 2 or 3 "authorisation" (I better get that correct or you would not know what I am talking about) then that is what you do.

The same as giving a hospital permission to obtain your medical records from another hospital or doctor.

[mogandave]

Some offices required sending them to the MFA for verification, where they verify the consul's signature.  I had to do this in an attempt for a Non-O stamp. 
 
Not that it helped in that case - as people had begun overcoming that hurdle to avoid the 30K Baht agent-charge, so that desk in that office changed the rules again, and told me no income was acceptable - only "seasoned money in the bank."  The rules for a Non-O stamp do not require seasoning on the "money in the bank" route, and do allow income.  This was over a year ago, and according to some reports, the policy at that desk has changed again. 
 
Every office and every desk in the office making up its own rules," is hanging over whatever change they "officially" declare.

Actually, if one wanted to fake documents they could fake the passbook/book-bank and the bank letter with 800k and use the same passbook year after year.

I think it would be relatively easy for the US Consulate to provide a certified copy of your US tax transcript if they wanted to.

[jmd8800]

While this is pure speculation at this point I am one of the believers that the Thai government will be requiring a fixed deposit moving forward and that might be implemented in the next few years. In the eyes of the Thai gov't this is a very simple solution to address many aspects of long stayers. i.e. the ability to provide for oneself, medical expenses and possibly legal issues that may arise.

 

Deposit X number of $$$ (whatever currency) into a bank account and leave it there until you leave. One letter each year from the bank is confirmed by Thai immigration and one is good for another year. If medical or legal bills are deducted from this account one will have to top up the account for renewal. Something like that.

 

Will there be grandfather clauses? Would there be differing requirements for marriage or each different long stay? Probably. But who really knows.

 

Finding a way to maintain health insurance for foreigners is likely a pretty cumbersome thing to do, but that is best addressed by the Thai gove't as there have been attempts to do this before. Most people can probably pay expenses incurred but some cannot  so an account that is accessible by authorities when a bill cannot be paid with a system to appeal a hospital claim would probably go a long way to cover hospital losses.

 

Finding a way to verify income from countries that have very strict laws concerning privacy is at present the issue for income letters. I'm sure more will be revealed after the meeting Nov 20 in Chiang Mai. But I suspect the laws governing who can share what information is highly protected in the USA anyway. Look back at prosecuting organized crime figures. Or releasing Donald Trump's tax returns. It is not easy. And there is a reason for that... you don't want every one knowing your business.

 

Many people here will not like this. But Thailand has every right to set the rules and you can play by them or not, even if Thailand itself doesn't always play by the rules.

 

Ultimately anyone using income letters will just have to wait and see what develops. There are plenty of options for everyone .. they just might not be pleasant options. But we'll all survive.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

While this is pure speculation at this point I am one of the believers that the Thai government will be requiring a fixed deposit moving forward and that might be implemented in the next few years. In the eyes of the Thai gov't this is a very simple solution to address many aspects of long stayers. i.e. the ability to provide for oneself, medical expenses and possibly legal issues that may arise.

 

Deposit X number of $$$ (whatever currency) into a bank account and leave it there until you leave. One letter each year from the bank is confirmed by Thai immigration and one is good for another year. If medical or legal bills are deducted from this account one will have to top up the account for renewal. Something like that.

 

Will there be grandfather clauses? Would there be differing requirements for marriage or each different long stay? Probably. But who really knows.

 

Finding a way to maintain health insurance for foreigners is likely a pretty cumbersome thing to do, but that is best addressed by the Thai gove't as there have been attempts to do this before. Most people can probably pay expenses incurred but some cannot  so an account that is accessible by authorities when a bill cannot be paid with a system to appeal a hospital claim would probably go a long way to cover hospital losses.

 

Finding a way to verify income from countries that have very strict laws concerning privacy is at present the issue for income letters. I'm sure more will be revealed after the meeting Nov 20 in Chiang Mai. But I suspect the laws governing who can share what information is highly protected in the USA anyway. Look back at prosecuting organized crime figures. Or releasing Donald Trump's tax returns. It is not easy. And there is a reason for that... you don't want every one knowing your business.

 

Many people here will not like this. But Thailand has every right to set the rules and you can play by them or not, even if Thailand itself doesn't always play by the rules.

 

Ultimately anyone using income letters will just have to wait and see what develops. There are plenty of options for everyone .. they just might not be pleasant options. But we'll all survive.

I try to avoid predicting the future, but I think you are probably wrong. It may be that the bank account methods become the only option if the embassy letters go away for all, at least temporarily, but I simply don't believe that TI will alter the bank method to a fixed account requirement. Of course anything is possible.

Cheers.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

All these scenarios of what an embassy 'Could or couldn't' do is immaterial. They won't be doing it full stop.
The BE for instance, does not even notarise teachers degrees that are working here any longer. 
If your expecting them to suddenly become Credit checking agency's, you will be waiting a long while.
It won't be happening.

I never expected any Embassy to be able to verify from source that a document is genuine. Everyone knows it is impossible. If Thai Imm believes it is possible- they are misinformed and should have been advised by each Embassy of the impossibility of the task and the Embassy negotiate  a solution.

My issue is the way this has been carried out and the lack of any town meetings to discus the ramifications of these decisions.  Apparently, there was no negotiation. At the very least- all letters should be good for one year and should still be issued  through mid year with the cutoff 31 December 2019.  That would enable a sufficient transition for both the citizens and Thai Imm. It would give citizens  enough time to sell off some assets; get their finances in order or even leave Thailand.

 

 

I doubt the Embassy was aware of the difficulty such a decision has caused and what is worse- I am beginning to believe they don't care.  The way this announcement and the way this is being carried out shows the Embassies involved never considered  anything other than- NO more letters.

 

[JohnOFphon]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

 

I doubt the Embassy was aware of the difficulty such a decision has caused and what is worse- I am beginning to believe they don't care.  The way this announcement and the way this is being carried out shows the Embassies involved never considered  anything other than- NO more letters.

 

I agree 100%. Don't care

[Bill Miller]

On 10/26/2018 at 3:14 PM, Sheryl said:

Utter nonsense. Non citizens -- even green card holders (permanent residents) -- cannot vote anywhere in the US.

That bit of misinformation is based on a policy allowing non citizen  parents of school aged children to vote in some Cali school board elections. ONLY school board ballots.
A number  of  MAGA pundits have falsely claimed it as a blanket voting permission.

[onera1961]

33 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

fixed deposit moving forward and that might be implemented in the next few years.

If they want fixed deposit, they have to abandon annual extension renewal and 90-day reporting. I don't think it is going to happen. Nothing has changed for TI. They even don't have to issue any new police order. The existing police order will work if you can show 65K/40K every month coming to a Thai bank (no embassy letter)

[Sheryl]

 

Actually, if one wanted to fake documents they could fake the passbook/book-bank and the bank letter with 800k and use the same passbook year after year.

 

I think it would be relatively easy for the US Consulate to provide a certified copy of your US tax transcript if they wanted to.

 

Perhaps. But it would not be realistic to expect Thai IOs to be able to make sense of them.

 

Even some Americans can't understand these forms.

 

Ditto most other potential sources of proof. This is why the Embassy letter system began in the first place.

 

What Thai IOs can easily understand is letters and bank statements from Thai banks.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[PhonThong]

24 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If they want fixed deposit, they have to abandon annual extension renewal and 90-day reporting. I don't think it is going to happen. Nothing has changed for TI. They even don't have to issue any new police order. The existing police order will work if you can show 65K/40K every month coming to a Thai bank (no embassy letter)

Existing police order says nothing about the monthly income having to be deposited in a Thai Bank. Only says must show proof of income. Doesn't even say it must come from out of the country. If I am missing something, I wish someone would produce the order number.

[KiChakayan]

24 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If they want fixed deposit, they have to abandon annual extension renewal and 90-day reporting. 

Why on earth? It would ease the renewal process though. 90 days reporting is related to a different "police state" kind of requirement.

[mogandave]

Perhaps. But it would not be realistic to expect Thai IOs to be able to make sense of them. 

Even some Americans can't understand these forms.

 

Ditto most other potential sources of proof. This is why the Embassy letter system began in the first place.

 

What Thai IOs can easily understand is letters and bank statements from Thai banks.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

Yes, but at the same time the Consulate certified it they could stamp it and fill in the average monthly income.

 

EDIT: The tax transcript is a summary, and is generally not complex

[jimn]

28 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If they want fixed deposit, they have to abandon annual extension renewal and 90-day reporting. I don't think it is going to happen. Nothing has changed for TI. They even don't have to issue any new police order. The existing police order will work if you can show 65K/40K every month coming to a Thai bank (no embassy letter)

I think you need to stop posting on this subject. You have no idea how it works in reallity over here. You keep referring to the police order which those of us who live here (I know you dont) works differently in practice. No embassy letter no extension its as simple as that, unless TI issue a new directive. 

[mogandave]

I try to avoid predicting the future, but I think you are probably wrong. It may be that the bank account methods become the only option if the embassy letters go away for all, at least temporarily, but I simply don't believe that TI will alter the bank method to a fixed account requirement. Of course anything is possible.
Cheers.

I would think an account with 600k “cured” for the first time, never drops below 100k through the year and topped up to 600k just prior to renewal would be more fair..

[sqwakvfr]

I am in agreeement with the recent comments about the 800K Baht Deposit possibly turning into a “Locked” Deposit where the Retiree cannot access the money until the Visa/Ext of Stay expires.  The Philippines has three Retirement Visa options which are issued by the Philliphines Retirement Authority (https://pra.gov.ph/).

Option 1 is for 35 to 49 years old and a $50,000 Locked Deposit is required.

Option 2 is for 50 or older and this requires a $20,000 Locked Deposit

Option 3 is for 50 or older and this requires a $10,000 Locked Deposit + a $1,000 per month or greater pension.  

 

Of course this is Thailand and this kind of system might not work here.  

 

If the PI Retirement Visa is not something one likes then the PI Tourist Visa Scheme is another option.  A PI Tourist Visa can be extended for a maximum of 36 months.  After 36 Months in the PI one can do a “PI” Visa run and start the cycle again.  There are other options out there and I have been conducting research for 2020 and beyond.  

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I would think an account with 600k “cured” for the first time, never drops below 100k through the year and topped up to 600k just prior to renewal would be more fair..

 

Currently bank options are 400k marriage and 800k retirement. No 600k. I find your idea daft. What difference does it make if you spend down to 10 baht as long as you top up before the THREE MONTH seasoning period begins? 

[Bill Miller]

Wow. 174 pages already.
I am going to talk about some concerns, and I am not sure that anyone else has mentioned them yet. I had a stroke a few months ago, and though doing quite well in most respects still find reading a bit difficult.
I do honestly meet the current requirements for the income method, having something in the neighborhood of 100,000 baht AVERAGE monthly income. That is the key. My social security is a bit over 47,000 of that, and is regular as clockwork. The balance of my income is from a custodial account and is distributed quarterly. A portion is from dividend income, etc., but partially from principle, and is under the threshold amount such that I do not need to file a tax return every year.
My concern is if TI will accept my Thai bank records, and perhaps Bkk bank will write a letter, indicating an AVERAGE of more than 65,000 baht per month, or well more than the 800,000 baht yearly amount that is the ultimate goal.
I have had a difficult time getting my fiancee to understand the concept of "income average". so "no, darling, we do not have 100,000 baht to spend this month".
Am I likely to have any better luck with an Immigration Officer?
Do any of the visa agents work on the monthly income basis, or would I need to find one that, however they do it, manage to "prove" their clients have 800,000 seasoned baht?
I have until 12 Sept. 2019 according to my most recent visa from Savan., where incidentally they asked to see my bank book for the first time.  I did not have it, but they accepted a copy of the previous year's visa as "proof" that I had met the requirement then, and I guess presumably was still retired with an income. ????

[onera1961]

17 minutes ago, jimn said:

I think you need to stop posting on this subject. You have no idea how it works in reallity over here. You keep referring to the police order which those of us who live here (I know you dont) works differently in practice. No embassy letter no extension its as simple as that, unless TI issue a new directive. 

I know you're an expert and a seer who can see what TI will ask for in the future. How do you know I don't stay here? I am coming to Thailand for 14 years, for three years I stayed full time and then left for 5 years.

[OJAS]

34 minutes ago, jimn said:

I think you need to stop posting on this subject. You have no idea how it works in reallity over here. You keep referring to the police order which those of us who live here (I know you dont) works differently in practice. No embassy letter no extension its as simple as that, unless TI issue a new directive. 

Maybe there are some who have, indeed, been taken in by the delusional BS nonsense which the British Embassy has been spouting, claiming to have reached agreement with the IB on an alternative method of proving monthly income on the basis of transfers into Thai bank accounts! 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

Deposit X number of $$$ (whatever currency) into a bank account and leave it there until you leave.

If it was a reasonable amount, frozen by the Thai govt, and only used to cover actual costs - say 100K Baht total - and 70K was used as the deductible for emergency-only health insurance (so the stabilize+repatriate insurance would be dirt-cheap) and 30K reserved for flight/repatriation costs (in cases of health, criminal, or other reasons), that would be fine. 

 

This would be a good solution to allow for the end of the current more complicated processes of checking bank-balances, incomes, etc.  Ideally, one could collect their refund/balance of this sum at the airport, just after clearing immigration on the way out.

 

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

... What difference does it make if you spend down to 10 baht as long as you top up before the THREE MONTH seasoning period begins? 

So that this 100K is available for health and "fly home" money, which could arise at any time.  Those with more funds/insurance could opt for longer-term health-treatment in Thailand.

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Maybe there are some who have, indeed, been taken in by the delusional BS nonsense which the British Embassy has been spouting, claiming to have reached agreement with the IB on an alternative method of proving monthly income on the basis of transfers into Thai bank accounts! 

What is, "IB?"

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

...

 

So that this 100K is available for health and "fly home" money, which could arise at any time.  Those with more funds/insurance could opt for longer-term health-treatment in Thailand.

OK. Sounds logical. The chances of that rule happening I see as almost zero. People often try to read the minds of the motivations and thought processes of Thai immigration. I find that folly. 

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If it was a reasonable amount, frozen by the Thai govt, and only used to cover actual costs - say 100K Baht total - and 70K was used as the deductible for emergency-only health insurance (so the stabilize+repatriate insurance would be dirt-cheap) and 30K reserved for flight/repatriation costs (in cases of health, criminal, or other reasons), that would be fine. 

 

This would be a good solution to allow for the end of the current more complicated processes of checking bank-balances, incomes, etc.  Ideally, one could collect their refund/balance of this sum at the airport, just after clearing immigration on the way out.

 

So that this 100K is available for health and "fly home" money, which could arise at any time.  Those with more funds/insurance could opt for longer-term health-treatment in Thailand.

Since they don't let sick people fly how would that work?